A new wave of republican violence

Denerick · 13-04-2010 8:24pm

paky wrote: »

What does the Real IRA think its going to achieve that the Provisional IRA did not achieve in its 30 year campaign?

The Good Friday Agreement is the best deal republicans can get. They must learn to compromise and adapt to the current political climate. This is not 1916.

You really think that they think? McNulty is a good example of their kind.

danman · 13-04-2010 8:30pm

You freestaters do what you do best, live comfortably with the thought that you dont live in the occupied province less then 3 hours up the road, and forget about the plight and tension your fellow countrymen live with, but dont forget to condemn them when they lash out, Im sure they give two f*cks to what you think giving the Souths cowardly record of indifference.

funny, isn't it?
He hates us in the south, yet, strangely, he wants to unite the island with us?

Go back under your rock.

amacachi · 13-04-2010 8:34pm

Denerick wrote: »

I'm sorry. I only assume you're a troll because you sound an awful lot like one. And also because you ignore any criticism of your politics, which sounds quite a lot like an idiot who puts his hands over his ears and screams 'REPUBLIC!!! WE NEED A REPUBLIC!!! FREE STATERS CAN FÚCK OFF!!!'

He actually reminds me of that wonderful breed of people from the south who'll sing rebel songs and say "**** the brits" and in the next breath start their xenophobic crap against someone with a northern accent.

LordSutch · 13-04-2010 8:45pm

k_mac wrote: »

The IRA was originally formed to protect the rights of catholics in the North. This mission has been completed. All thats left now are power hungry sociopaths who don't have the respect of anyone. There will be no Good Friday agreement for you when you are caught. You will go to jail for a long time. There will be no public outcry when you go on hunger strike because you have no support from the people of this country. You will pay for your crimes like the criminals that you are.

I'm not even going to bother having a go at McNulty32 because he is quite obviously a raving Republican of the militant kind, but but just to say this k_mac, the IRA you speak of (I presume you mean the Provo's) were one of the most vile, power hungry sociopathic terrorist groups ever to walk this earth, they bombed, knee capped, extorted, maimed, mutilated, and they murdered on a regular basis > But I'm not so sure if they ever "protected the rights of catholics in the North" . . .

And as for this new shower the 'Real IRA', well I'd say that they aspire to be just as deadly as the filth that went before them (the PIRA).

anglo_celt · 13-04-2010 9:00pm

moonpurple wrote: »

welcome billy the bomber to boards, your address is a gaelic location that does not exist, just as the aim for the rira and cira is an impossible make believe destination that no amount of bangs will make real,

Billy the Bomber??????

McNulty32 · 13-04-2010 10:01pm

Camelot wrote: »

I'm not even going to bother having a go at McNulty32 because he is quite obviously a raving Republican of the militant kind, but but just to say this k_mac, the IRA you speak of (I presume you mean the Provo's) were one of the most vile, power hungry sociopathic terrorist groups ever to walk this earth, they bombed, knee capped, extorted, maimed, mutilated, and they murdered on a regular basis > But I'm not so sure if they ever "protected the rights of catholics in the North" . . .

And as for this new shower the 'Real IRA', well I'd say that they aspire to be just as deadly as the filth that went before them (the PIRA).

And what about the British Army that shoot, beat and brutalised countless scores of innocent people, burned poor nationalists out of their homes and aaided Loyalist pograms in banishing nationalists from intergrated neighbourhoods?

How about the RUC/B-Specials/PSNI/British police who passed on weaponary, info and logistical support to eager loyalist murderers to kill innocent people because they were Catholic?

Were these folk not also as vile as the IRA you hate so much?

Dannyboy83 · 13-04-2010 10:12pm

McNulty32, do you think they (dissident republicans) will try to assassinate Gerry Adams?

What would your reaction to this be?

Denerick · 13-04-2010 10:30pm

McNulty32 wrote: »

And what about the British Army that shoot, beat and brutalised countless scores of innocent people, burned poor nationalists out of their homes and aaided Loyalist pograms in banishing nationalists from intergrated neighbourhoods?

How about the RUC/B-Specials/PSNI/British police who passed on weaponary, info and logistical support to eager loyalist murderers to kill innocent people because they were Catholic?

