The Ultimate Irish Hunting Knife

fish slapped · 10-02-2009 1:11pm

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

How can a knife look Irish ??

My user is a Swamp Rat knifeworks 4 1/2 inch fixed that gets used for everything from gardening to hunting and fishing. I also have a Busse knife but it doesnt ever get used.

The same way the katana looks japanese, what we need to do is find a design which would give a distinctly Irish look but be practical at the same time.

This may possibly give some ideas:
http://www.knives.com/ireland_iron_age.html

Grizzly 45 · 10-02-2009 1:27pm

Intresting in the article on that is the "dual knife" concept,used by the Celts .A large sword and small utility knife for eating,cutting,and proably close in fighting.Blade designs though could be from anywhere in Europe in any historical epoch,

Darr · 10-02-2009 1:54pm

I spoke to a mate of mine the other night an made mention of this thread ..
He used dabble in collecting swords a few years back .. and he mentioned that there is an Irish sword design .. he thinks that it’s in fact a recognized design ...

anyways 3 seconds on Google today revealed this http://www.armor.com/2000/Catalog/item085.html

and this
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-irish-bastard-xix.htm

now I know it’s not a knife and a smaller version would be more or less useless for hunting .. but the hilt is interesting ..

any just another idea to fling in to this bubbling pot of creative gutting

Darr

fish slapped · 10-02-2009 2:27pm

bubbling pot of creative gutting

Darr[/quote]

What an expression

! you got to love that!

jwshooter · 10-02-2009 3:02pm

i think we should stick to the thread lads ,
as this could waffle on for ever .
the thread is the "ultimate hunting knife "used in the field so it has to be practical, light to carry , easy sharpen ,not rust ,not too big ,a reasonably priced tag and easy for the man to make.

it looks unfortunately like its a fixed blade ,i know we want our knife to be a original irish knife, this is not going to happen as every blade design possible is out there already .
so lets look at the better designed knifes out there .
have a look at ray mears mora ,cheap strong durable .
a blade of no more than 10 cm -4 inch s going into a good point ,no gut hook ,small brass hand guard ,

two versions should be made one a practical knife no bell or whistles ,impervious handle as timber handle knifes and the like are not allowed in the processing of game for human consumption .germs you know.

then no two ,leather sheath ,gaelic scrolls, goat horn .connemara marble polished on the thighs of virgins of you like

fish slapped · 10-02-2009 3:21pm

Sorry JW but I believe its "The ultimate Irish hunting knife" and it is the Irish area of this project we seem to have a difficulty with. The design must encapsulate the Irish-ness in its look and useability.

Darr · 10-02-2009 3:30pm

JWS "it looks unfortunately like its a fixed blade ,i know we want our knife to be a original irish knife, this is not going to happen as every blade design possible is out there already "

I take it you dont work in design then

,not much point in having this thread so .. but Im sure plenty of things could be used from Irish history that may make a knife better or more useful in the field ..

the Knife you describe can be bought neaarly anywhere .. think this was more on getting a IRISH knife and not copying a already manufactured design ..

just my view is all ..

I think I shall leave this for you real hunters seen as I may go hunting (rabbits) about twice a year

.

Darr

davymoore · 10-02-2009 6:25pm

Yes, Sat 22nd only

I think you guys are now getting to the real punch of this project

What I'd like at the end of this project is a knife that when looked at in 20 years time would be recognised as being from Ireland, The same way as looking at a Katana tells you it's Japanese or a Scimitar echos Asian Origin.

This aspect of the knife it's look, shape and feel of it, is what requires a cutting edge (pardon the pun) approach and is where we need the particular help of anyone working in the design field or anyone expert in Arts.

However it is just as important that the knife be practical, Usefull, and be suitable to our specific climate and suitable to be used on the variety of Game species typically found in our own native country. This is where blade shape, thickness, length and material all have to be taken into consideration.

It does look as though it will be a fixed blade unless something radical happens with the voting over the next couple of days. In hindsight I should have ended the pole after three days or so but to be honest I didn't expect the level of interest that the thread seems to have generated. I'm flabbergasted actually. That being said other areas will be ended faster in order to keep the momentum going.

So where to next ....

