Remember the minarets?

bonkey

Some time ago, we had a good ol' ding-dong of a thread, discussing how the Swiss were or weren't completely out of line to ban minarets.

There were, at that point, two minarets in the country.

In the past week in the Swiss media, it seems like there's quite a storm brewing with moves to start a referendum to ban the burqha.

There are, apparently, less then 100 people estimated to wear this in Switzerland.

The finest democracy on earth rolls on...

freyners

bonkey wrote:

In the past week in the Swiss media, it seems like there's quite a storm brewing with moves to start a referendum to ban the burqha

Burkha or burqa?? think there the same thing though??
and ya, plain ridiculous

bonkey

freyners wrote: »

Burkha or burqa??

Burqa. Typo on my part.

freyners

sorry mate, wasnt trying to pull ya on it, just confused on my part

back o/t
i think that this is a load of sh*te, and its a lose-lose situation now whichever way they do it,
if there is a referendum they trying to disallow religious freedom
if there isnt a referendum, there not standing up for womans rights

T-Square

bonkey wrote: »

In the past week in the Swiss media, it seems like there's quite a storm brewing with moves to start a referendum to ban the burqha.

There are, apparently, less then 100 people estimated to wear this in Switzerland.

The finest democracy...

Its a political statement, which I support.
I wish we had it here.

Nodin

T-Square wrote: »

Its a political statement, which I support.
I wish we had it here.

Well, its actually a sectarian statement, and I thought we still had quite enough of that crap here.

wes

I am honestly confused how this can be seen as supporting freedom for anyone. Telling Women what to wear is the kind of crap the West complains about the Taliban and Saudi Arabia doing, and some Western countries seem to want to emulate, the worst aspect of those nutters.

anymore

bonkey wrote: »

Some time ago, we had a good ol' ding-dong of a thread, discussing how the Swiss were or weren't completely out of line to ban minarets.

There were, at that point, two minarets in the country.

In the past week in the Swiss media, it seems like there's quite a storm brewing with moves to start a referendum to ban the burqha.

There are, apparently, less then 100 people estimated to wear this in Switzerland.

The finest democracy on earth rolls on...

Perhaps they feel that their cultural values are worth protecting.

T-Square

Nodin wrote: »

Well, its actually a sectarian statement, and I thought we still had quite enough of that crap here.

You are confused, next!

dlofnep

I wonder if nuns are banned from wearing... nun stuff.

anymore

dlofnep wrote: »

I wonder if nuns are banned from wearing... nun stuff.

Nuns are a very good example of a traditional group who have dramatically adjusted the type of clothes they wear and modernised; in many cases Nuns are weaingr clothing which is almost indistinguishable from non - religous.

Nodin

anymore wrote: »

Perhaps they feel that their cultural values are worth protecting.

Or perhaps they've a long history of xenophobia....
http://books.google.ie/books?id=Z2XB8cJWC80C&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=verjudung+switzerland&source=bl&ots=XuuvWxT6bH&sig=NkMsGAaShvZTe1ZLE3y-PNsEFU0&hl=en&ei=zfnhS5_gLJTu0wS0k-GaAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=verjudung%20switzerland&f=false

Nodin

T-Square wrote: »

You are confused, next!

Islam is a religion. Therefore discriminating against it is sectarian. We have had sectarianism for centuries in this country, and therefore have quite enough to sort out without importing more.

dlofnep

anymore wrote: »

Nuns are a very good example of a traditional group who have dramatically adjusted the type of clothes they wear and modernised; in many cases Nuns are weaingr clothing which is almost indistinguishable from non - religous.

No they are not. Nuns are still wearing the same clothes that they wore 50 years ago. My mother works for Nuns as a receptionist. Lovely old ladies that they are - but there is really hardly any difference between the clothing that they wear and a burqa.

ninty9er

This isn't an easily decided argument, but banning the burqa would preclude anyone from wearing one, not just a Muslim. I know that's strange arguing, but it's a law that will not apply to Muslims only, but will, in the main, affect Muslim women only.

