Irish Firm Claims World's Most Efficient Solar Heater

Surface Power have a tendency to blow smoke up their own holes.

They can talk the talk. But when it comes down to it you can get just as good, and probably a lot better, products and service elsewhere.

Tester46 wrote: »

You previously PM'd me with the name of the company in Dublin you are connected with - thanks. Are the tubes sold by that company the very efficient flask type you are talking about here?

Yep. All these flasks are made in China, often re-badged elsewhere. Get a grip - we don't even manufacture glass bottles in Ireland. We certainly don't manufacture flasks.

Tester46 wrote: »

My plumber is currently quoting me €6,000 +VAT for what he described as a "3-panel in roof flat face integrated velux solar system". What should I be asking him?

That seems a bit steep to me...

Tester46 wrote: »

I have the list of parts from that company's website - should I also be asking about:
- the controller
- size of expansion tank (what size - 25l?)
- flat panel or tubes
- heat dump (e.g. a rad)
- integration into my non-pressurised central heating system
- whether 3-coil cylinder (which is extra) is copper or stainless steeland level of insulation (looking for 100mm as it's in a seperate boiler house)
- whether all piping is insulated

The Velux is a flatplate which is properly flashed into the roof, which I prefer. If you are going for flatplate, I think it is better to do the job right and get one that is flashed into the roof, not just plonked on top - especially in windy locations.

The controller will be Velux installer, which is a rebadged Resol one. They're fine.

The expansion vessel must be large enough to take the contents of the panel as well as normal expansion in the event of a power cut. I don't know the volume of water in those panels, but he / (she?) will have worked that out.

The system he is using is a flatplate system. If you want one that will work over a longer season, you could look for tubes. I've no axe to grind - we sell both, but tubes work better in cloudy or cold weather and extend the working season. They are also cheaper and easier to retrofit. The downside to tubes is that they may be aesthetically obtrusive, and you will have to replace the flasks after about 20 years, at a cost of €5 per tube, whereas flatplates have a life of about 40 years.

Yes, you want a heat dump. (s)he may not have included this.

You only need a 3 coil cylinder if you have three systems heating the water, usually oil/gas, solid fuel and solar. You are probably getting a twin coil one, but you should know if the coil is a high surface area one. Most of the cylinders sold for solar don't have a proper solar coil. The surface area should be at least 1/4 sq m per sq me of panel.

The pipework from panel to cylinder should be insulated with insulation rated to 160 degrees. The cylinder will probably have 50mm insulation. This is OK in most situations.

I am a bit concerned that this is in a separate boiler house. I hope you don't use one of those systems that provides instant hot water?

Stainless cylinders are used for systems that have no attic tank. 300L ones are usually stainless. Question - is it 316 (marine grade) or 304 (kitchen sink grade). We sell both, but I prefer the 316....

Phew!:)

Hi Tester,

You can go for 100mm lagging on those cylinders -there is extra lead time, because very few people opt for them (usually the hotpress is too narrow, and the plumbers' knuckles aren't up to the job). However, I find most heat loss at the cylinder comes from careless insulation of the points where the fittings go into the cylinder. I usually get some 1.5" and 2" insulation and put that over the outside of the other insulation and stuff it right up against the cylinder, so that all the brass fittings are covered. I also cover over the immersion heater etc.

In relation to the secondary return, this is a system some people use when the cylinder is far away - they leave a pump running hot water in a loop around the house so there is instant hot water at the taps. Very wasteful... Hotels use if all the time, and it wastes a lot of heat.

You can still use the quick hot water system, but hopefully for most of the summer you won't need it.

Zoning is quite important, though you are using it differently. In a normal house the sitting room is zoned for 21 degrees and the rest of the house for 18. But zoning areas seldom used makes a lot of sense. Your hot water can be a third zone, used only after 6.00pm on days when the panels didn't do the necessary...

All the best, Q

Tester46 wrote: »

I'm not questioning you, but if what you are saying is true i.e. these are just the standard vacuum flask tubes that can be bought cheaper, then how can these guys release a public statement saying the following???

"Thursday, 5 February 2009 – An Irish company today launched the most efficient solar panel ever produced. Surface Power in County Mayo says it plans to create 20 new jobs over the next 12 months with the launch and international distribution of its breakthrough product.
Independent Certification by TUV Rhineland - the world’s leading testing house - has shown that when compared to other leading solar panels the Irish developed panel was in one case as much as 131% more efficient in morning and evening time and 76% more efficient at midday.
"We also expect the international home renovation market to be very strong during the next three years, as our collector is the only pre-packaged vacuum collector on the world market. This leads to quicker, simpler and cheaper installations” added Mr. Quinn."

I've looked all over both their site and the TUV site for data and can't find it. As others have said here, if it was that good, being the slick marketeers they appear to be, surely there would be links to the original document? I'm open to being corrected on this if someone can find that test data.

What is unusual about their system (but not unique) is that they are using a U tube pipework in the panel instead of heat pipes - it is something most Chinese suppliers have been doing for some time as it is cheaper to manufacture (but more expensive to ship). I like that idea for some situations (e.g. flat roof installations) but it doesn't change the efficiency all that much in panels mounted at normal roof angles.

Three years ago, I had experience of these people leading customers to believe that their customers that their vacuum flask systems were made in Mayo, and that their 600 watt wind generators were made there also. I think the key here is the use of the words "Irish Developed". That's marketing for you... What is involved in development? Sourcing it? Putting a logo on it? Changing the size of a pipe fitting??

I've nothing against Chinese goods - I sell their vacuum flasks myself and like them, though I have found wind turbines from China to be terribly unreliable and am opting for a Korean generator for our own turbine.

I met the Surface Power directors last year. For a company who claim to have such an innovative cutting-edge product, their claim that they didn't want to sell, in their own words, "too many systems" sounded dubious.
They must be the only company in the world that didn't want to sell as much of their product as possible.

Oh, and ZOMBIE THREAD!!!! Muaaaaaaargggghhhhhhh :pac: