Gay Rugby- A step forward or a step backward

4zn76tysfajdxp · 11-12-2008 1:32pm

All rugby is a step backwards.

ejmaztec · 11-12-2008 1:35pm

Gay Rugby's a bummer!

ShooterSF · 11-12-2008 1:40pm

Bunch of men stickin their heads up each others ass reaching for balls. Hmm can't see the gays being interested.
The question I have is will there be pressure on them now to have gay players in their team and if so could a better straight player be kept out of the team? Would that be discrimination on sexual preferences then?
It's a real minefield when you do things like this.

ShagNastii · 11-12-2008 1:45pm

I think people being defined by their sexually is a load of bollix!!!

We're queer and we're here. Well done. I thinking of starting a hetrosexual rugby team shock horror shock horror.

Reflector · 11-12-2008 1:49pm

javaboy wrote: »

Ideally at some point down the line they could drop the "gay friendly" tag as it would be no longer necessary.

yeah that's what one would hope

javaboy · 11-12-2008 1:53pm

ShagNastii wrote: »

I think people being defined by their sexually is a load of bollix!!!

We're queer and we're here. Well done. I thinking of starting a hetrosexual rugby team shock horror shock horror.

If you actually read what it's about you'll see it's not a "we're here and we're queer" thing at all. It's just basically a rugby club open to anybody where the social scene (which is a huge part of rugby) is gay-friendly. You don't have to be gay to join but basically if you are, you won't be excluded or feel sidelined like you might at other clubs.

It obviously grew out of a feeling of exclusion gay rugby players experienced at other clubs. It's no harm really. It might sound like a bit of a gimmick to us straight white males but I can see the practical side of it.

oztots · 11-12-2008 1:55pm

Im worried about gay mma, thats a real worrying thought.

Also i believe more women should get involved in mma, or at least BJJ, its a gentle sport.

ven0m · 11-12-2008 2:07pm

Gay rugby or 'pro-gay' organisations should be outlawed.

If I were to advertise a rugby team as 'hetrosexual rugby', I'd be done for descrimination & there'd be outrage. If I decided that perhaps one day a year I'd like a Hetrosexual pride parade, I'd be laughed down, told to eff off & go away.

Either you want equality or you don't, this isn't a have-your-cake-and-eat-it thing; either equality exists or it doesn't.

javaboy · 11-12-2008 2:11pm

ven0m wrote: »

Gay rugby or 'pro-gay' organisations should be outlawed.

If I were to advertise a rugby team as 'hetrosexual rugby', I'd be done for descrimination & there'd be outrage. If I decided that perhaps one day a year I'd like a Hetrosexual pride parade, I'd be laughed down, told to eff off & go away.

Either you want equality or you don't, this isn't a have-your-cake-and-eat-it thing.

In fairness it's not one of those positive discrimination things where gay people are given preference over straight people. It's more like a building that has lifts and ramps and wheelchair accessible toilets advertising that fact.

There's obviously an issue with sporting organisations where some gay people feel left out. That will slowly change without any gay-friendly clubs but in the mean time there's a whole load of gay people who'd like to play rugby without having to pretend to be something they're not in order to fit in. I can't see the harm in it and that's from someone who hates the idea of positive discrimination.

oztots · 11-12-2008 2:15pm

By the looks of it a gay friendly club is a step forwards. What isnt a step towards equality is black only clubs, women only clubs and gyms and everything else that wont let me in.

I wanted to get into curves cos the adds had some stunners in it, not allowed.
Women want to play golf, they whine until they're let.

If you're allowed into my space, im allowed in yours. Or is equality weighted?

4zn76tysfajdxp · 11-12-2008 2:19pm

oztots wrote: »

By the looks of it a gay friendly club is a step forwards. What isnt a step towards equality is black only clubs, women only clubs and gyms and everything else that wont let me in.

I wanted to get into curves cos the adds had some stunners in it, not allowed.
Women want to play golf, they whine until they're let.

If you're allowed into my space, im allowed in yours. Or is equality weighted?