I would ask you to start thinking about some of the following areas

Blade Shape
Blade Length & Thickness
Blade Material (Steel Type)
Grind Style
Fixtures & Fittings (Guards, Pommels, Pins etc.)
Handle Shape
Handle Material
Sheath

PLEASE DON'T POST OPINIONS YET.
LET'S WAIT UNTIL EACH TOPIC IS APPROACHED INDIVIDUALLY

I'd like to point out that the finished project knife should be a knife which is field ready. Gold, Connemara Marble, Waterford Glass, Ogham Writing, Celtic Engraving etc. These elements would help make the knife look Irish allright and if I were a tourist looking for a souvenier then that might catch my eye the same way a piece of Beleek china might or a Guinness Leprechaun hat.

This project however is not to design the ultimate pointy souvenier. You are being challenged to design The Ultimate Irish Hunting knife.

If any of you arty types feel like sketching something up I think we'd all love to see some design suggestions posted.

On a final note If anyone has CAD or Solid Works experience it would be of particular use when getting down to final design. Any offers of help here would be very much appreciated.

I want to thank everyone that has participated so far and I am looking forward to the rest of the project.

Regards

Davy

Mellor · 10-02-2009 6:29pm

Maybe, I don't know yet.

Darr wrote: »

I spoke to a mate of mine the other night an made mention of this thread ..
He used dabble in collecting swords a few years back .. and he mentioned that there is an Irish sword design .. he thinks that it’s in fact a recognized design ...

anyways 3 seconds on Google today revealed this http://www.armor.com/2000/Catalog/item085.html

and this
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/nextgen/sword-medieval-irish-bastard-xix.htm

now I know it’s not a knife and a smaller version would be more or less useless for hunting .. but the hilt is interesting ..

any just another idea to fling in to this bubbling pot of creative gutting

Darr

I think that design was mentioned earlier in the thread, by Grizzley. Although thats the first picture as far as I know.

Just a quick question on something that has been mentioned alot.
Its been mentioned alot that the gimmick gut hooks don't work. Are people refering to all gut hooks. Or just the ones on the back of the knike.

Reference pics;
Back of knife
yhst-93727123504836_2041_32161525

Independant Fixed or sliding

fish slapped · 10-02-2009 6:32pm

ultimate pointy souvenier !!

How to use it in the field? I m not sure

fish slapped · 10-02-2009 6:35pm

some Iron age blades found in Ireland are said to be elbow shaped is this an option to include a gut hook of some sort??

Mellor · 10-02-2009 6:56pm

Maybe, I don't know yet.

davymoore wrote: »

I'd like to point out that the finished project knife should be a knife which is field ready. Gold, Connemara Marble, Waterford Glass, Ogham Writing, Celtic Engraving etc. These elements would help make the knife look Irish allright and if I were a tourist looking for a souvenier then that might catch my eye the same way a piece of Beleek china might or a Guinness Leprechaun hat.

This project however is not to design the ultimate pointy souvenier. You are being challenged to design The Ultimate Irish Hunting knife.

This was was I was refering to earlier. Good idea to avoid the tpourist trap. Glad to see we are on the same page.

If any of you arty types feel like sketching something up I think we'd all love to see some design suggestions posted.

On a final note If anyone has CAD or Solid Works experience it would be of particular use when getting down to final design. Any offers of help here would be very much appreciated.

I can help out with both of these if needed. Decent enough at sketching,
and CAD is my second language.

jwshooter · 10-02-2009 8:19pm

Darr wrote: »

JWS "it looks unfortunately like its a fixed blade ,i know we want our knife to be a original irish knife, this is not going to happen as every blade design possible is out there already "

I take it you dont work in design then ,not much point in having this thread so .. but Im sure plenty of things could be used from Irish history that may make a knife better or more useful in the field ..

the Knife you describe can be bought neaarly anywhere .. think this was more on getting a IRISH knife and not copying a already manufactured design ..

just my view is all ..

I think I shall leave this for you real hunters seen as I may go hunting (rabbits) about twice a year .

Darr

darr i have train as a butcher and use knife s more than most stalking,culling. i know what works.
i do work in design ,but not knifes.
every civilization in the world has made a cutting tool .to design a kinfe that has not already been made ,we will see . but i hope we do .
to make < the ultimate irish hunting knife > is it to be used or looked at ?

kowloon · 10-02-2009 9:17pm

Has anyone mentioned easy to clean yet?
Some wood coatings scrape or wash away after a while and a layer of muck gets into the the wood; makes the knife look really grubby over time.
Something I could put in the dishwasher would be nice.

J.R. · 10-02-2009 11:35pm

Maybe, I don't know yet.

No idea about knife making but find the thread very interesting -

Why do most manufacturers of hunting knives not use metal to make handle?

I'd imagine it could be cold to use during winter but other than that it would be easy to engrave, add scrool, designs, colour, etc.......something akin to that in the Book of Kells.

