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O'Gara

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    #32
    redmca
    Closed Accounts Posts: 115 ✭✭redmca


    It's true that the idea of a radical shake-up in the captaincy stakes while EOS stays in charge are simply pie in the sky.

    However, in the event he gets the push, then the new guy will have a free hand to pick someone new. Heaslip stands out as the first confirmed member of the post-golden era (followed by Kearney, Redden ......). Didn't he captain the Ireland under 21's in the WC??
    Assuming BOD and POC can swallow their pride, I think they would be liberated to concentrate on playing. ROG will still remain the general on the field but I have always felt the captain should be a forward and ideally in the back row where they have a good overview of things.


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    #33
    mc23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭mc23


    I think ROG will only be appreciated some Ireland fans when he retires from international rugby and judging by whats coming through it might be a long time before we have a number 10 to fill his boots.
    I don't like turning this debate into an Ireland v Munster thing but does anyone have any theories why he is able to put in such brilliant performances for Munster and (some people feel) not for Ireland.


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    #34
    buck65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭buck65


    I think when in Munster colours O Gara has a very clear idea of what the game plan is. Actually apart from the World cup O gara's Irish performances have been consistently good and some times outstanding. Ok he mightn't be the best tackler, but there is alot more to playing out half than tackling. His place kicking is immense. His out of hand kicking is the best in the business. What a rubbish thread actually!


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    #35
    anonymous_joe
    Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    buck65 wrote: »
    I think when in Munster colours O Gara has a very clear idea of what the game plan is. Actually apart from the World cup O gara's Irish performances have been consistently good and some times outstanding. Ok he mightn't be the best tackler, but there is alot more to playing out half than tackling. His place kicking is immense. His out of hand kicking is the best in the business. What a rubbish thread actually!

    Alright, I don't agree with the ROG is **** brigade, but I see where they're coming from, so I'll take up this post.

    - 'I think when in Munster colours...' Does that mean he doesn't understand the game plan? I think (think, ie, my opinion) is that he well knew what it was against Wales. And it involved kicking the ball away every time. Did he kick well? Not really.

    - 'Apart from the WC' New Zealand are widely held to be big game bottlers. That's actually bull****. The pressure is immense, but the game against France was actually unlucky, sort of like United Portsmouth, we all knew who were better, but every now and then you lose, it happens. What's this got to do with O'Gara? The World Cup featured him at his peak as a professional sportsman. All sorts of personal rumours dogged him, and he didn't have the mental strength to play on. That's not good enough. I know not many people could cope with that level of pressure, but not many people are playing professional rugby. If he can't produce the goods in important games, why have him? (I know this is overly harsh, it's merely for the sake of argument)

    - 'He mightn't be the best tackler...' Under O'Gara's stewardship, the No. 10 channel has become a serious weak point in his teams. Luckily for him, not many teams can challenge Munster, and to a lesser extent Ireland. When he does get challenged he looks very weak and appears to panic. Moreover, tackling is one of the fundamental rugby skills. Trimble has received a load of complaints for missing one tackle against Shane Williams, probably the wriggliest man in World Rugby. That was one tackle. How can we justify O'Gara's generic dislike of the tackle.

    - 'His place kicking' Is brilliant. No-one'll deny that. He's worth a good few points every game, and doesn't bottle his kicks as he did in his youth. (and as most of us would)

    - 'His out of hand kicking...' Here I get very ambivalent not just towards RoG but to the entire team. Our lineouts have been dismal to put it kindly. Criminally embarrsasing would be more accurate. What's the point of kicking for touch when you don't have a viable lineout. This leads to another flaw...

    Both Eoin Reddan and O'Gara made a major error on Saturday - they embodied predictability. Every time he had a chance Reddan went for a quick tap, a quick run, etc etc. Thus the surprise value was lost, and all we ended up doing was squandering potential chances to slow down the game or kick for touch, if that's what we wanted to do.

    O'Gara did the same thing. Every time he got the ball he did the same thing with it. He kicked it. Each time. Meaning that Wales didn't have to defend against O'Driscoll, Trimble, Reddan... Why not? Because they knew they weren't going to get a sight of the ball, let alone a chance to hold it. O'Gara should have had the sense to use the full arsenal of options he had. If the coach wouldn't let him, then he doesn't have the balls to stand his corner, and shouldn't be an international captain, ever.

    I appreciate that this is probably a little harsh, and, to forestall a dozen triumphant posts, I'm aware that there is no other Irish outhalf as good as him.


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    #36
    quagmire69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭quagmire69


    buck65 wrote: »
    What a rubbish thread actually!

    Then don't comment.


