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Scumbags - Zero Tolerance?

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2

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    #32
    Dont be at yourself
    Registered Users Posts: 10,571 ✭✭✭✭Dont be at yourself


    Zero tolerance all the way. You can argue about the causes of anti-social behaviour until the cows come home, you can build ammenities and have training courses and so on, but the fact of the matter is that scangers are a law unto themselves, and until they get put back in their box, they're going to keep breaking laws and harrassing people.

    We need a cop on every street corner. It worked for New York.


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    #33
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    It did not work for New York, thats a fallacy that is not bourne out by the numbers.

    There was, and has been, a huge drop in crime in the states. This has been experienced by all major cities, some of whom had ZT like NY but most of whom didn't.

    The drop in crime rate coincided with the 18th anniversary of Row vs Wade which legalised abortion in the US.

    The simple fact is that unwanted children are far far more likely to become criminals and by allowing mothers to decide if they are in a position to give these kids a stable home. By legalising abortion the US inadvertently sowed the seeds of their crime rate drop.

    The same happened in reverse in Romania under Chauchescu.

    DeV.


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    #34
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    monkeyfudge wrote: »
    A better standard of education is the answer.

    If morals and ethics aren't going to be taught at home then they should be taught in the schools.

    More amenities and facilities should be put in place to occupy the time of teenagers as well.

    All this calling for extra police and policing powers is moronic if the roots of the social problems aren't going to be combated.

    I am Social Policy Student and I would love to totally agree with you but I can't. The truth is that many kids are just out of control by the time they get to secondary school. Parents just don't know how to be parents anymore. I remember when I was in 6th year and we all noticed just how little respect the younger years were giving to the school. Total anarchy. I have seen kids the size of a 5 year old fearlessly giving a very imposing teacher a kick in the balls for **** sake!

    I do not agree with zero tolerance. Cleaning are streets up needs to start from a very young age. Making sure that respect is taught at home and giving primary schools the freedom to discipline disrespectful children without parents coming up shouting 'abuse'! Cos what happens if parents are going to protect their delinquents? They are going to think they can do whatever they want and they will always be backed up by their parents.


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    #35
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    Kold wrote: »
    All we need is a higher police presence on the streets at night. As far as random bag searches go, yes I'd rather you got stabbed in the face. You'd be one in several thousand rather than 1 in 5 of us going down for having a nodge.

    Well then dont carry your nodge around with ya.Something that really pisses me off is people smoking hash in public or on buses..what satisfaction can you get toking outside a shopping centre?Wait till ya get home,keep a low profile and you wont get busted.


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    #36
    Handsome Bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,905 ✭✭✭✭Handsome Bob


    Degsy wrote: »
    Well then dont carry your nodge around with ya.Something that really pisses me off is people smoking hash in public or on buses..what satisfaction can you get toking outside a shopping centre?Wait till ya get home,keep a low profile and you wont get busted.

    Well it's the whole 'look at me I'm mad' attitude. It's about building cred with their peers. It's total idiocy of course but this is how 'mad things' work.


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    #37
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" -- Benjamin Franklin.

    DeV.


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    #38
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    LZ5by5 wrote: »
    Well it's the whole 'look at me I'm mad' attitude. It's about building cred with their peers. It's total idiocy of course but this is how 'mad things' work.

    Likewise the clowns who talk about thier criminal exploits on crowded buses,they give names,dates,adresses,everything.They havnt the first clue about engaging in proper criminal behaviour ie you keep yer mouth shut.Have an undercover cop down the back of most buses and half these ****wits will be in jail in weeks.


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    #39
    Rob_l
    Registered Users Posts: 2,905 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    cherubaul wrote: »
    yes yes yes....... as i said the methods are draconian but are the civilised alternatives working? in my opinion no.


    Sorry what? You recommend these dark ages practices but as far as I recall from my history studies I don't remember a Utopian peaceful country existing when last these laws where enacted, so what has changed has human nature changed has man evolved what makes these failed practices worth bringing back?


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    #40
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    This problem didnt spring up overnight, the govt, the gardai and society in general had no problems with allowing the environment scumbags require to thrive in to develop, so long as they stayed within that environment.


    The gardai already have beacoup powers to sort this out (forget the trading liberty for security concerns, we made that trade in years ago because the gub'ment were scared of the 'RA)

    it would however take a lot of will power from those in charge to tackle the problem and that aint gonna happen, they've other priorities.


