JFK:Inside The Target Car - Discovery Channel UK 9pm tonight

meglome · 01-05-2009 2:02am

Mahatma coat wrote: »

anyone got a link to a version of the docco that plays on google video, I can find it but it wont play

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/jfk-inside-the-target-car-grassy-knoll-field-test.html

Not sure if this page has all the sections.

Mahatma coat · 01-05-2009 2:13am

again its a Stationary target on the same plane as the shooter, and they are using
LEE ENFIELD .303 RIFLES, not the cheapo Italian Jobbie Oswald had

I could probably fire off 10 rounds that quickly meself with tha LE.303 in those conditions

could I hit a moving target at the distance JFK was, from a position equivelant to Oswalds, elevated at an angle and with an obscured line of sight, with 3 rounds, well it would be a tad more difficult, and before you ask, I have sexy little badge on my FCA No1's, its a crosshair with a Bow and Arrow, I got it one day in the Curragh for my outstandin ability to hit snap targets at 300M while standing with an FN FAL .308

so that would make me about as average as Oswald

King Mob · 01-05-2009 2:26am

Mahatma coat wrote: »

again its a Stationary target on the same plane as the shooter, and they are using
LEE ENFIELD .303 RIFLES, not the cheapo Italian Jobbie Oswald had

I could probably fire off 10 rounds that quickly meself with tha LE.303 in those conditions

And the P&T video shows that the rifle Oswald used was able to get three shots off in the 8 seconds.

So it's possible to fire 3 rounds in 8 seconds and still have time to aim.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

could I hit a moving target at the distance JFK was, from a position equivelant to Oswalds, elevated at an angle and with an obscured line of sight, with 3 rounds, well it would be a tad more difficult, and before you ask, I have sexy little badge on my FCA No1's, its a crosshair with a Bow and Arrow, I got it one day in the Curragh for my outstandin ability to hit snap targets at 300M while standing with an FN FAL .308

so that would make me about as average as Oswald

So it's entirely possible to make that shot?

Mahatma coat · 01-05-2009 2:39am

the Penn and Teller video is Useless, they dont actually Load the Rifle so there is no relevance to their little demonstration.

King Mob · 01-05-2009 2:49am

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the Penn and Teller video is Useless, they dont actually Load the Rifle so there is no relevance to their little demonstration.

It shows the mechanism on that gun can work that fast.

Have you something that shows that it can't?

Do you believe it is impossible to make those shots?

Mahatma coat · 01-05-2009 2:55am

do you understand the fundamental difference between an empty and a LOADED Rifle???

serious question.

King Mob · 01-05-2009 3:15am

Mahatma coat wrote: »

do you understand the fundamental difference between an empty and a LOADED Rifle???

serious question.

Yes MC I know the difference between a loaded rifle and an unloaded one.

The P&T clip clearly shows that the mechanism of the rifle is more than fast enough to fire 3 shots in 8 seconds.

Can you show anything that would show that the rifle cannot show live ammo that fast?

Mahatma coat · 01-05-2009 3:30am

Seriously, have a read of what you've just discussed with me, and your requests for evidence, your liberal use of youtubery, and your unwavering belief inthe fact that you are right.

then have a look back over the rest of your posts in the forum

the hypocracy is palpable

You're goin back on ignore for another week.

King Mob · 01-05-2009 4:11am

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Seriously, have a read of what you've just discussed with me, and your requests for evidence, your liberal use of youtubery, and your unwavering belief inthe fact that you are right.

then have a look back over the rest of your posts in the forum

the hypocracy is palpable

You're goin back on ignore for another week.

All I'm asking you is to back up your points.

You believe it is impossible for the rifle used by Oswald to fire those shots in that time?

Why do you believe this and have you anything to back it up?

I'm not (and never did) claiming that these video prove Oswald could or did make those shots.
I am claiming that these videos show that it is at least possible to get that number of shots fired and on target.
Debunking the argument that "It was not possible for Oswald to fire the shots that fast."