Were these folk not also as vile as the IRA you hate so much?

Why do you not respond to posts critical of your politics?

MagicSean · 13-04-2010 11:12pm

Camelot wrote: »

I'm not even going to bother having a go at McNulty32 because he is quite obviously a raving Republican of the militant kind, but but just to say this k_mac, the IRA you speak of (I presume you mean the Provo's) were one of the most vile, power hungry sociopathic terrorist groups ever to walk this earth, they bombed, knee capped, extorted, maimed, mutilated, and they murdered on a regular basis > But I'm not so sure if they ever "protected the rights of catholics in the North" . . .

And as for this new shower the 'Real IRA', well I'd say that they aspire to be just as deadly as the filth that went before them (the PIRA).

Nobody can deny that the rights of catholics in the north were non-existant when the PIRA began their violent campaign. The PIRA highlighted this problem. Wether we agree with their methods or not they were pushed to this action by the way they were treated and the result of their actions was to bring everyone to the table. Maybe they did become criminals but they were born from opression and frustration and violence visited upon them by the authorities of the time. They were a proportional response at the time. But this kind of response is no longer needed or acceptable. On the other hand the dissident republicans were born of greed and blood lust.

Denerick · 13-04-2010 11:16pm

k_mac wrote: »

Nobody can deny that the rights of catholics in the north were non-existant when the PIRA began their violent campaign. The PIRA highlighted this problem. Wether we agree with their methods or not they were pushed to this action by the way they were treated and the result of their actions was to bring everyone to the table. Maybe they did become criminals but they were born from opression and frustration and violence visited upon them by the authorities of the time. They were a proportional response at the time. But this kind of response is no longer needed or acceptable. On the other hand the dissident republicans were born of greed and blood lust.

Thats such a cop out and it makes a mockery of the non violent civil rights struggle led by courageous men and women from Derry to Down. The IRA capitalised on a groundswell of discontent and funneled it into a military campaign oblivious to popular consent and devoid of even the barest trace of chivalry. Its an out and out tragedy the way the civil rights movement has practically gotten written out of Northern Irish history because a few gun toting fanatics dictated the course of the Troubles.

MagicSean · 13-04-2010 11:23pm

Denerick wrote: »

Thats such a cop out and it makes a mockery of the non violent civil rights struggle led by courageous men and women from Derry to Down. The IRA capitalised on a groundswell of discontent and funneled it into a military campaign oblivious to popular consent and devoid of even the barest trace of chivalry. Its an out and out tragedy the way the civil rights movement has practically gotten written out of Northern Irish history because a few gun toting fanatics dictated the course of the Troubles.

Have you heard of Bloody Sunday? It was a civil rights march that was destroyed by "gun toting fanatics" in army uniforms. They were British soldiers. I'm not going to try to justify the PIRAs actions. I'm just trying to illustrate how their origins differ from that of the RIRA and why they had so much more support. There is no longer a "cause".

Denerick · 13-04-2010 11:29pm

k_mac wrote: »

Have you heard of Bloody Sunday? It was a civil rights march that was destroyed by "gun toting fanatics" in army uniforms. They were British soldiers. I'm not going to try to justify the PIRAs actions. I'm just trying to illustrate how their origins differ from that of the RIRA and why they had so much more support. There is no longer a "cause".

There's lots of blame to go round, and I didn't mean to fly off the handle like that. There is plenty of tragic stories that completely exonerate the frustrations of young men who joined the PIRA. But I'd love it if people stopped having this inchoate respect for the Provo's - John Hume didn't pick up a gun after bloody Sunday. And neither did the overwhelming majority of the nationalist community. They are the real victims of the Northern Irish Troubles, not the misled young men who were driven to violence by intolerable provocation.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 14-04-2010 12:34am

Denerick wrote: »

I hear a lot of really crap opinions in Dublin pubs from people once they hear my Northern accent. Some come out with the most Republican BS you can imagine, completely unthought opinions from people who know nothing about the North. It annoys me.