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    #41
    skywalker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,707 ✭✭✭skywalker


    Kernel wrote: »
    I think we should call them 'guttersnipes' instead of scumbags... who's with me? :D


    I like it, you dont hear enough about guttersnipes anymore *shakes walking stick*


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    #42
    Rob_l
    Registered Users Posts: 2,905 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    Zero tolerance doesn't work it just creates more criminals, if you are already branded something what is there to fear from being just that, we already know prison doesn't reform criminals, hundreds of years have proven this, so how will a society with more people branded as criminals fix the issue?

    How much does it cost the state every year in policing and court fee's to punish people for minor crimes already, surely it would better to do away with minor crimes such as drug taking were the only victim is in fact the perpetrator of the crime.


    "In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity."
    Hunter S. Thompson


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    #43
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Rob_l wrote: »
    we already know prison doesn't reform criminals,

    We do?

    Prison was never meant to reform criminals


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    #44
    Tazdedub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 191 ✭✭Tazdedub


    Rob_l wrote: »
    Zero tolerance doesn't work it just creates more criminals, if you are already branded something what is there to fear from being just that, we already know prison doesn't reform criminals, hundreds of years have proven this, so how will a society with more people branded as criminals fix the issue?

    How much does it cost the state every year in policing and court fee's to punish people for minor crimes already, surely it would better to do away with minor crimes such as drug taking were the only victim is in fact the perpetrator of the crime.

    Rob_I so if Zero Tolerance doesnt work and neither does prison then what would work? Would sitting down with the guttersnipes and having a little chat work?

    For me the best way to go is if the guttersnipe is guilty then give them a jail term but one of the requirements is for the guttersnipe to be part of a work gang that clean up all the p**s, sh**, glass and whatever else during their sentence.


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    #45
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    Cut the dole and get rid od "social" housing.If you're working its a struggle to find somewher to live,if you're not they give you an gaff for nothing.


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    #46
    Rob_l
    Registered Users Posts: 2,905 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    Tazdedub wrote: »
    Rob_I so if Zero Tolerance doesnt work and neither does prison then what would work? Would sitting down with the guttersnipes and having a little chat work?

    For me the best way to go is if the guttersnipe is guilty then give them a jail term but one of the requirements is for the guttersnipe to be part of a work gang that clean up all the p**s, sh**, glass and whatever else during their sentence.


    Prison and criminalization of people is the last resort but in a zero tolerance society its a first call.
    For many crimes there is nothing to be done but prison, I am not advocating a society of good ideas and free criminals but further adding more people into that system whereby the only route left to them after being jailed is further crime, because who will hire a criminal, is surely not an answer to a problem but a problem in itself


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    #47
    Agamemnon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭Agamemnon


    Rob_l wrote: »
    I am not advocating a society of good ideas and free criminals but further adding more people into that system whereby the only route left to them after being jailed is further crime, because who will hire a criminal, is surely not an answer to a problem but a problem in itself
    What are you advocating then? What should we do with criminals? The main reasons we lock criminals up are to punish them and to protect society from them. If they can be reformed while inside, that's great, but many of them are unwilling or unable to change.


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    #48
    Peteee
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 2,432 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peteee


    Kernel wrote: »
    After all, I wouldn't mind being stopped and searched (since I've nothing to hide) once in a while, as it wouldn't affect my life. Being knifed in the face by some scumbag carrying a concealed weapon would be much more inconvenient! :) What do you think?

    I think someone hasn't read 1984


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    #49
    Rob_l
    Registered Users Posts: 2,905 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    Agamemnon wrote: »
    What are you advocating then? What should we do with criminals? The main reasons we lock criminals up are to punish them and to protect society from them. If they can be reformed while inside, that's great, but many of them are unwilling or unable to change.


    This is fine unfortunately there is no better system at the minute but to lock up criminals or perhaps taking certain arab countries attitudes and removing limbs but neither method works neither stops crime.

    We know sending people to prison does not stop them committing crimes in fact it may increase the seriousness of the crimes they commit upon release.

    So now to zero tolerance.
    How does increasing the number of people we will criminalise over trivial matters, who are perhaps best dealt with outside the judicial system improve anything, surely this will only increase the amount of serious life criminals.


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    #50
    Charlie
    Registered Users Posts: 9,810 ✭✭✭Charlie


    Guardian Angels FTW.

