DTT Mt Leinster, Ch45 blocking Presely in the South East

Digifriendly · 24-11-2009 8:27pm

mrdtv wrote: »

Very interesting. The problem for Divis at the moment is that there is CCI from the very strong Caldbeck COM muxes which won't go away until DSO in 2012. The Scottish signal is Cambret Hill which will be coming in from behind or the side. At Cloughey with suitable aerials you can get Cambret Hill, Clermont Carn, Caldbeck, Winter Hill (soon the high power on everything, next Wednesday), the Isle of Man repeaters including the SFN, Moel-y-Parc (fully high power from there tomorrow), Kippure and a few others. Talk about RF congestion. East and South Down will get HD from December 2nd off Winter Hill if you can get it (must be out of way of Newcastle relay), and from Caldbeck etc next summer. So far from being a DTT desert East and South Down and North Antrim coast will have Freeview HD long before Divis viewers : new mast has to be erected. BTW you friend's main TV probably has Cambret Hill channels in the 800's: Freeview boxes sort on either strongest signal (which would be Cambret Hill) or lowest frequencies ( Divis is Group A and Cambret Group B, so Divis loads first.). This is also why a lot of boxes put the RTE channels in the 800's because they are higher frequencies in East Down.

Just wondering about North East Antrim compared to further south into East Antrim. I haven't see too many aerials in and around Ballycastle aiming for Scotland, in fact only one very large high gain which I presume is for Black Hill. Know that around Carnlough/Cushendall there have always been aerials for Scotland. In fact going back to 1970's these places could only get decent TV reception from Scotland as being in a 'bowl' like Ballycastle they were blocked out for decent local reception until they got their own relays. But wondering about further north whether DTT will be easily received. Would love to have further info. on this. BTW I used to live in the port of Larne (1970's) and my best friend got better reception from Scotland than from NI! Also my wife is from Carrickfergus and reception from Scotland there is pretty good too although not a lot of aerials pointing across the Irish Sea. Maybe this is due to fact that Divis has always been easily receivable in Carrickfergus which is also a great spot for RTE as there is a straight line through the Mournes to Clermont Carn.

GiftGrub100 · 24-11-2009 11:21pm

I think some more emails to RTENL are the order of the day, what a waste of money and energy to test a signal and transmitter channel that they are unlikely to ever need to use, and how bizarre that even in one of the worlds most developed areas a government organisation are able to block the incoming television signals from another country. Amazing ...

Even more important, during the last weeks breezy and damp weather, absolutely perfect reception from Wales on the channels we are now allowed to receive.

SRB · 25-11-2009 12:16am

GiftGrub100 wrote: »

how bizarre that even in one of the worlds most developed areas a government organisation are able to block the incoming television signals from another country. Amazing ...

They are only doing their job - they had to set up a national DTT transmission system and that's what they are doing. The tests are just tests. It looks likely there only will be a single PSB mux in Ireland in the near future anyway, so I wouldn't worry.

25-11-2009 1:41am

SRB wrote: »

They are only doing their job - they had to set up a national DTT transmission system and that's what they are doing. The tests are just tests. It looks likely there only will be a single PSB mux in Ireland in the near future anyway, so I wouldn't worry.

Nonsense.
Two or three days ,a pen and a ledger and then switch the electricity wasting carry on off.
It's obvious whats going on ...
Lol,they don't have 3 muxes going at any other site.
I've a good mind to write to Mr Gormley and our "green" minister for communications drawing their attention to this global warming inducing outrage...