Ok I had a feeling you meant something like this and I completely agree. What what you originally said "Nothing annoys me more than southern tossers trying to have an opinion about the North. I suppose they were right there in the middle of Derry on Bloody Sunday? Makes me sick." is completely different to that. I think you should be careful with that kind of statement because a lot of people in the south have a genuine interest in the north(often due to having relations there) and take the time to read books, visit the north and form opinions based on that rather than political soundbites and the latest hollywood adaption of a troubles event.

k mac wrote:

The IRA was originally formed to protect the rights of catholics in the North. This mission has been completed.

This is such an outrageous statement it's very clear you know nothing about the history of the troubles.

You're not alone however. There's a book by Henry McDonald called "gunsmoke and mirrors: how sinn fein dressed up defeat as victory" which is dedicated to the bizarre notion that the PIRA campaign was somehow an extension of the civil rights movement. A movement which was originally called the "Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association".

McNulty32 is getting a lot of stick on this thread but believe me he/she is a lot more educated about the conflict than many of those arguing against.

LordSutch · 14-04-2010 9:43am

k_mac wrote: »

Nobody can deny that the rights of catholics in the north were non-existant when the PIRA began their violent campaign. The PIRA highlighted this problem. Wether we agree with their methods or not they were pushed to this action by the way they were treated and the result of their actions was to bring everyone to the table. Maybe they did become criminals but they were born from opression and frustration and violence visited upon them by the authorities of the time. They were a proportional response at the time. But this kind of response is no longer needed or acceptable. On the other hand the dissident republicans were born of greed and blood lust.

No no no, there was never any need for the actions of the PIRA (Bombings, knee cappings, murders, etc), you only have to google their actions to see the catalogue of terror & distruction they brought upon everybody on this island for 35 years, including Northern Nationalists.

Bombings & murders were not acceptable then, and they're not acceptable now!

Exile 1798 · 14-04-2010 10:01am

Denerick wrote: »

Thats such a cop out and it makes a mockery of the non violent civil rights struggle led by courageous men and women from Derry to Down. The IRA capitalised on a groundswell of discontent and funneled it into a military campaign oblivious to popular consent and devoid of even the barest trace of chivalry. Its an out and out tragedy the way the civil rights movement has practically gotten written out of Northern Irish history because a few gun toting fanatics dictated the course of the Troubles.

You'll find Republicans were prominent throughout the Civil Rights movement. Indeed, that was one of the key planks of Unionist demagoguery at the time.

I don't think this period has been written out of history at all.

gandalf · 14-04-2010 10:09am

What I love about these NI threads is they descend into "they did this in the past" "the Army butchered/oppressed us in the past".

That's the past and really you need to look beyond it.

The vast majority of people on the WHOLE Island of Ireland spoke in 1998 and they stated categorically that they wanted a peaceful solution.

The crowd that call themselves the Real IRA or Continuity IRA or IRA Lite or "I can't believe its not the IRA" or whatever sad little moniker they give themselves these days are working against the majority will of the people of Ireland be they Catholic/Protestant/Nationalist/Unionist etc etc. They are working outside the law and therefore they are nothing but common criminals and should be treated as such.

They are on the same level as rapists, drug dealers, thieves and murderers. The bombing the other day was the dying bark of the crazed dog of Republicanism.

They are irrelevant and they don't like it.

Dannyboy83 · 14-04-2010 10:11am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

McNulty32 is getting a lot of stick on this thread but believe me he/she is a lot more educated about the conflict than many of those arguing against.

I'm not giving any stick; I just want an answer to the questions I asked:

dannyboy83 wrote:

Q1
McNulty32, do you think they (dissident republicans) will try to assassinate Gerry Adams?

What would your reaction to this be?

dannyboy83 wrote:

Q2
Can you clarify what legitimate targets are?

Obviously, British troops, bases and intelligence are considered legitimate.

What else?
PSNI?
Sinn Fein?

Denerick · 14-04-2010 10:38am

McNulty may well be more educated about the conflict than most here, but he certainly hasn't displayed that kind of level of learning. All I've read are repitions of soundbytes used throughout the generations in order to legitimise the kinds of violence the Irish electorate have consistently renounced.

