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Lack of Irish airline network

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  • 06-01-2008 4:50pm
    #1
    Mint Sauce
    Registered Users Posts: 29,294 ✭✭✭✭


    haven't seen this discussed on boards, apolagies if done before, but i was wondering why there aren't more internal flights in ireland, now i know there are at least once to twice daily flights between dublin and all the regional airports, but what about flights between the regional airports

    first noticed this when was looking to travel from sligo to cork, wasn't living in sligo long at the time, knew to go by trian, had to go via dublin, and didn't fancy spending the whole day sitting on a bus, so looked at aer arann, only flights were to dublin, so looked at the route map, and the only other regional routes that did not involve dublin, was between cork and galway

    so i ask, how come there are not more regional flights, ok, so their may not be the demand for a daily flight between sligo and cork, or say for example dongal to waterford, or belfast to kerry, etc etc, but even if there were flights linking some of the more geographicaly spaces regions of the island, even if they were only 2 or 3 times a week, surly there are people who travel from one end of the country to the other, who dont drive, and dont want the hassel of changing trains in dublin, or having to change buses two are three times, would also surly help local econemys as well


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    #2
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    As if our carbon footprint isn't already too big, adding more regional flights in what is a small country would be madness IMO. We should be pressing for greater improvements in land based transport on such a small island.

    When the "Atlantic Corridor" is complete you'll be able to do Sligo-Cork in a respectable time on a bus.


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    #3
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    To my knowledge, they are not economically viable. Quite a lot of the existing internal flights from Dublin receive government subsidies as far as I know. If they are not viable, you'd have to question whether any other internal routes would be viable. One idea might be to do a hopping route, eg Waterford-Cork-Galway-Sligo-Donegal but if you were the one going from Waterford to Donegal, that might not be so attractive and I don't know if that's an efficient use of an aircraft.

    For the size country Ireland is, we would be better off doing something about more complete surface transport on environmental grounds. However, the tendency here is to spend as little money as possible and wind up with something not ideal. If you have a look around, you'll find a discussion on the western rail corridor which is illuminating to say the least.


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    #4
    Mint Sauce
    Registered Users Posts: 29,294 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    murphaph wrote: »
    As if our carbon footprint isn't already too big, adding more regional flights in what is a small country would be madness IMO. We should be pressing for greater improvements in land based transport on such a small island.

    When the "Atlantic Corridor" is complete you'll be able to do Sligo-Cork in a respectable time on a bus.

    and probably still have to change buses in galway and limerick, plus waiting on conections,

    i see what your saying about carbon footprint, and pressing for an imprvment in land based transport, which in all honestly, when the goverment has been discusing routes around the capital for years, and the tara route debate is still ongoing, fair enough was delayed for archeolghy reasons, will be years yet before the far ends of the country are conected by a road or rail network, at least the airports are already there


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    #5
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,892 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Until security requirements for internal flights get slashed to what they were in the US pre 9/11 its an absolute non runner. You can get the train to any of said cities/towns quicker from Dublin even if they were cut down... and as it stands you've got 4 hours of transfers to the airport/from the airport/security/checkin/etc to add to the flight time.

    Donegal is about the only one that makes sense as it serves West Donegal not the relatively decent served by road south county.


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    #6
    Mint Sauce
    Registered Users Posts: 29,294 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    MYOB wrote: »
    ...You can get the train to any of said cities/towns quicker from Dublin even if they were cut down....


    yes from dublin, but that doesn't help peole who live outside of dublin, who want to travel to another part of the country, so i accept, that an internal schuelded flight network is probably a none runner, i can see this thread going of topic quite quickly, so i wont dwell on this, going back to the second or third post, if not more internal flights, the goverment should look better a providing and promoting a landbased network betwenn the regions outide of dublin


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    #7
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,869 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Yes. It's called the WRC.

    Waterford and Limerick are already linked by choo-choo. [ and it doesn't get many riders by all accounts [


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    #8
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    And have you lobbied your local representatives for this?

    An ideal solution would be improved rail connections and a system that takes into consideration that not everyone wants to go to Dublin. The problem with that in Ireland is this:
    1. No one can agree on a plan
    2. when someone does come up with a route, a load of people disagree with it
    3. the planning process takes years
    4. the building process will take years after that
    5. any funding for a lot of infrastructure on the public transport plane outside Dublin draws the wrath of Dublin commuters struggling with what is an appalling network
    6. our planners go for the quickest and cheapest route as opposed to perhaps the most appropriate route

    There are a few people more expert in this area than I. However, it's very easy to say the "government should do something", the problem is by and large when they try to do something, we the people pull them to pieces for it, argue this, object to that. It takes YEARS to get things done in this country sometimes.

    I'd like to see improved internal non-dublin centric transfers in this country, either by bus or train. I'm not, however, holding my breath because if a decision was made in the morning to push a high speed rail link from Cork to Derry with a couple of branch lines to Galway and Sligo and Letterkenny, we wouldn't ever see it built. Ever. Why? Because there'd be some piece of bog in the way, some castle that fell down 600 years ago, someone who doesn't want the noise of the train within one mile.