I'd find it very unnerving not to be able to see someone's face if I'm having an arm's length conversation with them.

People are entitled to their freedoms, but Swiss democracy is one of the most democratic kinds.

For example, I believe (I may be wrong) it is not allowable in certain countries to have a crucifix in public places, the bruqa has a similar religious significance.

This is not xenophobic, if however the Swiss were to decide people were not permitted to be Muslim or practice Islam, then that would be xenophobic.

There's 2 sides to this particular coin though, I can see both, but personally I'd vote in favour of a ban.

ninty9er

dlofnep wrote: »

No they are not. Nuns are still wearing the same clothes that they wore 50 years ago. My mother works for Nuns as a receptionist. Lovely old ladies that they are - but there is really hardly any difference between the clothing that they wear and a burqa.

I have interaction with a nun and a preist on a daily basis for work. Neither of them are distinguishable as such. I've seen nuns dressed like that, but it's not common.

wes

ninty9er wrote: »

This isn't an easily decided argument, but banning the burqa would preclude anyone from wearing one, not just a Muslim. I know that's strange arguing, but it's a law that will not apply to Muslims only, but will, in the main, affect Muslim women only.

You could argue that a ban on Homosexual activities doesn't discriminate against Gay people, if it was applied to people of all sexual orientations. A similar argument is also offered against Gay marriage, that it doesn't discriminate as a straight person can't marry the same sex. It is of course a bull**** cop out. the law is aimed at Muslims in this instance, and pretend otherwise is a ridiculous cop out, no different than the cop out against Gay marriage.

ninty9er wrote: »

I'd find it very unnerving not to be able to see someone's face if I'm having an arm's length conversation with them.

Hardly a basis for a ban. If we were to ban things on such a basis, things would just get silly.

ninty9er wrote: »

People are entitled to their freedoms, but Swiss democracy is one of the most democratic kinds.

Well, clearly a majority of the electorate in Switzerland don't think that way. After-all, no one has the freedom to build an minarets there.

ninty9er wrote: »

For example, I believe (I may be wrong) it is not allowable in certain countries to have a crucifix in public places, the bruqa has a similar religious significance.

I think the only place, is Saudi Arabia, and I think emulating them in general is a bad idea. Personally, i wouldn't want to keep such company, but it seems many are happy to do so.

ninty9er wrote: »

This is not xenophobic, if however the Swiss were to decide people were not permitted to be Muslim or practice Islam, then that would be xenophobic.

Its a law about protecting there culture from foreign influences, and all that bollox. So its very much Xenophobic.

dlofnep

ninty9er wrote: »

I have interaction with a nun and a preist on a daily basis for work. Neither of them are distinguishable as such. I've seen nuns dressed like that, but it's not common.

I'm not sure about that!

It's moot either way - My point is that, there was never an issue with the way Nuns dressed in the past (which is obviously to cover up). So why should there be one now with Muslims?

ninty9er

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm not sure about that!

It's moot either way - My point is that, there was never an issue with the way Nuns dressed in the past (which is obviously to cover up). So why should there be one now with Muslims?

The Swiss, I believe, are being proactive BEFORE it becomes an issue...many would welcome such politics in most countries.

dlofnep

ninty9er wrote: »

The Swiss, I believe, are being proactive BEFORE it becomes an issue...many would welcome such politics in most countries.

Ah yes - The Modh Coinniollach of politics. Banning stuff arbitrarily on the basis of something that might happen.

AlekSmart

Ah yes - The Modh Coinniollach of politics. Banning stuff arbitrarily on the basis of something that might happen.

Yup...good for the Switzers..probably explains why they ain`t top of the queue for a German/IMF bailout....:)

RayM

ninty9er wrote: »

The Swiss, I believe, are being proactive BEFORE it becomes an issue...many would welcome such politics in most countries.

They're not being proactive. They're seeking to take something that is far from being an endemic problem (or even a tiny, trifling iota of a minor issue), and using it as a conduit through which to stick two great big fingers up at their Muslim population. Just like they did with the minarets.