North korean thinking is alive and well in RTE..It's like the radio nova jamming all over again.

wikipedia wrote:

The state broadcaster RTÉ which had seen its audience dwindle due to the arrival of Nova and other large pirate stations started a campaign against Radio Nova. The jamming continued for some weeks and made reception of Nova almost impossible at times. The station eventually went into receivership and shut down its Kiss FM operation. Eventually the Irish government ordered RTÉ to stop the jamming and once again Radio Nova flourished.

mrdtv · 25-11-2009 12:17pm

Digifriendly wrote: »

Just wondering about North East Antrim compared to further south into East Antrim. I haven't see too many aerials in and around Ballycastle aiming for Scotland, in fact only one very large high gain which I presume is for Black Hill. Know that around Carnlough/Cushendall there have always been aerials for Scotland. In fact going back to 1970's these places could only get decent TV reception from Scotland as being in a 'bowl' like Ballycastle they were blocked out for decent local reception until they got their own relays. But wondering about further north whether DTT will be easily received. Would love to have further info. on this. BTW I used to live in the port of Larne (1970's) and my best friend got better reception from Scotland than from NI! Also my wife is from Carrickfergus and reception from Scotland there is pretty good too although not a lot of aerials pointing across the Irish Sea. Maybe this is due to fact that Divis has always been easily receivable in Carrickfergus which is also a great spot for RTE as there is a straight line through the Mournes to Clermont Carn.

Note that the Digital UK reception prediction database has been systematically swept clean of out-of-region predictions for DTT transmitters ( allthough they are listed but not the predictions any more), probably because UTV will be adversely impacted till 2012. Viewers are already using DTT from other areas and this is going to affect UTV's audience share and revenues. As the DUK database is no longer reliable the best guide is local installers and retuning ( as this flushes out any new signals and as we have seen high power DTT does not necessarily need your aerial to be pointing in the right direction)

Here is a summary:

South Down below Newcastle relay range:

Winter Hill, Arfon and Moel-y-Parc all confirmed. NB by next week all high power DTT.

East Down in Newcastle relay range:

CCI on some Winter Hill DSO muxes, Caldbeck England muxes clear, Moel-y-Parc, IOM SFN network confirmed

North Down and Ards peninsula:

Bad CCI to Divis PSB muxes from Caldbeck COM muxes, Caldbeck England muxes clear, Cambret Hill, Portpatrick all confirmed, Winter Hill confirmed.

North Belfast/East Antrim coast to Larne:

Caldbeck England muxes, Cambret Hill, Portpatrick all confirmed. RTE up to just before Whitehead via Clermont Carn.

Larne northwards towards Ballycastle:

Darvel DTT already (high power 2011) is very popular as its a 5 channel analogue TX + low power DTT. Like Preseli it will be 20kW at DSO. It is much closer than Black Hill which will, however, be 100kW at DSO. No RTE.

Ballycastle :

No DTT till 2011 when STV Central switches then from Darvel on higher ground, Port Ellen and Gigha Island (can be seen from Ballycastle) for Freeview-lite. No RTE.

North Coast:

RTE from Moville, Limavady DTT already and Port Ellen from 2011.

I hope this helps!

mrdtv · 25-11-2009 12:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Nonsense.
Two or three days ,a pen and a ledger and then switch the electricity wasting carry on off.
It's obvious whats going on ...
Lol,they don't have 3 muxes going at any other site.
I've a good mind to write to Mr Gormley and our "green" minister for communications drawing their attention to this global warming inducing outrage...

North korean thinking is alive and well in RTE..It's like the radio nova jamming all over again.

LOL! Yes, I think some pithy questions about unnecessary operating costs being incurred by RTENL are on the cards in the Dail bearing in mind most other sites are 1 MUx operations and, at most, that's what is on the cards. Its so very obvious and comes across as commercially amateurish as it just makes the consumer case for Freesat and Sky so much stronger: RTENL have no traction there. They are shooting themselves so very decisively in the foot as it undermines the brand equity of DTT as a platform in Ireland. Not very smart at all!