It could be tossed in dishwasher, would not swell or crack, would not chip or peel, ......it would also be possible to have a moulding of a deers head etc. at the top etc.

As suggested in a previous post a buzzer could be implanted in the handle and small receiver in sheath so when each is more than say..8feet apart....a buzzer would sound from the sheath ..to avoid loss. The battery holder could be incorporated in handle with a screw off top for replacement.

It could also have a some small LED's on each side of handle that would flash when removed from sheath to aid location in dark. All 'high tech' but could be tastefully & discreetly blended into handle whereby it would hardly be noticable.

An engraving of the old Irish deer with the giant antlers inscribed / blasted onto the blade would look awesome.

There must be some obvious reasons why....just can't thing of it.

Mellor · 11-02-2009 12:04am

Maybe, I don't know yet.

J.R. wrote: »

No idea about knife making but find the thread very interesting -

Why do most manufacturers of hunting knives not use metal to make handle?

There are a number of reasons. The first being grip. Metal doesn't provide much grip for the user, especially when wet. It wouldn't be the safest material. Now metal handle do exist, they are often shaped or textured to provide grip. The downside to this is that it can be quite rough on the user. I often heard a saying that a knife can cut both ways, in reference to the fact that when used in a stabbing, the blood of the attacker is often left on the handle.
There is also the hardness of metal, shock would be passed along easily as well as general impact during use. Wouldn't be as comfortable as wood or modern materials such as krayton

As suggested in a previous post a buzzer could be implanted in the handle and small receiver in sheath so when each is more than say..8feet apart....a buzzer would sound from the sheath ..to avoid loss. The battery holder could be incorporated in handle with a screw off top for replacement.

It could also have a some small LED's on each side of handle that would flash when removed from sheath to aid location in dark. All 'high tech' but could be tastefully & discreetly blended into handle whereby it would hardly be noticable.

An engraving of the old Irish deer with the giant antlers inscribed / blasted onto the blade would look awesome.

There must be some obvious reasons why....just can't thing of it.

Appearance aside, the cost of batterys would out weigh the sheath alot of the time. A better solution is a good old fashion belt loop on the sheath

jwshooter · 11-02-2009 12:05am

kill bill and dark vader meet Conan ! kinda

John Griffin · 11-02-2009 12:24am

J.R. wrote: »

No idea about knife making but find the thread very interesting -

Why do most manufacturers of hunting knives not use metal to make handle?

I'd imagine it could be cold to use during winter but other than that it would be easy to engrave, add scrool, designs, colour, etc.......something akin to that in the Book of Kells.

It could be tossed in dishwasher, would not swell or crack, would not chip or peel, ......it would also be possible to have a moulding of a deers head etc. at the top etc.

As suggested in a previous post a buzzer could be implanted in the handle and small receiver in sheath so when each is more than say..8feet apart....a buzzer would sound from the sheath ..to avoid loss. The battery holder could be incorporated in handle with a screw off top for replacement.

It could also have a some small LED's on each side of handle that would flash when removed from sheath to aid location in dark. All 'high tech' but could be tastefully & discreetly blended into handle whereby it would hardly be noticable.

An engraving of the old Irish deer with the giant antlers inscribed / blasted onto the blade would look awesome.

There must be some obvious reasons why....just can't thing of it.

Next you'll be suggesting a plastic handle. :eek:Well there was none of this high tech stuff in traditional knives in the past.:)

jwshooter · 11-02-2009 4:00pm

so whats the story are we going to make this knife or what ?

fixed blade
step two.....davy .

Mellor · 11-02-2009 5:01pm

Maybe, I don't know yet.

jwshooter wrote: »

so whats the story are we going to make this knife or what ?

fixed blade
step two.....davy .

I imagine its on to blade shape, was waiting for the go ahead from Davy. Not going to have alot of options and will probably be decided quickly.

davymoore · 11-02-2009 6:44pm

Yes, Sat 22nd only

I would like to move on to step 2 but I can't end the blimmin Poll as it won't time out till Friday Morning. Also I cant add a second poll. I am hoping that when the current poll eventually times out that I can add another at that point.

Anyway regarding Step 2 Mellor you are bang on mate

Blade Shape and Thickness

But also (As it looks like it will definitely be a fixed blade)

Full Tang or Hidden Tang

Just in case you are not sure of the difference.

No need to vote yet but feel free to express your opinions on why you like dislike a particular style.