Mahatma coat · 01-05-2009 8:21am

OK I'll play along for a bit

so what is your position on this?
Did Oswald act alone?

I'm speakin from a point of experience, its extremley difficult to make the shots that Oswald made in the time that he made them with the acuracy that Oswald apparently acheived, and I am also awrer that one of his shots missed/ricoched and hit someone in the crowd.

I hunt regularly, I use simmilar calibre rounds, and simmilar bolt action rifles.

what you have shown is that it is possible to fire A RIFLE at that speed, but we dont see the targets they are shooting at & the guys in your videos are on the same plane as the targets, Oswald was at an extreme angle firing at a moving target through tree cover.

I'm not sayin tha Oswald didnt shoot at Kenedy, just that he wasnt the only one.

Have you ever fired a proper rifle (.22 does not count)?

King Mob · 01-05-2009 8:55am

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK I'll play along for a bit

so what is your position on this?
Did Oswald act alone?

There is no evidence to support the idea of a second shooter.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

I'm speakin from a point of experience, its extremley difficult to make the shots that Oswald made in the time that he made them with the acuracy that Oswald apparently acheived, and I am also awrer that one of his shots missed/ricoched and hit someone in the crowd.

Difficult but not impossible.
Would you say he could have made the shot?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

what you have shown is that it is possible to fire A RIFLE at that speed, but we dont see the targets they are shooting at & the guys in your videos are on the same plane as the targets, Oswald was at an extreme angle firing at a moving target through tree cover.

I provided videos that showed the rifle that oswald used could have been operated at that speed, videos that show people firing at comparable and great speeds.
I wasn't saying anything about the accuracy. Just that the argument "he couldn't have fired three shots in 8 seconds" does not stand up.

Do you believe he could not have fired his rifle that fast?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

I'm not sayin tha Oswald didnt shoot at Kenedy, just that he wasnt the only one.

And what leads you to this conclusion?

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Have you ever fired a proper rifle (.22 does not count)?

No I haven't. Why does it matter?

Penn · 01-05-2009 9:01am

from http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-4.html#marine

Accuracy of Weapon

It will be recalled from the discussion in chapter III that the assassin in all probability hit two out of the three shots during the maximum time span of 4.8 to 5.6 seconds if the second shot missed, or, if either the first or third shots missed, the assassin fired the three shots during a minimum time span of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds.795 A series of tests were performed to determine whether the weapon and ammunition used in the assassination were capable of firing the shots which were fired by the assassin on November 22, 1963. The ammunition used by the assassin was manufactured by Western Cartridge Co. of East Alton, III. In tests with the Mannlicher-Carcano C2766 rifle, over 100 rounds of this ammunition were fired by the FBI and the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army. There were no misfires.796

In an effort to test the rifle under conditions which simulated those which prevailed during the assassination, the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the Ballistics Research Laboratory had expert riflemen fire the assassination weapon from a tower at three silhouette targets at distances of 175, 240, and 265 feet. The target at 265 feet was placed to the right of the 240-foot target which was in turn placed to the right of the closest silhouette.797 Using the assassination rifle mounted with the telescopic sight, three marksmen, rated as master by the National Rifle Association, each fired two series of three shots. In the first series the firers required time spans of 4.6, 6.75, and 8.25 seconds respectively. On the second series they required 5.15, 6.45, and 7 seconds. None of the marksmen had any practice with the assassination weapon except for exercising the bolt for 2 or 3 minutes on a dry run. They had not even pulled the trigger because of concern about breaking the firing pin.798

The marksmen took as much time as they wanted for the first target and all hit the target.799 For the first four attempts, the firers missed the second shot. by several inches. 800 The angle from the first to the second shot was greater than from the second to the third shot and required a movement in the basic firing position of the marksmen.801 This angle was used in the test because the majority of the eyewitnesses to the assassination stated that there was a shorter interval between shots two and three than between shots one and two.802 As has been shown in chapter III, if the three shots were fired within a period of from 4.8 to 5.6 seconds, the shots would have been evenly spaced and the assassin would not have incurred so sharp an angular movement.803