You are if you're going to Curves.

ven0m · 11-12-2008 2:19pm

javaboy wrote: »

In fairness it's not one of those positive discrimination things where gay people are given preference over straight people. It's more like a building that has lifts and ramps and wheelchair accessible toilets advertising that fact.

There's obviously an issue with sporting organisations where some gay people feel left out. That will slowly change without any gay-friendly clubs but in the mean time there's a whole load of gay people who'd like to play rugby without having to pretend to be something they're not in order to fit in. I can't see the harm in it and that's from someone who hates the idea of positive discrimination.

Are people not allowed to be 'proud' of their hetrosexuality, or is 'pride' only reserved for those who feel the need to keep telling us they are 'marginalised'?

I don't care who does what to who or when or how as long as it's all above board, legal & consenting. But I am sick of having this 'pride' malarky shoved down my throat. I am a proud white hetrosexual male, I should be able along with other similar people celebrate that without someone going 'Oi, you're making some people feel marginalised'.

Chris Rock was right - reverse racism & descrimination is worse & rife.

javaboy · 11-12-2008 2:25pm

ven0m wrote: »

Are people not allowed to be 'proud' of their hetrosexuality, or is 'pride' only reserved for those who feel the need to keep telling us they are 'marginalised'?

Who is stopping you being proud of your hetereosexuality? Not me and certainly not some gay-friendly rugby club.

I don't care who does what to who or when or how as long as it's all above board, legal & consenting. But I am sick of having this 'pride' malarky shoved down my throat. I am a proud white hetrosexual male, I should be able along with other similar people celebrate that without someone going 'Oi, you're making some people feel marginalised'.

Again who is stopping you? They're not saying all other clubs have to stop being the way they are. They are simply saying, "We accept that a lot of the social scene around sport is hetero-based. That's not going to change for the majority of clubs any time soon so we'll just set up our own club where gay people can feel a little more accepted."

Chris Rock was right - reverse racism & descrimination is worse & rife.

Yes and he's right. But this is not a case of racism/discrimination reverse or otherwise. There's nothing stopping a straight guy joining the team.

Gauge · 11-12-2008 2:28pm

Yay, another After Hours thread about how it's just so hard to be a white heterosexual male

ven0m · 11-12-2008 2:30pm

javaboy wrote: »

Who is stopping you being proud of your hetereosexuality? Not me and certainly not some gay-friendly rugby club.

Again who is stopping you? They're not saying all other clubs have to stop being the way they are. They are simply saying, "We accept that a lot of the social scene around sport is hetero-based. That's not going to change for the majority of clubs any time soon so we'll just set up our own club where gay people can feel a little more accepted."

Yes and he's right. But this is not a case of racism/discrimination reverse or otherwise. There's nothing stopping a straight guy joining the team.

You're missing the point. Equality is not a case of forty shades of grey'. it is absolute in the eyes of the law, so there should be no reason to allow these clubs or associations advertise on that basis. That's the crux of my argument; You can't say as a group you want equality, then use a form of reverse discrimination, the same as you can't advertise something as 'catholic friendly', or as 'Asian Friendly' or whatever.

The law is very clearcut, & this kind of malarky needs to be stamped out, especially if the 'marginalized' people claim they want equality. Does it matter if people are gay or not, no. It's immaterial, so why advertise it, promote it or purport it?

ven0m · 11-12-2008 2:31pm

Gauge wrote: »

Yay, another After Hours thread about how it's just so hard to be a white heterosexual male

You're a woman, you wouldn't know.

ShooterSF · 11-12-2008 3:13pm

Gauge wrote: »

Yay, another After Hours thread about how it's just so hard to be a white heterosexual male

Hey it's tough. If people don't like us we have to believe it's our personality. We dont have the race card to hide behind

Reflector · 11-12-2008 3:18pm

ven0m wrote: »

Gay rugby or 'pro-gay' organisations should be outlawed.

If I were to advertise a rugby team as 'hetrosexual rugby', I'd be done for descrimination & there'd be outrage. If I decided that perhaps one day a year I'd like a Hetrosexual pride parade, I'd be laughed down, told to eff off & go away.