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    #37
    Crash
    Registered Users Posts: 11,195 ✭✭✭✭Crash


    I'd be opposed to O'Gara getting the captaincy long-term, the last thing we want is O'Gara guaranteed his place every match until he retires - that'll be a fast route to our lads being in ****e for a number 10 in years to come.


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    #38
    rockman15
    Registered Users Posts: 277 ✭✭rockman15


    lads there is an element of truth in what your all saying.

    1 BOD cant controlt he game form outside centre....he doesnt get enough ball int he right spot to do that.

    2 ROG as captain, theoretically is a good idea, but will stop any up and coming 10's from getting game time i.e Sexton at Leinster....

    3 outhalf is easier to control the game at, but when your coach tells you to kick for the afternoon youll have about 1.3secs worth of posession each time your in control, so your never goign to release wide players

    4 Gleeson is clearly the man for the captain job....he is a trojan of man and for some reason rarely never puts in a bad performance...not sure how vocal he'd be...but you cna clearly see him putting his body on the line and "putting the fear of god" into people

    my two cents...


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    #39
    andrewh5
    Registered Users Posts: 588 ✭✭✭andrewh5


    ROG has been made captain for saturday against England. Also, Wilkinson has been dropped by England & replaced by Cipriani.


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    #40
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,059 ✭✭✭✭phog


    çrash_000 wrote: »
    I'd be opposed to O'Gara getting the captaincy long-term, the last thing we want is O'Gara guaranteed his place every match until he retires - that'll be a fast route to our lads being in ****e for a number 10 in years to come.

    Couldn't the same be said for any other position?


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    #41
    nerophis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 85 ✭✭nerophis


    Heaslip is a long term option for captain (probably the only one of the current young guns) but in the meantime there is really only ROG for the job. The closer the captain is to the action the more effective IMO. A captain at outside centre doesn't work even if they are the best player on the team. Think of some of the great captains of recent years- Wood, Dallaglio, Johnson, Galthie, Gregan (love him or loath them)- they were constantly at the refereees shoulder and we all know that referees prefer the company of forwards or half backs at a stretch


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    #42
    Crash
    Registered Users Posts: 11,195 ✭✭✭✭Crash


    Yes but we don't constantly complain of our lack of depth in other positions anywhere near as much.


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    #43
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Glad to see ROG finally get the captaincy, interesting given that POC is in the side. Anybody who watched the game on Saturday could see that ROG kept trying to rally the troups, shouting encouragement. Maybe as captain they'll pay more attention!!

    Long term, Heaslip or DOC for captain. ROG is 31 now so time isn't on his side. Am a strong believer that captain should come from the pack or be a half back, otherwise they're too far out of the action to control the game.


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    #44
    Stev_o
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Glad to see ROG finally get the captaincy, interesting given that POC is in the side. Anybody who watched the game on Saturday could see that ROG kept trying to rally the troups, shouting encouragement. Maybe as captain they'll pay more attention!!

    Long term, Heaslip or DOC for captain. ROG is 31 now so time isn't on his side. Am a strong believer that captain should come from the pack or be a half back, otherwise they're too far out of the action to control the game.

    Heaslip is too quiet to be the captain he even admitted to falling asleep just before matches because of him being nervous adding a captaincy to that is just waiting for trouble.


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    #45
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    O'Gara is hugely over-rated, when a game goes against him he disappears completely.

    The reason he plays better for Munster is that he is better protected with Munster. Paddy Wallace could look good behind Munster's first choice pack.


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    #46
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    well then surely the irish pack, with it's munster players, leinster player and ulster player-the best forwards in the country, could protect him just as well?


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    #47
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Not really, Munster has a strong club level pack but a poor International class one. In other words, it's rare to find a better pack at club level but when it comes to Int level, the other countries have a greater choice of players.


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    #48
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,059 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    O'Gara is hugely over-rated, when a game goes against him he disappears completely.The reason he plays better for Munster is that he is better protected with Munster. Paddy Wallace could look good behind Munster's first choice pack.

    That's horse sh*t* but here here goes, examples please.........


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    #49
    mc23
    Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭mc23


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    Not really, Munster has a strong club level pack but a poor International class one.

    Munsters pool in this years Heineken cup was a far superior standard than this years 6N.


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    #50
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    phog wrote: »
    That's horse sh*t* but here here goes, examples please.........

    You mean apart from the Wales game this year, the Wales game the year they won the Grand Slam, every New Zealand test, every French test, llanelli quarter final last year, the last World Cup, every game against Argentina? The sad thing is I could go on but what's the point.

    Sorry, the guy is horribly over-rated simply because we've no one else to play there.

    Look at his stats for this 6n's, he's the Irish player with the most missed tackles and most errors, but of course, he's super....