Five of the six shots hit the third target where the angle of movement of the weapon was small.804 On the basis of these results, Simmons testified that in his opinion the probability of hitting the targets at the relatively short range at which they were hit was very high.805

Diogenes · 01-05-2009 9:04am

Mahatma coat wrote: »

OK

I'm speakin from a point of experience, its extremley difficult to make the shots that Oswald made in the time that he made them with the acuracy that Oswald apparently acheived, and I am also awrer that one of his shots missed/ricoched and hit someone in the crowd.

So you admit that he hit his intended target two out of four times?

what you have shown is that it is possible to fire A RIFLE at that speed, but we dont see the targets they are shooting at & the guys in your videos are on the same plane as the targets, Oswald was at an extreme angle firing at a moving target through tree cover.

It was neither an extreme angle or was there any tree cover. It was November remember? Leaves fall in Autumn in Dallas too. Do some basic fact checking.

Have you ever fired a proper rifle (.22 does not count)?

I'm sorry who was it on the CT opinion thread arguing that people shouldn't be allowed bring their own personal expertise onto a a subject matter. And you have the temerity to call King Mob a hypocrite?

bog master · 01-05-2009 9:22am

As a long time, avid reader of the JFK assination, just a few points I would like to rebut.

Bubble top removal-numerous Secret Service Agents have testified that Kennedy did not order the removal of the bubble top. Source jfk lancer and Vincent M Palamara, who is considered an expert of the Secret Service of that time. Furthermore agents also testified that JFK never ordered agents off the rear of his car and numerous agents have been quoted he was very easy to deal with, he let them get on with their job.

Agents Drinking-it is well established and noted in the Warren Commission, House Assassination Comiitee Report and again thru V. Palamara that nine agents including four of those posted in the escort car were out drinking in A Fort Worth Bar until the early hours of the 22nd November,

Security on building roofs etc. Secret Service Agent Doster interviewed on the JFK trip to Nashville 18 May 1963 from the Nasville Banner newspaper.
" a complete check of the entire motorcade route was done (also other officers were assigned atop the Muncipal Terminal and other buildings along the route"

Diogenes · 01-05-2009 10:40am

bog master wrote: »

As a long time, avid reader of the JFK assination, just a few points I would like to rebut.

Bubble top removal-numerous Secret Service Agents have testified that Kennedy did not order the removal of the bubble top. Source jfk lancer and Vincent M Palamara, who is considered an expert of the Secret Service of that time.

Who considers himself a expert on the Secret Service.

The fact is Kennedy often travelled in an convertible. There was nothing unusual about that. It was a mild and sunny day in Dallas, there is no reason to suspect anything other than Kennedy liked to travel open topped cars in good weather. Finally and most obviously the bubble top was not even bullet proof.

Furthermore agents also testified that JFK never ordered agents off the rear of his car and numerous agents have been quoted he was very easy to deal with, he let them get on with their job.

Utterly incorrect.

On November 18 in Tampa, the President ordered the two Secret Service agents off the back bumper of his car. The men from the Committee noted this change, which persisted at Fort Worth, San Antonio and Houston, but they maintained their original plan, which took into account the possibility of instantaneous intervention by the bodyguards.

since the advent of television, the protection of the President on American soil had become a difficult job. So that the public could see the President, his bodyguards were banished from the running-boards of the Presidential car.

Source

Agents Drinking-it is well established and noted in the Warren Commission, House Assassination Comiitee Report and again thru V. Palamara that nine agents including four of those posted in the escort car were out drinking in A Fort Worth Bar until the early hours of the 22nd November,

Is it possible that several agents acted improperly the night beforehand, however the specific claim is that the agents were drinking in Jack Ruby's bar. That hasn't been validated.