Manic Moran

wes wrote: »

Its a law about protecting there culture from foreign influences, and all that bollox. So its very much Xenophobic.

Out of interest, I note that two predominantly muslim countries, Turkey and Tunisia, also bar wearing burkas in government buildings, schools, and universities. (And, I believe, they even go as far as to ban hijabs, Turkey draws the line at allowing the basortusu, a sort of loose headscarf, in university).

Would you say that these are also for xenophobic reasons?

NTM

nachoman

I think they look very stylish, very good in the winter I'd say, like a scarf and a hat rolled into one.

Executive Steve

nachoman wrote: »

I think they look very stylish, very good in the winter I'd say, like a scarf and a hat rolled into one.

You're thinking of the Hajib, which can and does indeed look very stylish and which i personally have no problem with at all, with the Niqaab (which covers the face) and the Burqha (which is literally a cloth with a few pinholes in it)



^ Hijab



^ Niqaab



^ Burqha
There are big differences between the extents of the various bans being proposed in the various countries and I personally feel there are also degrees of difference in acceptability involved as to which I am comfortable with, so please lets all be absolutely clear that we're all referring to the same garment here in case we get our wires crossed

Peanut

Manic Moran wrote: »

Out of interest, I note that two predominantly muslim countries, Turkey and Tunisia, also bar wearing burkas in government buildings, schools, and universities. (And, I believe, they even go as far as to ban hijabs, Turkey draws the line at allowing the basortusu, a sort of loose headscarf, in university).

Would you say that these are also for xenophobic reasons?

NTM

I think in the case of Turkey at least, there was a sort of xenophobic element behind this during the foundation of the state, in terms of Ataturk wanting to reduce what he considered the retrograde Arabic influences in Turkish society at the time.

In present day Turkey the headscarf (hijab) ban is one of the most contentious social issues. Supporters of the ban fear that moves to ease it will give too much power to hard-line Islamists. On a practical level, secularists don't want to encourage a situation where they may be forced by social/peer pressure to adopt the headscarf if a majority in their workplace or university are wearing them.

On the other hand, this leads to fantastically absurd workarounds such as women in certain jobs wearing a wig, over a scarf, which itself is over their hair.

Euro_Kraut

I am generally uncomfortable with the Govt deciding what people can or cannot wear. I find people who wear sunglasses indoors to be very off putting. However I am not sure there should be a ban on that.

I am also wary of the motives of the party that are proposing this ban. They are the SVP and are responsible for these memorable poster among others:







I am not convinced that the first vote on Minert bans was promoted out of respect for Swiss architecture laws and planning regulations. Similarly, I am not convinced that this is motivated out of concern for women liberty and the off chance the the burqua will be used a disguise by criminals. I think the motives are more likely racial rabble rousing for political gain.

irishconvert

I was speaking to a Swiss Muslim (a convert) and he told me that since the ban on minerats that Muslims have become more "religious". The mosques are full for all 5 daily prayers now and not just friday prayers. At least something good is coming out of the Swiss' bigotry. Any attacks on Muslims will only make them stronger :-)

Flamed Diving

irishconvert wrote: »

I was speaking to a Swiss Muslim (a convert) and he told me that since the ban on minerats that Muslims have become more "religious". The mosques are full for all 5 daily prayers now and not just friday prayers. At least something good is coming out of the Swiss' bigotry. Any attacks on Muslims will only make them stronger :-)

...and more... fundamentally-y...

Nodin

Flamed Diving wrote: »

...and more... fundamentally-y...

More than likely. Persecuting people for being catholic didn't work here. Trying to force the people to become more secular in Iran made them more religous. Theres a clear pattern that people seem to be willfully ignoring.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

More than likely. Persecuting people for being catholic didn't work here. Trying to force the people to become more secular in Iran made them more religous. Theres a clear pattern that people seem to be willfully ignoring.

Why should secular people suffer for the irrational superstitions of religious people. Islam and christianity are as deserving of as much respect as the Flying Spaghetti Monster.