MagicSean · 14-04-2010 11:07am

Denerick wrote: »

There's lots of blame to go round, and I didn't mean to fly off the handle like that. There is plenty of tragic stories that completely exonerate the frustrations of young men who joined the PIRA. But I'd love it if people stopped having this inchoate respect for the Provo's - John Hume didn't pick up a gun after bloody Sunday. And neither did the overwhelming majority of the nationalist community. They are the real victims of the Northern Irish Troubles, not the misled young men who were driven to violence by intolerable provocation.

I didn't mean to show any respect to the provisionals. I just find them less repulsive than the dissidents because they had a cause that was understandable.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

This is such an outrageous statement it's very clear you know nothing about the history of the troubles.

And it's clear you know little of the reality of the situation when the PIRA started their campaign back in the 70s. The oppression of Catholics was the reason so many joined the PIRA.

Camelot wrote: »

No no no, there was never any need for the actions of the PIRA (Bombings, knee cappings, murders, etc), you only have to google their actions to see the catalogue of terror & distruction they brought upon everybody on this island for 35 years, including Northern Nationalists.

Bombings & murders were not acceptable then, and they're not acceptable now!

I don't recall saying bombings and murders were acceptable and I resent that implication. All I said was that the effect of their actions was to highlight the lack of rights of catholics in NI.

moonpurple · 14-04-2010 12:07pm

the good friday agreement

DECLARATION OF SUPPORT
1. We, the participants in the multi-party negotiations, believe that the
agreement we have negotiated offers a truly historic opportunity for a new
beginning.
2. The tragedies of the past have left a deep and profoundly regrettable
legacy of suffering. We must never forget those who have died or been
injured, and their families. But we can best honour them through a fresh
start, in which we firmly dedicate ourselves to the achievement of
reconciliation, tolerance, and mutual trust, and to the protection and
vindication of the human rights of all.
3. We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the
basis of relationships within Northern Ireland, between North and South,
and between these islands.
4. We reaffirm our total and absolute commitment to exclusively
democratic and peaceful means of resolving differences on political
issues, and our opposition to any use or threat of force by others for any
political purpose, whether in regard to this agreement or otherwise

FTA69 · 14-04-2010 12:08pm

There is no dissident group plotting to kill Gerry Adams, none at all. They've even explicitly declared that such a thing is fallacious. The only person perpetuating that nonsense is Gerry Adams himself, it's a process of felon-setting and wagon-circling, aimed at rallying the troops against the dastardly dissidents.

FTA69 · 14-04-2010 12:19pm

As for the current campaigns, as much as it may irk some posters on this board; those currently engaged in armed actions aren't motivated solely by greed and criminality, some of them may well be (a small minority) but the majority of them are motivated by the same set of circumstances which previously motivated participation in armed groups in this country. The whole "dying bark, last gasp" lark has been perpetuated since the 1800s, the same was said about the Border Campaign, the Hunger Strikes, 1867 etc. The fact is that while there is a British occupation of this country, rightly or wrongly there will be a small group of people who will seek to challenge this by force of arms.

Personally I believe that there are no viable conditions for an armed struggle in Ireland today, Irish Republicanism has suffered a massive defeat in recent years and that needs to be addressed. Someone above asked a very pertinent question, "what do they hope to achieve that the Provos couldn't?" As far as I'm concerned the likes of the Real IRA are simply seeking to replicate the failed strategies of the past, only they haven't a hope of escalating it to that level. The IRA's strength lay in the fact they could prevent an internal settlement over their heads, the Real IRA and others can't and as such they are in a position of weakness.

If Irish Republicanism is ever to become viable as a supported political ideology it must adapt itself in order to become relevant to the issues of today, and the south is instrumental in that; if Republicans can't come up with answers and analyses of the likes of unemployment, NAMA and all the rotten manifestations of Irish (and global) capitalism then it will remain a complete irrelevance. Jumping out of the shadows and whacking the odd Brit isn't going to change that, nor is it going to alter Britain's presence in this country. In fact, you could whack soldiers every day of the week but unless there is a large body of people behind you then it will change f*ck all.

The only way Republican objectives are going to be reached is through a mass movement of working people in this country demanding that they be implemented. That work must be done within the workplace and communities, within many other "sites of struggle" to borrow a phrase from a senior Sinn Féiner. Conspiratorial armed groups simply offer more of the same sh*t that has achieved nothing in the past.