Security on building roofs etc. Secret Service Agent Doster interviewed on the JFK trip to Nashville 18 May 1963 from the Nasville Banner newspaper.
" a complete check of the entire motorcade route was done (also other officers were assigned atop the Muncipal Terminal and other buildings along the route"

Yes and would you like to know why?

The "Nashville Banner" from 1/23/92 carried a report that a mortal
threat to President Kennedy s life was hushed up by the Secret Service
when JFK visited Nashville, TN, on 5/18/63. The information came from
Rep. Bob Clement, the son of former Governor Frank Clement, JFK's host
during his 1963 visit to the state (both Clements met JFK on this trip
[inc. is a photo from the trip depicting both the elder Clement and his
son]). At Overton High School, a man approached the president with a gun
underneath a sack---he was grabbed by the Secret Service and the
incident itself was kept quiet in order to keep from encouraging similar
scares [think of all the copycat school shootings there are today
because of media hype!]. Bob Clement said: "Back in those days, privacy
was easier to accomplish". The paper interviewed the widow of Paul
Doster, the former SAIC of the Nashville office who died in
1987)---although Paul did not mention the incident to her, she said:
"But, you ve got to remember, he was pretty secretive, even to me." For
his part, Agent Doster told the "Nashville Banner" back on 5/18/63 that
"a complete check of the entire motorcade route" was done (also, other
[police] officers were assigned atop the municipal terminal and other
buildings along the route. These men took their posts at 8 a.m. and
remained at their rooftop stations until the president and his party
passed . In addition, a helicopter was used, similar to its use on
11/21/63 in San Antonio, TX). Agents/ important personnel on this trip
inc. Salinger, Behn, Kellerman, Greer, Roberts, DeFreese, Duncan,
Chandler, Yeager, Nunn, O Leary, Grant, Sulliman, Lawson, Olsson,
Paolella, Burns, and DNC advance man Jerry Bruno;

Source

In Nashville a direct credible threat had been thwarted on the Presidents life, of course in the following hours heightened security would occur.

artvandulet · 01-05-2009 10:44am

King Mob wrote: »

You where claiming that it was impossible to fire the weapon three times in eight seconds.

Where did I claim that??

King Mob wrote: »

Have you anything to back up your claim?

I did however refer to tests that were done a few years ago in Italy. Found an article about it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1556184/Oswald-had-no-time-to-fire-all-Kennedy-bullets.html

Surely its better to rely on evidence by the likes of William Tobin and opinions like that of Gunny Hatchcock - the best sharpshooter of them all, than that of 2 Las Vegas Magicians

As for this statement

King Mob wrote: »

There is no evidence to support the idea of a second shooter.

I don't know where to start;)

King Mob · 01-05-2009 11:04am

artvandulet wrote: »

Where did I claim that??

Here:

artvandulet wrote: »

Yeah I know that, the time frame is more like 8 seconds or something. but even in that time, it couldn't be done. the only few people who said it could were people like your friend Bugliosi.
Wasn't there test done at the rifle manufacturers in Italy a few years ago with the the gun and it took much longer than 8 seconds to get off 3 shots let alone aim.

artvandulet wrote: »

I did however refer to tests that were done a few years ago in Italy. Found an article about it:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1556184/Oswald-had-no-time-to-fire-all-Kennedy-bullets.html

19 seconds to cock and and fire a rifle three times? Seems a bit slow given the videos I linked.

artvandulet wrote: »

Surely its better to rely on evidence by the likes of William Tobin and opinions like that of Gunny Hatchcock - the best sharpshooter of them all, than that of 2 Las Vegas Magicians

It's not their opinion. Penn Jillette operated the mechanism three times in under 8 seconds. That's what the video shows do you agree? So it's not the mechanism that would slow Oswald down.
We've yet to see one explanation as to why it would be impossible for Oswald to get the shots off.

artvandulet wrote: »

As for this statement

I don't know where to start;)

Maybe with the verifiable evidence.

artvandulet · 01-05-2009 11:19am

"but even in that time, it couldn't be done"
Wow. Is it not clear I was including aiming at a moving target in that statement? If you read the conversation I was replying to someone refering to Oswald.