    Get some of these brothers over.

    Seriously though, I think such a scheme, if properly led and organised, could help.

    Most guttersnipes are cowards and would be doing half the $hit they do in the presence of an organization such as the Guardian Angels.


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    #51
    HammerHeadGym
    Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    I think there should be some sort of 'why you shouldn't act like a knacker' type education in schools. If I was in power there'd be a dozen or so cartoons on how to behave like a human being, the south park lads would write them and they'd be mandatory viewing every morning for the school kids.

    You can't change a grown up's mind, but kids heads are like butter.


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    #52
    Davidius
    Registered Users Posts: 4,893 ✭✭✭Davidius


    Jackovarian wrote: »
    what about sending them off to the army or something on offence?

    like if they offend, make it possible for a judge to order them into the army for service.

    You would actually trust a scumbag with duties the army is supposed to perform?






    OK.


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    #53
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Define scumbag?

    Is ther an entry level amont of crime this person needs to engage in before they get the title, or is it simply a genetic thing.. ie.. white cat white kittens?


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    #54
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    they'd be okay for mine clearance and bullet soaking


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    #55
    Rob_l
    Registered Users Posts: 2,905 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    Davidius wrote: »
    You would actually trust a scumbag with duties the army is supposed to perform?
    OK.


    I would I would actively encourage it as a method for reducing delinquency in young offenders a year being shouted and doing as told would be good for many and I cant see many negatives.

    I cant see what duties your worried the army performs that these young men and women would be unable to perform.

    I would be a bit worried though about training any young people from limerick in firearms use:D:D:D


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    #56
    Rob_l
    Registered Users Posts: 2,905 ✭✭✭Rob_l


    snyper wrote: »
    Define scumbag?

    Is ther an entry level amont of crime this person needs to engage in before they get the title, or is it simply a genetic thing.. ie.. white cat white kittens?

    And while we are on a white subject what about the so called white collar crime should these people not equally be called scumbags


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    #57
    Executive Steve
    Registered Users Posts: 3,373 ✭✭✭Executive Steve


    DeVore wrote: »
    It did not work for New York, thats a fallacy that is not bourne out by the numbers.

    There was, and has been, a huge drop in crime in the states. This has been experienced by all major cities, some of whom had ZT like NY but most of whom didn't.

    The drop in crime rate coincided with the 18th anniversary of Row vs Wade which legalised abortion in the US.

    The simple fact is that unwanted children are far far more likely to become criminals and by allowing mothers to decide if they are in a position to give these kids a stable home. By legalising abortion the US inadvertently sowed the seeds of their crime rate drop.

    The same happened in reverse in Romania under Chauchescu.

    DeV.




    Row vs. Wade were the two options available to New Orleanss' low income families caught up in the Katrina disaster.

    Roe vs. Wade was the landmark ruling at the Supreme court of the United States.

    :pac:


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    #58
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users Posts: 10,894 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    they should all die in a grease fire imo


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    #59
    all the stars
    Registered Users Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭all the stars


    dunno how zero tolerance would work.. em, if the courts were even remotely up to date with the way things are and changed laws accordingly things would maybe work better.

    example:
    Some person breaks into my house to rob me/ kill me whatever - i choose to protect myself & my family, stab the guy - why do i get done for manslaughter? The person had no business breaking into my house..

    Factual example :
    Guy smashes back window & takes car keys. owner wakes and breaks the guy up.. (i would too if i was able) and the thieving s*ite who broke in did yer man for assault. And won.

    If a judge sentances you to 40 years, you should serve all 40, not get 10 years off right away - just coz the scones tasted nice at lunchtime.
    Sorry to say - Plenty of guards need sorting out too.. yup, its not an easy job but god they dont half get carried away sometimes..


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    #60
    It wasn't me!
    Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    HammerHeadGym wrote: »
    You can't change a grown up's mind, but kids heads are like butter.

    Easier to work with after a brief stint in a microwave?


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    #61
    Denis Irwin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 684 ✭✭✭Denis Irwin


    Degsy wrote: »
    Cut the dole and get rid od "social" housing.If you're working its a struggle to find somewher to live,if you're not they give you an gaff for nothing.


    Agree 100%. I find it amazing that there's people who work their fingers to the bone to scrape together money so they can afford a house and yet there's scrotes who do nothing all day and live off dole who are given a free gaff by the Corpo :rolleyes: :mad:


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