You're missing the point ven0m, it's not advertised as a gay rugby team but a team where gay/straight/bi men can play rugby together. It is a social outlet as well and we do not discriminate and the coaching staff are straight men and straight men have played for the team as well.

ven0m wrote: »

Either you want equality or you don't, this isn't a have-your-cake-and-eat-it thing; either equality exists or it doesn't.

If you think that Gays have equality here in Ireland you are very naive, it is better than before which is the reason that a team like this can exist but it certainly isn't equal yet.

ShagNastii · 11-12-2008 3:27pm

Reflector wrote: »

You're missing the point ven0m, it's not advertised as a gay rugby team but a team where gay/straight/bi men can play rugby together. It is a social outlet as well and we do not discriminate and the coaching staff are straight men and straight men have played for the team as well.

That is pretty much every sporting team in the country. Upon joining a rugby team/GAA team/Martial Art you don't fill in a form which ask are you gay? And excludes you if you tick the box

Reflector · 11-12-2008 3:32pm

ven0m wrote: »

Gay rugby or 'pro-gay' organisations should be outlawed.
Either you want equality or you don't, this isn't a have-your-cake-and-eat-it thing; either equality exists or it doesn't.

just want to highlight this statement again

DubArk · 11-12-2008 3:38pm

ven0m wrote: »

Are people not allowed to be 'proud' of their hetrosexuality, or is 'pride' only reserved for those who feel the need to keep telling us they are 'marginalised'?

Where in this thread did anyone seriously mention that "gay pride", had anything to do with the op's thread? It was GAY FREINDLY!

ven0m wrote: »

You're missing the point. Equality is not a case of forty shades of grey'. it is absolute in the eyes of the law, so there should be no reason to allow these clubs or associations advertise on that basis. That's the crux of my argument; You can't say as a group you want equality, then use a form of reverse discrimination, the same as you can't advertise something as 'catholic friendly', or as 'Asian Friendly' or whatever.

The law is very clearcut, & this kind of malarky needs to be stamped out, especially if the 'marginalized' people claim they want equality. Does it matter if people are gay or not, no. It's immaterial, so why advertise it, promote it or purport it?

I haven't heard of Catholics or Asian been discriminated in Ireland in 2008. I believe that both groups (who may or may not contain gays) standing on the religious and race theme; that you have brought up, would not be dissuaded from joining a rugby club, due to these attributes. Therefore it would be ridiculous to call the club 'catholic friendly', or as 'Asian Friendly' or whatever! What would be the reason?

They might as well say they are straight white male friendly!! Pointless!

What you talking about would be all fine and well in an ideal world and I wish the world you’re talking about existed but it doesn’t.

I agree that to only have a gay team is wrong, same applies if it was only a black, catholic, straight, Asian team.

But it’s a "gay friendly team" and the laws you talk about dose not reflect what your saying either. I don’t want to drag the whole equal rights campaign into this thread but equal rights do not exist in Ireland (ROI) as an absolute in the eyes of the law either.

I would never support tokenism or positive discrimination because they are wholly wrong and only lead to discrimination in the long run.

ven0m · 11-12-2008 3:44pm

advertising something as 'insert-marginalised-group-name-here-friendly' doesn't help remove marginalisation, or promote it, & is in fact a form of reverse discrimination, & only furthers that discrimination, except it is the people who feel 'discriminated' against who are furthering it, not the perpetrators.

ALL organisations sporting or otherwise should already be 'gay-friendly', after all gay is perfectly normal. Any issues with 'unfriendliness' towards 'gays' or otherwise should be dealt with though the equality commission, who are there to help ensure EQUALITY. There is no need to set up 'friendly' organisations

And sorry, equal rights DO exist in ireland in the eyes of the law, as they are part of our constitution via the European convention on human rights & Equality, & they are fully enforced every day in our courts, where cases are brought daily.

DubArk · 11-12-2008 3:50pm

ven0m wrote: »

advertising something as 'insert-marginalised-group-name-here-friendly' doesn't help remove marginalisation, or promote it, & is in fact a form of reverse discrimination, & only furthers that discrimination, except it is the people who feel 'discriminated' against who are furthering it, not the perpetrators.