King Mob wrote: »

We've yet to see one explanation as to why it would be impossible for Oswald to get the shots off.

There's expert opinion though - like Gunny Hatchcock. then there's all the science and pseudo-science, albeit some for and some against!
There's even evidence that he wasnt there. You know the whole lunch room thing...

bog master · 01-05-2009 11:23am

Apologies for not quoting and highlighting points, a bit new to the board.

Vincent Palamara is considered by most JFK Assasination researchers as the expert in the area of the Secret Service and has written numerous articles and books.

The Presidential Car was a convertible with both plastic and metal removable roofs, and yes neither were bulletproof,

Ordering agents of the car and removal of bubbletop? , perhaps we wil never know as evidence at times is conflicting. http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/limo.html

I dont believe that the SS Agents were drinking in Jack Ruby's Club, but the fact they were out drinking is damning itself. The reactions of most of the agents was dismally slow and I sometimes do wonder about the actions of Bill Greer driving the car! And how many people know he was Irish, born in Tyrone?

King Mob · 01-05-2009 11:34am

artvandulet wrote: »

"but even in that time, it couldn't be done"
Wow. Is it not clear I was including aiming at a moving target in that statement? If you read the conversation I was replying to someone refering to Oswald.

artvandulet wrote: »

Wasn't there test done at the rifle manufacturers in Italy a few years ago with the the gun and it took much longer than 8 seconds to get off 3 shots let alone aim.

So please clarify this.
Do you believe it is impossible for the rifle to get off 3 shots in 8 seconds?

artvandulet wrote: »

There's expert opinion though - like Gunny Hatchcock. then there's all the science and pseudo-science, albeit some for and some against!
There's even evidence that he wasnt there. You know the whole lunch room thing...

Maybe you should elaborate.

artvandulet · 01-05-2009 11:50am

King Mob wrote: »

So please clarify this.
Do you believe it is impossible for the rifle to get off 3 shots in 8 seconds?

I have no idea if its possible to get off 3 shots in 8 seconds but the point is moot. The question is could Oswald aim and fire 3 shots with that gun and shot 2 being the kill shot at a moving target with trees in the way at times and to that I don't THINK (based on what i've read) he could have.

King Mob wrote: »

Maybe you should elaborate.

just have a read about Oswalds actions in the TSBD and when he was spotted and so on. Very interesting reading. No point in listing it out here.
What about that Altgens photo of someone at the other window on the 6th floor at the same time as oswald was meant to be there. Thats pretty interesting too.

BTW, is this the biggest thread hijack of all time or wha!

King Mob · 01-05-2009 11:57am

artvandulet wrote: »

I have no idea if its possible to get off 3 shots in 8 seconds but the point is moot. The question is could Oswald aim and fire 3 shots with that gun and shot 2 being the kill shot at a moving target with trees in the way at times and to that I don't THINK (based on what i've read) he could have.

Well it's pretty important to the situation if he can actually fire three shots let alone aim.

Again no one here has been able to show exactly how this would be impossible.

But you can agree it's possible to make the shot?

artvandulet · 01-05-2009 12:04pm

King Mob wrote: »

Well it's pretty important to the situation if he can actually fire three shots let alone aim.

Again no one here has been able to show exactly how this would be impossible.

But you can agree it's possible to make the shot?

Ok here ye go. I think it is possible for someone to shoot a rifle 3 times in 8 seconds.
But that still doesnt mean I think Oswald could shoot that rifle and do what he did with it! I'm not even sure he was there to begin with!