Digifriendly · 25-11-2009 7:02pm

mrdtv wrote: »

Note that the Digital UK reception prediction database has been systematically swept clean of out-of-region predictions for DTT transmitters ( allthough they are listed but not the predictions any more), probably because UTV will be adversely impacted till 2012. Viewers are already using DTT from other areas and this is going to affect UTV's audience share and revenues. As the DUK database is no longer reliable the best guide is local installers and retuning ( as this flushes out any new signals and as we have seen high power DTT does not necessarily need your aerial to be pointing in the right direction)

Here is a summary:

South Down below Newcastle relay range:

Winter Hill, Arfon and Moel-y-Parc all confirmed. NB by next week all high power DTT.

East Down in Newcastle relay range:

CCI on some Winter Hill DSO muxes, Caldbeck England muxes clear, Moel-y-Parc, IOM SFN network confirmed

North Down and Ards peninsula:

Bad CCI to Divis PSB muxes from Caldbeck COM muxes, Caldbeck England muxes clear, Cambret Hill, Portpatrick all confirmed, Winter Hill confirmed.

North Belfast/East Antrim coast to Larne:

Caldbeck England muxes, Cambret Hill, Portpatrick all confirmed. RTE up to just before Whitehead via Clermont Carn.

Larne northwards towards Ballycastle:

Darvel DTT already (high power 2011) is very popular as its a 5 channel analogue TX + low power DTT. Like Preseli it will be 20kW at DSO. It is much closer than Black Hill which will, however, be 100kW at DSO. No RTE.

Ballycastle :

No DTT till 2011 when STV Central switches then from Darvel on higher ground, Port Ellen and Gigha Island (can be seen from Ballycastle) for Freeview-lite. No RTE.

North Coast:

RTE from Moville, Limavady DTT already and Port Ellen from 2011.

I hope this helps!

Great summary. Many thanks just what I was wanting. Interesting that very North coast of NI i.e. Portstewart to Ballycastle though not far from Scotland has little or no reception from there mainly due to low powered relays I guess being nearest transmitters and being generally out of range of the main ones.

SRB · 25-11-2009 8:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Nonsense.
Two or three days ,a pen and a ledger and then switch the electricity wasting carry on off.
It's obvious whats going on ...
Lol,they don't have 3 muxes going at any other site.

They've had 2 running from Three Rock and Kippure for some time now, Kippure at one stage had 58, 61 and 64 all on air. It makes a lot more sense to check the impact the UK DTT service is going to have on allocated frequencies now, rather than when someone is trying to launch on them. On the point of cost, I can't see the channels all staying on air much longer, Kippure was running high power for a week on various frequencies two weeks ago, it isn't now. (Three Rock is running 4 muxes at the moment)

Sam Russell · 25-11-2009 8:20pm

SRB wrote: »

They've had 2 running from Three Rock and Kippure for some time now, Kippure at one stage had 58, 61 and 64 all on air. It makes a lot more sense to check the impact the UK DTT service is going to have on allocated frequencies now, rather that when someone is trying to launch on them.

Could this be to persuade Onevision of their readiness to go live? Or to actually go live without them?

They must be ready to go full service now! 13 transmitters all beaming out, well nearly all. We could go for ASO in 12 months, we went Kilometre/hour in 3 weeks. Start the service on 1.1.2010, and have ASO 1.1.2011 - the 50th aniverary of RTE. STB to the UK DVD-T2/MPEG4 approved standard. Save a lot of expense, Currys would not even notice.:)

SRB · 25-11-2009 8:24pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Could this be to persuade Onevision of their readiness to go live? Or to actually go live without them?

They must be ready to go full service now! 13 transmitters all beaming out, well nearly all. We could go for ASO in 12 months, we went Kilometre/hour in 3 weeks. Start the service on 1.1.2010, and have ASO 1.1.2011 - the 50th aniverary of RTE. STB to the UK DVD-T2/MPEG4 approved standard. Save a lot of expense, Currys would not even notice.:)

I was just thinking the same Sam, the channel's are now carrying the correct flags and labels and all does look ready to roll, from RTE's point of view anyway. DAB fans in the North would be happy to see VHF telly end, that's for sure !