Jaap · 14-04-2010 12:54pm

FTA69 wrote: »

The fact is that while there is a British occupation of this country, rightly or wrongly there will be a small group of people who will seek to challenge this by force of arms.

You say "this country"...I assume you mean Northern Ireland even though you are apparently from Cork? We all know the Republic isn't governed by the British Government.
Northern Ireland is part of the UK...it has British and Irish inhabitants...I was born in Belfast and have lived there for 30 years...I am British...are you saying I am "occupying" the country where I was born...and where my parents and grandparents who were all British were born???

Dannyboy83 · 14-04-2010 1:00pm

FTA69 wrote: »

If Irish Republicanism is ever to become viable as a supported political ideology it must adapt itself in order to become relevant to the issues of today, and the south is instrumental in that; if Republicans can't come up with answers and analyses of the likes of unemployment, NAMA and all the rotten manifestations of Irish (and global) capitalism then it will remain a complete irrelevance.

The very first reply in this thread said much the same:

northwest100 wrote:

Would you not agree that reunification would only succeed if there's economic, political and social stability?
How would any of this be possible with a civil war?
It would be more constructive if north and south worked together towards developing a productive economy which benefits everyone on the island.
Once there's stability, perhaps reunification is feasible..we certainly won't find out with a return to sectarian violence.

Yet those who would support the dissidents, have said in this thread that anyone from the South who doesn't support them is a "Cowardly FreeStater".

McNulty32 wrote:

You freestaters do what you do best, live comfortably with the thought that you dont live in the occupied province less then 3 hours up the road, and forget about the plight and tension your fellow countrymen live with, but dont forget to condemn them when they lash out, Im sure they give two f*cks to what you think giving the Souths cowardly record of indifference.

And they don't care about our laws;

McNulty32 wrote:

you can stick your 'laws' where the sun dont shine, we dont care, and we dont care for the laws in the South either

I think you hit the nail on the head FTA69.
They will remain a complete irrelevance, but a lethal & deluded one nonetheless.

FTA69 · 14-04-2010 1:01pm

Jaap wrote: »

You say "this country"...I assume you mean Northern Ireland even though you are apparently from Cork? We all know the Republic isn't governed by the British Government.

By this country I mean Ireland, a part of which is under British occupation.

I was born in Belfast and have lived there for 30 years...I am British...are you saying I am "occupying" the country where I was born...and where my parents and grandparents who were all British were born???

No, there is a big difference between those who have lived in Ireland for 400 odd years, who were born and raised here etc and the British government which claimed and continues to claim sovereignty over a part of this country. I'm not trying to belittle your identity or anything, but Irish Protestants and their descendants long precede the concept of "British".

FTA69 · 14-04-2010 1:04pm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Well to be honest I've been labelled as a "dissident Republican" as I'm a Republican who would be anti-GFA. That having been said, I don't support any current armed actions and as I have outlined above I believe them to be an abject and utter waste of time.

As I said, the only battle to be fought nowadays is the battle of ideas and if you can't garner political support amongst working people in Ireland (who are getting f*cked over on a daily basis) then you're p*ssing into the wind.

Jaap · 14-04-2010 2:21pm

FTA69 wrote: »

No, there is a big difference between those who have lived in Ireland for 400 odd years, who were born and raised here etc and the British government which claimed and continues to claim sovereignty over a part of this country. I'm not trying to belittle your identity or anything, but Irish Protestants and their descendants long precede the concept of "British".

So there are people in the island of Ireland who are 400 years old???

Nobody will belittle my British identity in Northern Ireland...or I wouldn't want anybody to belittle anybody who says they are Irish in Northern Ireland even though it is part of the UK!!! I welcome and respect everyone in Northern Ireland...British, Irish, Polish, people from Asia, Africa etc.!!!

You say "the British government claim sovereignty over a part of this country"...the Republic governs itself...what are you on about???

I give up on people like you!!