Can you recommend a newer book on the JFK thing for me? - as i said in my 1st post I used to read lots on it but haven't for a few years. I just stumbled on this thread and its the first time in ages I've thought about it.
FWIW I always liked Anthony Summers book and highly recommend it. Robert Grodens photo book is interesting to look at too.

Diogenes · 01-05-2009 12:13pm

bog master wrote: »

Apologies for not quoting and highlighting points, a bit new to the board.

Vincent Palamara is considered by most JFK Assasination researchers as the expert in the area of the Secret Service and has written numerous articles and books.

Rubbish. He's a self proclaimed expert cited by kooks and idiots like Jim Fetzer.

If you believe him to be a world renowned expert on the secret service could you please explain how when you google "Vincent Palamara" the fourth link is to his Myspace page where he declares himself as a "SECRET SERVICE expert & guitarist".

This is not exactly the profile of someone who should be considered an expert in any field.

The Presidential Car was a convertible with both plastic and metal removable roofs, and yes neither were bulletproof,

So it's a red herring then, at best it could have provided concealment. JFK only used the roof in inclement weather, and it was a fine day in Dallas.

Ordering agents of the car and removal of bubbletop? , perhaps we wil never know as evidence at times is conflicting. http://www.jfklancer.com/LNE/limo.html

Again the quotes simply say "JFK was very co-operative with his agents". But the FACT remains that agents were not placed on the running boards of the presidential limo on several previous occasions.

There was nothing unusual about agents not being on the car that day.

I dont believe that the SS Agents were drinking in Jack Ruby's Club, but the fact they were out drinking is damning itself.

It's a sign of a lapse of judgement. Why are you saying it is damning?

The reactions of most of the agents was dismally slow and I sometimes do wonder about the actions of Bill Greer driving the car! And how many people know he was Irish, born in Tyrone?

Because it's not really relevant?

King Mob · 01-05-2009 12:13pm

artvandulet wrote: »

Ok here ye go. I think it is possible for someone to shoot a rifle 3 times in 8 seconds.
But that still doesnt mean I think Oswald could shoot that rifle and do what he did with it! I'm not even sure he was there to begin with!

But why couldn't he do it?
People have made much much harder shots than that.

Diogenes · 01-05-2009 12:18pm

artvandulet wrote: »

I'm not even sure he was there to begin with!

You mean the dozens of co workers who saw him in work that day, as well as the police officer who searched the building challenged Oswald and had his identity confirmed by his manager?

Can you recommend a newer book on the JFK thing for me? .

Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK

Diogenes · 01-05-2009 12:19pm

artvandulet wrote: »

I have no idea if its possible to get off 3 shots in 8 seconds but the point is moot. The question is could Oswald aim and fire 3 shots with that gun and shot 2 being the kill shot at a moving target with trees in the way at times and to that I don't THINK (based on what i've read) he could have.

Again they have autumn in Dallas too.

artvandulet · 01-05-2009 12:28pm

Diogenes wrote: »

You mean the dozens of co workers who saw him in work that day, as well as the police officer who searched the building challenged Oswald and had his identity confirmed by his manager?

I'm not disputing he was in the building, but what do you think of the evidence that he was in the lunchroom at the time?

Diogenes wrote: »

Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK

Thanks but I've read that one! Is there any newer one you'd suggest?

King Mob · 01-05-2009 12:36pm

artvandulet wrote: »

I'm not disputing he was in the building, but what do you think of the evidence that he was in the lunchroom at the time?

Hang on, I'm pretty sure you did just that.

artvandulet wrote: »

But that still doesnt mean I think Oswald could shoot that rifle and do what he did with it! I'm not even sure he was there to begin with!

artvandulet · 01-05-2009 12:38pm

King Mob wrote: »

Hang on, I'm pretty sure you did just that.

I mean on the 6th floor, in the 'snipers perch'. should have been clearer. I apologise profusely!

JFK:Inside The Target Car - Discovery Channel UK 9pm tonight

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