    Now I know his position means he will have the ball a lot, but still, he's making more errors than the new guys like Reddan, Kearney and Heaslip.

    As long as we live in the fantasy that O'Gara is "world-class" we'll win nothing.


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    #51
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,079 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    You mean apart from the Wales game this year, the Wales game the year they won the Grand Slam, every New Zealand test, every French test, llanelli quarter final last year, the last World Cup, every game against Argentina? The sad thing is I could go on but what's the point.

    Sorry, the guy is horribly over-rated simply because we've no one else to play there.

    Look at his stats for this 6n's, he's the Irish player with the most missed tackles and most errors, but of course, he's super....

    Now I know his position means he will have the ball a lot, but still, he's making more errors than the new guys like Reddan, Kearney and Heaslip.

    As long as we live in the fantasy that O'Gara is "world-class" we'll win nothing.

    While he is not it the top three in the world he is still a top class number 10. His touch and place kicing is second to none, and he is also a excellent passer of the ball.

    It is true that his weakness would be running with the ball in hand and his tackling, but even in these areas he is much improved in recent years.

    Also is it not a bit rich to pick out a few random games where the where the whole team played poorly and single out O'Gara. He has had way more good games for both Ireland and Munster during the years.


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    #52
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    Not really, the games I picked out were either games with exceptional pressure or against truly great teams. O'Gara, as you'd expect, is very good against weaker teams, can hold his own against good teams but is consistently outclassed in the highest level.

    Even in the HEC win, O'Gara's general play was very poor in the last 20 minutes, people forget this because Munster won and because (and fairs fair) he kicked a pressure penalty in the last 10 mins.

    I'm not saying he's not a good player, but he's not world class, imo.


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    #53
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,059 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    You mean apart from the Wales game this year, the Wales game the year they won the Grand Slam, every New Zealand test, every French test, llanelli quarter final last year, the last World Cup, every game against Argentina? The sad thing is I could go on but what's the point.

    Sorry, the guy is horribly over-rated simply because we've no one else to play there.

    Look at his stats for this 6n's, he's the Irish player with the most missed tackles and most errors, but of course, he's super....

    Now I know his position means he will have the ball a lot, but still, he's making more errors than the new guys like Reddan, Kearney and Heaslip.

    As long as we live in the fantasy that O'Gara is "world-class" we'll win nothing.
    marco_polo wrote: »
    While he is not it the top three in the world he is still a top class number 10. His touch and place kicing is second to none, and he is also a excellent passer of the ball.

    It is true that his weakness would be running with the ball in hand and his tackling, but even in these areas he is much improved in recent years.

    Also is it not a bit rich to pick out a few random games where the where the whole team played poorly and single out O'Gara. He has had way more good games for both Ireland and Munster during the years.

    Have to agree with marco_polo here in all the games you mention the players from 1 to 15 under performed so to blame O'Gara for Ireland's poor performance is crazy.

    Also - have you looked at the RBS6Ns stats page? Try here The stats for the 1st 3 games are available there but don't let the facts get in the way of putting down a good player.
    From these stats the Irish Players with the most Missed Tackles are:
    ROG, BOD, DOC, Hayes, Kearney, Leamy and Trimble all on 2.

    The Irish Players with the most Errors were:
    Kearney - 6
    ROG - 5
    BOD - 3
    Horan - 2

    Obviously these tables may change if the Welsh stats were available but your assertion that he is the weak link in the Irish team will hardly be proven.


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    #54
    Tris1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭Tris1


    I just dont understand people who think ROG is this great player. Lets look at his kicking, the only thing that comes to mind here is his constant giving away of the ball as he cant find touch.
    Irelands problems are simple, we have some really good young players who are left on the bench if ibdeed they get that far and he is constantly playing the same people. How can these young players get good internationally if they are not being played? Stringer for instance should have been side lined a couple of years ago, he lacked the aggression which the likes of Boss has.


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    #55
    Amazotheamazing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,048 ✭✭✭Amazotheamazing


    phog wrote: »
    Have to agree with marco_polo here in all the games you mention the players from 1 to 15 under performed so to blame O'Gara for Ireland's poor performance is crazy.

    Also - have you looked at the RBS6Ns stats page? Try here The stats for the 1st 3 games are available there but don't let the facts get in the way of putting down a good player.
    From these stats the Irish Players with the most Missed Tackles are:
    ROG, BOD, DOC, Hayes, Kearney, Leamy and Trimble all on 2.

    The Irish Players with the most Errors were:
    Kearney - 6
    ROG - 5
    BOD - 3
    Horan - 2

    Obviously these tables may change if the Welsh stats were available but your assertion that he is the weak link in the Irish team will hardly be proven.