Davy

I'll post some basic blade shapes later just to get the ball rolling

jwshooter · 11-02-2009 6:52pm

i would imagine the full tang is stronger and easier for you to make davy .

the blade shape you have there is grand for me .:D

just dont make it to thick or long .

davymoore · 11-02-2009 7:18pm

Yes, Sat 22nd only

The Full Tang is stronger but also heavier, additionally there isn't AS much room for design variations as there would be with the Hidden Tang.

Just a thought

davymoore · 11-02-2009 7:25pm

Yes, Sat 22nd only

I've just gotten some fascinating information regarding historical Irish knifemaking.

It seems that metal was considered so expensive and was so rare that it would have been regarded as a waste to use on anything but the finest of weapons. Long before the Celtic Tiger was a Kitten it seems that our ancestors made their hand tools and kitchenware from Wood. Bog Oak in fact.

The Bog Oak that existed then was so dense and hard that it could actually be tempered just like the steels of today. This would not produce a razor sharp knife but could certainly produce a tool capable of chopping vegetables and other household chores.

This method of manufacture would certainly explain the lack of examples surviving today.

lordarpad · 11-02-2009 7:34pm

Maybe, I don't know yet.

davymoore wrote: »

The Full Tang is stronger but also heavier, additionally there isn't AS much room for design variations as there would be with the Hidden Tang.

Just a thought

difficult one at this stage. can we argue blade shape first and take it from there? my vote is for full tang if we can get away with it and hidden if we can't? Or in other words it is not really relevant to me and would subordinate it to blade and handle shape.

jwshooter · 11-02-2009 7:43pm

davymoore wrote: »

I've just gotten some fascinating information regarding historical Irish knifemaking.

It seems that metal was considered so expensive and was so rare that it would have been regarded as a waste to use on anything but the finest of weapons. Long before the Celtic Tiger was a Kitten it seems that our ancestors made their hand tools and kitchenware from Wood. Bog Oak in fact.

The Bog Oak that existed then was so dense and hard that it could actually be tempered just like the steels of today. This would not produce a razor sharp knife but could certainly produce a tool capable of chopping vegetables and other household chores.

This method of manufacture would certainly explain the lack of examples surviving today.

tell us more davy, interesting ! was the metal mined any where .?
the bog oak should not be a problem .

Mellor · 11-02-2009 7:51pm

Maybe, I don't know yet.

Re tang, My preference would be full tang. I prefere the look but also the strength. The extra weight to me conveys a sense of quaility(ever pick something up and be surprised it was so light, feels cheap doesn't it). If weight was a real issue, we could go for a thiner blade.

I'm not fully sure if a new poll can be added. One of the shooting mods could change options and reset it maybe.

As for blade shape and thickness. Its probably a good idea to post options in the form of pictures. The one above appears to be a clip point. My preference would be for a drop point. Roach belly has also been mentioned. And its worth mentioning straight blade.
Proportion is also important, not all drop points are the same. I'd lean towards 90mm long and 25mm at the guard.

Edit: Here are some blade shapes. Only the first few are relevant.

Normal blade/Striaght back
Curved back
Clip point (the clip is over emphasised in the pic, can also be straight see the tang pictures above)
Drop point, one of the more common shapes for hunting lknives. The drop can start much closer to the handle than shown
Spear point, similar to drop, except symmetrical

IMO the rest are irrelevant, but include needle-point, spay-point, tanto, sheepsfoot and ulu

davymoore · 11-02-2009 8:01pm

Yes, Sat 22nd only

jwshooter wrote: »

so whats the story are we going to make this knife or what ?

fixed blade
step two.....davy .

I have thought ablout this project for a very long time and want to make sure it is done correctly. The formula is not complicated but paitience will be required. We havent even started getting to the tough decisions yet.
If you don't mind I'll carry this project along at my pace.When I'm happy that each step has been discussed well enough and has been voted on fairly we will move along but not before.

At the end of the day my name has to go on this knife. My reputation is at stake. I knew this when I began and even though my wife advised against it I wanted to go ahead. The goal of the Ultimate Irish Hunting Knife might not be achievable but whatever the final design is will be a very fine knife indeed, if we take our time and work through each stage fully and properly.

Davy

davymoore · 11-02-2009 8:21pm

Yes, Sat 22nd only

Here are some blade shapes. Only the first few are relevant.

Sorry Mellor but I find this kinda funny youll se why in a minute

davymoore · 11-02-2009 8:31pm

Yes, Sat 22nd only

Right folks here are some blade shapes just to get you thinking

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

The Ultimate Irish Hunting Knife

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