PyeContinental · 03-12-2009 2:44pm

marclt wrote: »

What a co-incidence! Gosh they are busy up there on Mt. Leinster!!!

Wake me up when they start tx-ing on Ch. 39! At this rate, it could happen at some point later today! LOL!

Wake up! Great news!

RTE are no longer broadcasting on channels 42, 45 or 49 and are now broadcasting on channel 39 from Mt Leinster!
Will it stay like this? I hope so!

PyeContinental · 03-12-2009 3:03pm

PyeContinental wrote: »

Will it stay like this? I hope so!

Unfortunately, "no" is the answer

It's still on 39 but is back on 42, 45, 49 as well.

Maybe they just need to do a bit more testing on those channels before settling on ch39?

03-12-2009 3:26pm

PyeContinental wrote: »

Unfortunately, "no" is the answer
It's still on 39 but is back on 42, 45, 49 as well.

Maybe they just need to do a bit more testing on those channels before settling on ch39?

Lol..

They've put ch 39 on for those with presely aerials that can't receive it on 42,45 and 49.

PyeContinental · 03-12-2009 3:41pm

Yes, I was thinking how great it would be if they would broadcast on ch39 only (and for a time earlier today that's how it was) because that way I would only need 1 aerial and 1 masthead amp and 1 cable run and I wouldn't have to have separate tuners for Preseli and Mt Leinster feeds.

If they do keep broadcasting duplicate muxes longterm on channels 42, 45 and 49 it would be hard not to to think that they are doing this to spite people who are trying to receive the commercial muxes from Preseli.

marclt · 03-12-2009 3:50pm

PyeContinental wrote: »

Wake up! Great news!
RTE are no longer broadcasting on channels 42, 45 or 49 and are now broadcasting on channel 39 from Mt Leinster!
Will it stay like this? I hope so!

Cheers Pye... I might want to upgrade the aerial now after all....

elsie1b · 03-12-2009 5:00pm

marclt wrote: »

Cheers Pye... I might want to upgrade the aerial now after all....

At the moment they are back on 42,45 and 49.

mrdtv · 03-12-2009 5:41pm

PyeContinental wrote: »

Yes, I was thinking how great it would be if they would broadcast on ch39 only (and for a time earlier today that's how it was) because that way I would only need 1 aerial and 1 masthead amp and 1 cable run and I wouldn't have to have separate tuners for Preseli and Mt Leinster feeds.

If they do keep broadcasting duplicate muxes longterm on channels 42, 45 and 49 it would be hard not to to think that they are doing this to spite people who are trying to receive the commercial muxes from Preseli.

This could, of course, be construed as a comprehensive waste of licence fee payers money. There is no commercial DTT operator in prospect, RTE is in deep doodoo financially, and the UK have just leapfrogged the Irish technology choice which now looks obsolete. Time for a Dail hearing, given that they will be cut off from Northern Ireland: I bet the British will cut up rough over Clermont Carn overspill soon and bring that to an end as a counterstrike.

Satdog · 03-12-2009 6:45pm

I'm now getting RTE news channel on Ch 42, anyone else?

SRB · 03-12-2009 7:46pm

mrdtv wrote: »

This could, of course, be construed as a comprehensive waste of licence fee payers money. There is no commercial DTT operator in prospect, RTE is in deep doodoo financially, and the UK have just leapfrogged the Irish technology choice which now looks obsolete. Time for a Dail hearing, given that they will be cut off from Northern Ireland: I bet the British will cut up rough over Clermont Carn overspill soon and bring that to an end as a counterstrike.