    I'm working off the stats from the first 4 games, you do realise we've played four games?


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    #56
    NotWormBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 620 ✭✭✭NotWormBoy


    Irish rugby.ie wrote:
    6 Andrea Masi (Italy), Mike Blair (Scotland), Toby Flood (England)
    5 Carlo Del Fava (Italy), Gavin Henson (Wales), Ronan O'Gara (Ireland)
    4 Allan Jacobsen (Scotland), Andrew Trimble (Ireland), Gonzalo Canale (Italy), John Barclay (Scotland), Nikki Walker (Scotland), Santiago Dellape (Italy)
    3 Brian O'Driscoll (Ireland), Dan Parks (Scotland), Denis Leamy (Ireland), Donncha O'Callaghan (Ireland), James Haskell (England), Jamie Noon (England), John Hayes (Ireland), Jonny Wilkinson (England), Kaine Robertson (Italy), Martyn Williams (Wales), Mauro Bergamasco (Italy), Nathan Hines (Scotland), Paul Sackey (England), Rob Kearney (Ireland), Simon Picone (Italy), Simon Shaw (England), Simon Webster (Scotland)
    2 Andy Gomarsall (England), David Marty (France), Aurelien Rougerie (France), Damien Traille (France), Andrew Henderson (Scotland), Alberto Sgarbi (Italy)

    Missed tackles from irishrugby.ie ROG is on 5, Trimble 4, a rake of Irish on 3.
    Irish rugby.ie wrote:
    MOST ERRORS:

    9 Dan Parks (Scotland), Andrea Masi (Italy), Andrea Marcato (Italy)
    8 Cedric Heymans (France), Ronan O'Gara (Ireland), Stephen Jones (Wales)
    7 Chris Paterson (Scotland), Hugo Southwell (Scotland), Rob Kearney (Ireland)
    6 Iain Balshaw (England), Jonny Wilkinson (England), Lee Byrne (Wales)
    5 Aurelien Rougerie (France), David Skrela (France), David Bortolussi (Italy), Julien Bonnaire (France), Lesley Vainikolo (England), Mike Blair (Scotland), Nick De Luca (Scotland), Ryan Jones (Wales), Shane Williams (Wales), Simon Webster (Scotland)
    4 Ezio Galon (Italy), Dimitri Szarzewski (France), Brian O'Driscoll (Ireland), Andrew Henderson (Scotland), Andy Gomarsall (England), Francois Trinh-Duc (France), Gavin Henson (Wales), Lionel Nallet (France), Luke Narraway (England), Martin Castrogiovanni (Italy), Mirco Bergamasco (Italy), Pietro Travagli (Italy), Rory Lamont (Scotland)

    ROG on 8, Kearney on 7, BOD on 4.

    Not commenting on the stats, just sticking them up there.


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    #57
    Stev_o
    Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    Where is the o so many Murphy errors that the criticise brigade talked of? ;)


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    #58
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I've always been mildly curious as to what constitutes an error in these statistics. Similarly, though less ambiguous, I've seen some awfully odd "missed tackles" stats.


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    #59
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,059 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Amazotheamazing wrote: »
    I'm working off the stats from the first 4 games, you do realise we've played four games?

    Did you read all my post?


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    #60
    CathalMc
    Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭CathalMc


    The most interesting thing about those posted stats is the number of fly-halves leading the way, or at least in the top half of "errors". It seems pretty inconclusive to me if you want to debate about O'Gara. Comparing him to players in different positions seems illogical. Regardless, on "errors", he seems to be comparable with the best in Europe right now.

    His missed tackles statistics are poor, but not worthy of the vitriol he seems to be accumulating on this board. Mind you, he certainly isn't a killer tackling machine, that's for sure! I suspect, the "weak link" is a popularly recited meme, so the Irish 10 channel is targeted more frequently and this type of thing is self-propagating.

    Finally, and I'm on less sure ground here, I am not entirely sure that every time an out-half "misses" touch we need assume that he didn't mean it. If his team is performing poorly in the lineout, surely it's worth trying a few Garryowens? Testing the full-back to catch a high ball, in parts of the field where the return kick is difficult, such as close to touch. Or even just kicking behind a defense and keeping the ball in play to help break up a rush defense. It's obviously a gamble, but Irish penetrative play (oi!) seems somewhat stagnant anyway.


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    #61
    themont85
    Registered Users Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭themont85


    People pick and choose what they like about stats, the above poster is right he's comparable to others in his position. Look at Kearney-7 errors-I defy anyone to say he's played badly in this 6 nations. Yes stats are important but over analysing them like american football(where they are essential) is pointless.


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