ALL organisations sporting or otherwise should already be 'gay-friendly', after all gay is perfectly normal. Any issues with 'unfriendliness' towards 'gays' or otherwise should be dealt with though the equality commission, who are there to help ensure EQUALITY. There is no need to set up 'friendly' organisations

And sorry, equal rights DO exist in ireland in the eyes of the law, as they are part of our constitution via the European convention on human rights & Equality, & they are fully enforced every day in our courts, where cases are brought daily.

It is Ireland your talking about??? or gay friendly Utopia?:D

jill_valentine · 11-12-2008 3:51pm

Lads, it's not just about preference, there's no sexing up men test at the try-outs. It's a community thing. A bunch of gay dudes wanted to form a rugby team, so they did. If I wanted to make a rugby team with my mates, I could. What's the big deal?

Like I said before, it's gay friendly, not gay only. If you want to join, ring 'em up, 'specially if you're any good at rugby. Although... gosh, it would suck to be the only guy of your persuasion on a team, wouldn't it?

Wouldn't it?

Not quite part of the gang?

...

Morlar · 11-12-2008 3:55pm

JDLK wrote: »

Gay Rugby- A step forward or a step backward

It's just a jump to the left.

ven0m · 11-12-2008 3:57pm

DubArk wrote: »

It is Ireland your talking about??? or gay friendly Utopia?:D

last time I checked, Ireland was a free democratic state that has fully integrated the human rights acts of Europe into our national legal framework, and that has created the appropriate commissions & bodies to investigate, & if needs be punish those who breech those legal frameworks.

If 'gay people' feel they are being discriminated against at Rugby clubs, or the social events at it aren't inclusive, raise it at the board level of the club, who are duty bound (not to mention legally obliged) to take all levels of appropriate action, and to ensure all aspects of their organisation are inclusive, & conform to the equality acts.

or is it that people who create 'friendly' organisations have something to hide & there's another agenda to their inception, where they feel they can engage in polarising discrimination without engaging frameworks there to protect them & remove the needs to create such 'friendly' organisations.

Perfectly reasonable questions & statements.

flyton5 · 11-12-2008 4:06pm

stovelid wrote: »

Surely they mean gayer rugby.

name a straighter sport....;)

ven0m · 11-12-2008 4:07pm

flyton5 wrote: »

name a straighter sport....;)

Badminton

DubArk · 11-12-2008 4:17pm

ven0m wrote: »

last time I checked, Ireland was a free democratic state that has fully integrated the human rights acts of Europe into our national legal framework, and that has created the appropriate commissions & bodies to investigate, & if needs be punish those who breech those legal frameworks.

If 'gay people' feel they are being discriminated against at Rugby clubs, or the social events at it aren't inclusive, raise it at the board level of the club, who are duty bound (not to mention legally obliged) to take all levels of appropriate action, and to ensure all aspects of their organisation are inclusive, & conform to the equality acts.

or is it that people who create 'friendly' organisations have something to hide & there's another agenda to their inception, where they feel they can engage in polarising discrimination without engaging frameworks there to protect them & remove the needs to create such 'friendly' organisations.

Perfectly reasonable questions & statements.

When did you last check?? Did you go forward in a time machine, what was it like?? Is Biffo and the lads still running the county down the shi**er?

A wee example for you:

Ireland does not currently allow access to civil marriage for its gay and lesbian citizens.
The Civil Partnerships Bill (2008) was presented to the Cabinet on 24th June 2008.
It is expected to complete the parliamentary process by mid 2009 at the latest.
No one is sure what date this will happen!?

One major criticism states that the legislation effectively enshrines discrimination in law insofar as separate contractual arrangements with greater privileges will continue to exist for opposite-sex marriages concurrent to lesser arrangements for those wishing to take out Civil Partnerships.:(

Perfectly reasonable answer!

Now can we get back on topic as this has been flogged to death on other threads please?

Hrududu · 11-12-2008 4:50pm

The question I have is will there be pressure on them now to have gay players in their team and if so could a better straight player be kept out of the team? Would that be discrimination on sexual preferences then?

There are straight players on the team. I don't think "gay friendly" means what you think it means.

Gay Rugby- A step forward or a step backward

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