CC doesn't seem to get out much past Hillsborough/Moira.

hamo31 · 03-12-2009 8:32pm

Hi to all, I'm new here, first time posting. I have read that Ch42 from Preseli stopped working because it's being blocked by transmissions from Mt Leinster.
I have 3 roof aerials. A high gain UHF GR B aerial, the biggest UHF aerial you can put on a mast, not sure how many elements. This is pointing to Preseli. A UHF GR A aerial for TV3 and TG4 pointing to Mt Leinster and a VHF Band 3 wide band aerial pointing to Mt Leinster. All 3 cables from these aerials are diplexed and amplified in the attic so it was easy for me to disconnect the TV3 and RTE aerials, leaving only the UHF aerial pointing to Preseli. My question is how can a UHF Ch42 transmission from Mt Leinster interfere with a transmission from Wales ? I mean the aerial is is high gain, directional and Mt leinster is behind the aerial. I am in Wexford
Hamo31

mrdtv · 03-12-2009 8:50pm

hamo31 wrote: »

Hi to all, I'm new here, first time posting. I have read that Ch42 from Preseli stopped working because it's being blocked by transmissions from Mt Leinster.
I have 3 roof aerials. A high gain UHF GR B aerial, the biggest UHF aerial you can put on a mast, not sure how many elements. This is pointing to Preseli. A UHF GR A aerial for TV3 and TG4 pointing to Mt Leinster and a VHF Band 3 wide band aerial pointing to Mt Leinster. All 3 cables from these aerials are diplexed and amplified in the attic so it was easy for me to disconnect the TV3 and RTE aerials, leaving only the UHF aerial pointing to Preseli. My question is how can a UHF Ch42 transmission from Mt Leinster interfere with a transmission from Wales ? I mean the aerial is is high gain, directional and Mt leinster is behind the aerial. I am in Wexford
Hamo31

Simple: COFDM DVB-T1 and DVB-T2 do NOT behave like analogue terrestrial TV. The system actively uses reflections so the signals coming from behind are used by the receiver as well. If they are over the C/N ratio you are going to get a perfect picture OR none if there is a cochannel interferer above the C/I threshold. DVB-T systems use scattered pilots to reconstruct the signal exactly: that is why Preseli digital is far superior to analogue. Its also why people in NW England are getting perfect Welsh TV as well as NW TV: the receivers are using the reflections. In the case of Preseli COM muxes & Mount Leinster they are cancelling each other out.

hamo31 · 03-12-2009 8:57pm

MRDTV, thanks for your reply, but I still don't get it. I live on the coast, my aerial is pointing to the sea, there are no large objects to cause signal reflections. My aerial in theory should reject any signal coming from behind (Unless it's extermely strong in which case it would reach Wales and cause problems there)
Hamo31

Antenna · 03-12-2009 9:12pm

hamo31 wrote: »

. I live on the coast, my aerial is pointing to the sea, there are no large objects to cause signal reflections. Hamo31

to start with, offshore wind turbines might be a problem in reflecting back the unwanted Mt Leinster signal to the front of your aerial. These exist off the Wexford/Wicklow coast

also salty water can to some extent reflect back UHF signals, this would vary with the tide etc

mrdtv · 04-12-2009 10:33am

hamo31 wrote: »

MRDTV, thanks for your reply, but I still don't get it. I live on the coast, my aerial is pointing to the sea, there are no large objects to cause signal reflections. My aerial in theory should reject any signal coming from behind (Unless it's extermely strong in which case it would reach Wales and cause problems there)
Hamo31

It is reaching Wales and it *IS* causing problems. This has been reported elsewhere. However the reflections could be coming off other buildings, hills etc, and you will be getting a signal from behind. High power COFDM is like an omnidirectional system: that is why there is no more ghosting. Its completely different to analogue TV and this happens all the time now with high power DTT: the system uses reflections to integrate the overall signal. With two transmitters with different services on the same frequency either one will dominate or if they are both above threshold you will get nothing as they interfere destructively. Do you know what your signal strrength, quality, BER and C/N numbers are for Preseli PSB muxes? (43, 46 and 50 if still active prior to HD switchover next year.)