    It'd be all far better if we got back to subsistance farming really. Then no one would need to go anywhere except to the local market and hiring fair.

    sorry...there are times I feel frustrated about how things are[n't] done in this country. Can we have a new planning process please?


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    #9
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    trellheim wrote: »
    Yes. It's called the WRC.

    Waterford and Limerick are already linked by choo-choo. [ and it doesn't get many riders by all accounts [

    What's the time table like on that? I know years ago, half the time the transfer from Limerick Junction used to be by bus and not by rail?

    Ultimately the problem I have is that we don't put a huge amount of thought into regional railways. I think we're bad at the idea of cross subsidisation as well.

    Anyway, OP, interesting question, thanks for asking. If i'm not mistaken what we do now have is Cork Belfast which doesn't really improve your situation but...I guess it's something.


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    #10
    Mint Sauce
    Registered Users Posts: 29,294 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    Calina wrote: »

    Anyway, OP, interesting question, thanks for asking. If i'm not mistaken what we do now have is Cork Belfast which doesn't really improve your situation but...I guess it's something.

    think i seen that one my self as well, but yeah, was not just thinking about my self, but the rest of the population as well,


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    #11
    Flukey
    Registered Users Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Flukey


    Internal flights are not really viable. A minor service is sufficient. A much improved rail system is where they should be looking. Some of the old lines should be opened, so you don't have to do the kind of thing, like go from Cork to Dublin in order to get to Sligo. There should be a line from Cork, through Limerick, Ennis, Galway, Sligo and on into Donegal and finishing in Derry. So not just the Western Corridor but beyond at both ends. It is not that anyone will necessarily be going from Cork to Derry, but having all those cities and towns linked would provide for a lot of transport along parts of the line. Add some branches for commuter lines and you will improve the whole western half of the country.

    We need to break from the radial structure of our rail system where nearly all lines connect to Dublin. Having said that, there should be a direct line from Dublin to Derry, which would help serve Meath, the north midlands and central Ulster.


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    #12
    KC61
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    trellheim wrote: »
    Yes. It's called the WRC.

    Waterford and Limerick are already linked by choo-choo. [ and it doesn't get many riders by all accounts [

    Numbers are increasing on the route (particularly out of/into connecting trains to/from Dublin at Limerick Junction), and when the track is fully relaid and the line resignalled, speeds will increase making it far more attractive to users. Already the line speed has risen from 40mph to 50mph, although there are several temporary speed restrictions en route.

    The Limerick Junction-Waterford line now has an unprecedented 4 return trains per day.

    However, until a Sunday service is introduced it will never reach its full potential.


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    #13
    Slice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭Slice


    The most glaring omission is a Cork-Belfast route. All the existing internal flights don't deserve the huge government subsidies they receive.


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    #14
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Aer Arann fly from Cork to Belfast.


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    #15
    Prof_V
    Closed Accounts Posts: 122 ✭✭Prof_V


    I think all the radial routes out of Dublin, barring Cork and Shannon, are (fairly heavily) subsidised. Cork-Belfast and Shannon-Belfast have been tried on and off over the years (and, as Calina mentioned, Cork-Belfast is on at the moment). There have never been any subsidised routes avoiding Dublin; I believe Waterford-Galway-Sligo went to tender at one stage, but nobody was interested in it.

    Regarding Calina's idea of a hopping route: Brendan O'Carroll (!) did want to do something like this a few years ago, but he seems to have lost interest fairly quickly.


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    #16
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,303 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Such a network isn't needed. While you will have people travelling Sligo-Limerick or Cork-Galway, having the aircraft land at every airport just doesn't make financial sense as the big expense is taking off. Trains or buses are mmuch more useful for such services.

    Once upon a time, in the USA, everyone flew from origin to destination. That meant that to make the flight break-even financially, the fares and loadings had to be high, which mean frequencies had to be low. The introduction of the hub system meant that instead of flying origin to destination, you stopped somewhere in between, becoming origin-hub-destination. Because everyone else weas also flying origin-hub-destination, frequencies could improve, people flew more and fares dropped as the planes were full, as opposed to half- or mostly-full. This is the model that Ryanair is working on (although they are specificly a low-fares point to point airline - they don't guarantee connections). In practical terms, Dublin is the only meaningful hub for internal flights.

    In the heirarchy of things, anything I can get in say Sligo, I can also get in Dublin or Galway, why would I go to Cork to get it?. So the only people travelling the full Sligo-Cork distance are people travelling for a niche reason.
    irish-stew wrote:
    i know there are at least once to twice daily flights between dublin and all the regional airports, but what about flights between the regional airports
    There are - they just go via Dublin.


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    #17
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,892 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Prof_V wrote: »
    Regarding Calina's idea of a hopping route: Brendan O'Carroll (!) did want to do something like this a few years ago, but he seems to have lost interest fairly quickly.

    I remember this surfacing during the long-distance train strike in, erm, 2001 ish?


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    #18
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,303 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Other posts moved here: http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055212811


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