McNulty32 · 14-04-2010 3:59pm

FTA69 wrote: »

As for the current campaigns, as much as it may irk some posters on this board; those currently engaged in armed actions aren't motivated solely by greed and criminality, some of them may well be (a small minority) but the majority of them are motivated by the same set of circumstances which previously motivated participation in armed groups in this country. The whole "dying bark, last gasp" lark has been perpetuated since the 1800s, the same was said about the Border Campaign, the Hunger Strikes, 1867 etc. The fact is that while there is a British occupation of this country, rightly or wrongly there will be a small group of people who will seek to challenge this by force of arms.

Personally I believe that there are no viable conditions for an armed struggle in Ireland today, Irish Republicanism has suffered a massive defeat in recent years and that needs to be addressed. Someone above asked a very pertinent question, "what do they hope to achieve that the Provos couldn't?" As far as I'm concerned the likes of the Real IRA are simply seeking to replicate the failed strategies of the past, only they haven't a hope of escalating it to that level. The IRA's strength lay in the fact they could prevent an internal settlement over their heads, the Real IRA and others can't and as such they are in a position of weakness.

If Irish Republicanism is ever to become viable as a supported political ideology it must adapt itself in order to become relevant to the issues of today, and the south is instrumental in that; if Republicans can't come up with answers and analyses of the likes of unemployment, NAMA and all the rotten manifestations of Irish (and global) capitalism then it will remain a complete irrelevance. Jumping out of the shadows and whacking the odd Brit isn't going to change that, nor is it going to alter Britain's presence in this country. In fact, you could whack soldiers every day of the week but unless there is a large body of people behind you then it will change f*ck all.

The only way Republican objectives are going to be reached is through a mass movement of working people in this country demanding that they be implemented. That work must be done within the workplace and communities, within many other "sites of struggle" to borrow a phrase from a senior Sinn Féiner. Conspiratorial armed groups simply offer more of the same sh*t that has achieved nothing in the past.

While I agree with a your argument in the most part, there would be parts that concern me, you say that republicanism has been dealt a massive defeat in recent years, that is probably the case but there were those and not some micro faction as has been alluded to, that did'nt participate in the Provos path of treachery,there is a clear distinction between the likes of the 32CSM, IRSP, RSF, RNU etc, and while nowhere near as large as the Provos, these groups ideals are vastly different from the Provisionals.

You seem to be taking the social democratic line to solve the national question, by comparing the likes of the NAMA debacle and working class bread and butter issues in the South and tying them into the republican cause in the North, its not workable the Sticks tried, it was a failure. It was the cutting edge of PIRA actions in the North and the tackling of drug dealers in the South that garnered support for the movement. While it may well be the organisation of the working class to make change, it's never going to happen.

The RIRA are in the position the Provos were in 1969, maybe even alittle stronger, while not a dominant force give it 2 to 3 years, and they will have as much support as the Provos had in the 70s/80s, this is already being witnessed up North with the 32CSM growing at a rapid rate, the people of the 6 are sick and tired of political parties with selfish interests at heart, and before the police state scenario gets any worse, they are taking action, and it wont be through the ballot boxes that achieve nothing,

McNulty32 · 14-04-2010 4:03pm

Jaap wrote: »

FTA69 wrote: »

So there are people in the island of Ireland who are 400 years old???

Nobody will belittle my British identity in Northern Ireland...or I wouldn't want anybody to belittle anybody who says they are Irish in Northern Ireland even though it is part of the UK!!! I welcome and respect everyone in Northern Ireland...British, Irish, Polish, people from Asia, Africa etc.!!!

You say "the British government claim sovereignty over a part of this country"...the Republic governs itself...what are you on about???

I give up on people like you!!

We welcome those of all denominations, creeds and race to Ireland to live and flourish, but British Army, RUC/PSNI militia, MI5 spooks and pro-Britishg hate groups that attempt to usurp Irish sovereignty are not welcome

IrishTonyO · 14-04-2010 4:19pm

McNulty32 wrote: »

Jaap wrote: »

We welcome those of all denominations, creeds and race to Ireland to live and flourish, but British Army, RUC/PSNI militia, MI5 spooks and pro-Britishg hate groups that attempt to usurp Irish sovereignty are not welcome

Well the majority of the population both North and South have already voted for the current situation, so if you can't deal with democracy run off and find a nice socialist or communist state to live in.

A new wave of republican violence

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