04-12-2009 2:33pm

By the way Wexford town has a line of sight to Mt Leinster.
You can certainly see it quite plainly as you cross the ferrybank bridge into the town.
Even up here in arklow group B aerials pointed to presely were bringing in almost perfect tv3 and TG4 on their own and thats with hills in the way and no line of sight due to dips and valleys and distance etc.

So to expect a group B not to have even bigger problems south in or near Wexford town is expecting a bit much sadly.

PyeContinental · 04-12-2009 2:55pm

elsie1b wrote: »

At the moment they are back on 42,45 and 49.

marclt is in south Wales I presume, so he'll have a better chance of picking up RTE on ch39 seing as Preseli doesn't use that frequency

I wonder are people there and the people who control the Preseli transmitter angry about the interference from RTE on channels 42,45,49

mrdtv · 04-12-2009 5:05pm

PyeContinental wrote: »

marclt is in south Wales I presume, so he'll have a better chance of picking up RTE on ch39 seing as Preseli doesn't use that frequency

I wonder are people there and the people who control the Preseli transmitter angry about the interference from RTE on channels 43,45,49

Its being measured by Ofcom investigations branch following complaints a little birdie tells me in a private email. What a silly and avoidable fiasco.....

PyeContinental · 04-12-2009 5:24pm

So they have noticed it, but I doubt there's anything they can do if those frequencies were legitimately allocated by that telecommunications convention - I think it was you who mentioned. Would they go as far as to write a "strongly worded letter" :pac: to RTE asking them to only use ch39 or maybe asking to reduce their power I wonder?

marclt · 04-12-2009 5:32pm

PyeContinental wrote: »

marclt is in south Wales I presume, so he'll have a better chance of picking up RTE on ch39 seing as Preseli doesn't use that frequency

I wonder are people there and the people who control the Preseli transmitter angry about the interference from RTE on channels 43,45,49

Hi Pye/mrdtv

I am south west of Preseli, but am so close to it, there is no interference to Preseli on the Ch. 42, 45, 49 frequencies. In fact they are all 100%.

I don't really see RTE moving frequencies that have been agreed. In fact, if the are interference problems then they are more than likely to occur in the Fishguard/Dinas Cross to Newport stretch and maybe down towards St. Davids from Mt. Leinster.

But you could argue that these are in a Preseli blackspot anyway thanks to the Preseli mountain range and as a result there are number of tx sites (like Trefin, Fishguard and Newport) that fill in the PSB gaps. And to demonstrate about overspill from other areas, the St. Davids transmitter uses ch 23 and 26 - which is shared with Mt. Leinster analogue. The St. Dogmaels tx overlooking Cardigan and the coast also uses Ch. 23 and 26 too.

Will RTE move frequency if the Irish signals are causing problems to Welsh viewers? ... Probably not! There is a 56 nautical mile expanse of water between Rosslare and Fishguard... I'm sure the juice will be upped sufficiently so that no interference is caused on either side of the water. Or the use of the Group A analogue frequencies could be considered...

The offered response to viewers in Wexford wanting to watch Irish DTT will be - unplug your UK aerial and away you go!

Marc

mrdtv · 04-12-2009 5:33pm

PyeContinental wrote: »

So they have noticed it, but I doubt there's anything they can do if those frequencies were legitimately allocated by that telecommunications convention - I think it was you who mentioned. Would they go as far as to write a "strongly worded letter" :pac: to RTE asking them to only use ch39 or maybe asking to reduce their power I wonder?

They could ask for westward HRP nulls to be introduced to minimise interference. The more sophisticated sites in the UK are just getting computer controlled nulls: more costs for RTENL. It would affect the coverage in Ireland too. To reiterate the use of E39 and the Group A channels is the 'smart' business solution. I think RTENL will be overtaken by 'events' in the Irish business landscape and UK technology directions very soon, especially the just announced Tesco DVB-T2 procurement: This is going to be very big indeed!

DTT Mt Leinster, Ch45 blocking Presely in the South East

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