Heaven/Hell/Purgatory

I can imagine a lot of uppitty dead folk wrecking the Holy-Ear-Hole about why their missus is in Hell smoldering when they are upstairs strumming a harp.

Surely, the concept of heaven being the reward would require God to forgive the sinner and return them to your world (insert universe/dimension/reality as appropriate)? Forcing you to be happy seems a little ...

... on the other hand it fits in nicely with the "do as I say or I'll smite you" attitude.

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

Cheers WickNight,
I guess we are all looking for answers, been asking this question for some time now without even a relatively plausible type answer, tis like chasing your tail

You haven't got an answer because there is no definitive answer. I am a Christian, God has promised us 'exquisite delight'. Therefore, i am not anxious of such questions, for my Faith in God tells me, that whatever happens, all will be great, and all judgements just. If you doubt this, then you must address your faith IMO.

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

hey all, just like to throw something at you that i cant help wondering about -
Say you die and have lived your live as best you can accoding to jesus' teachings and are then lucky enough to be desiginated a place in heaven.
Then one of you family members dies who has murdered or done some other extremely unchristian act and being totally unremorseful for what he/she has done.
How could you, being in heaven be happy knowing that this family member is condemned to Hell, surely this is for lack of a better word, "ironic" as heaven would not be heaven, ie paradise, to you knowing taht your family member is "down there" being tormented forever!
Any thoughts?

Hello, I'll have a go at answering this.

Those who go to Hell go there because they rejected God's grace. Life in Heaven is only possible if we die with sanctifying grace in our souls. Likewise we can't exist under-water without breating apparatus. A soul without grace is effectively dead and cannot have any love (charity) for God. And since we can only be united with God through love, we cannot be united with Him if our soul has no love of God.

We were created in order to be ultimately joined with God in Heaven.
When we get to Heaven God's laws will make perfect sense to us. We will clearly see how beautiful a soul filled with God's grace is and how heinous a crime it is to reject His grace. In Heaven, our wills will be in perfect harmony with God's will and so we would be entirely in agreement with God if one of our relatives went to Hell. Hell would be the only possible choice for a soul dead in sin.

St. Catherines treatise on Purgatory makes for very interesting reading and gives some idea of just how pure a soul must be to enter Heaven.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/CATPUR.TXT

God bless,
Noel.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

My family and loved ones have made a decision to deny Christ and God. They know the consequences, am I sad about it? Yes.

Is there anything I can do about it? No.

Wicknight isn't going to change, he despises God, he has decided that an eternity without God is what he wants.

He is getting exactly his hearts desire. He has been warned about that choice.

When I get to Heaven I will be thrilled to see the people that are there. I will rejoice with them and hang out for eternity with them and God. Play football to my hearts content. Swim, ski and play hockey on smooth black ice.

But how can I moan about the fact that friends are in Hell, when they in fact chose to go there?

Forgive me for saying so, but that is incredibly selfish. How can you possibly say that once you get to Heaven, you don't care about anyone else, no matter how close you are to them?

Great Question OP, I have asked that same question of religious people and family members I know... no answers forthcoming so far.

I was told as a child that to miss Mass on Easter Sunday was a mortal sin which couldn't be atoned for... I remember when I missed my first... I thought 'Well, that can't be attoned for and so now I am DEFINITELY going to hell'. People who commit mortal sins don't go to Purgatory, they go straight to hell.



Quote in relation to BC's friends / family ending up in hell.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

What I tried to say was that there was nothing I could do about it, and that friends are in Hell by choice.

I am saddened by that, yet fully aware that here and now there is only so much I can do and that when in Heaven there is nothing that I can do.

Clearly you could pray that God would provide some real and tangible evidence of his existence to your unbelieving friends. I don't believe your friends have 'chosen' Hell, most likely they don't believe in heaven or hell and so have simply chosen disbelief, they haven't actively chosen hell. If your friends had proof they'd be saved. Such an easy thing for God to do and yet he doesn't....

If only your God would demonstrate his existence equally to all, not simply to a chosen few 2,000 years ago in a backward, uneducated and myth filled country. Apparently when Jesus rose from the dead there were two angels who stood by the tomb, why didn't God let them remain there so that I today could go there and verify the story for myself? Why is the age of miracles gone?

Was doubting thomas considered a lesser man because of doubt?, No, it seems Jesus allowed him to have 'more' proof so he could be sure.. why doesn't Jesus / God extend us all the same courtesy? After all I am only acting on my rationality which is God given apparently and yet I am to be punished for it.

When in heaven you can do even more, you won't have to pray, you can ask God directly and, if heaven is perfect, he won't be so rude as to ignore you, then you'll have your answer.



Heaven presents many paradoxes, it is as illogical as square circles and married bathelors.


edited to add.
In fact, when in heaven you can lobby God to change his policy of secrecy and belief without proof, you can explain how the human mind works, how many humans refuse to believe in what we call 'sky fairies' and that if he really wants us to be saved he should re examine his policies. You can ask him to re-evaluate the crimes of the billions in hell, and ask him to display the forgiveness and understanding which his son said was a policy of his.
Unless of course the vast majority are already in heaven in which case you can lobby him to ensure that his representatives on Earth get it right, that they stop saying that mortal sins are everywhere, that they stop engaging in paedophilic behaviour and covering it up (because other humans can't trust people who engage in these activites and then what hope have they?), and that the scripture 'many are called but few are chosen' is updated...

JACK BE NIMBLE wrote: »

Noel/Kelly1, thanks for your go at giving an answer - i'd like to state that i am a christian, but just like many others i'm trying to make clear as best as is humanly possible in my mind about the catholic belief/interpretation of Gods word. Do you seriously belief this to be true,"In Heaven, our wills will be in perfect harmony with God's will and so we would be entirely in agreement with God if one of our relatives went to Hell. Hell would be the only possible choice for a soul dead in sin." think about it - i assume you are a christian/decent person, you try to treat and understand people as best you can and hope its the same vice-versa, how can you just decide all of a sudden to basically say F**k this family member or friend he got what he deserves, ie going to hell. Its contradtictory to the max and the very essence of unchristian/inhumane.

I understand where you're coming from but I'm trying to see it from God's point of view - a bit impossible I know!

I often pray for the conversion of sinners that they may be spared from Hell. Any charitable person would do this.

The problem is that while on earth, we are afflicted with original sin which dims our moral intelligence and makes us prone to sin. We are far too comfortable with and attached to sin. Even the smallest sin is abhorrent to God because He is so pure and Holy. we just don't see how ugly sin is and how insulting it is to God. When we get to Heaven we will see God in all His glory and realize how profoundly good, just, merciful and holy He is.

When we baptized we are made perfectly pure in the sight of God because all sin is erased and no debt of sin remains to be paid. So if we died straight after baptism we would go straight to Heaven. According to one theologian I read, what happens in baptism (and the sacrament of penance for those in mortal sin) is far greater than the act of creation of the entire universe. The world is only material but a soul in the state of grace is like God because of the grace which God freely gives it and because of this grace, union with God becomes possible. This is not because of an merit on our part, it is only given to us because of God's goodness and mercy. When we sin, we reject this incredibly precious gift from God and insult His goodness, generosity and holiness. If our sin is mortal, our soul becomes effectively dead through our own choice. Mortal sin by definition must involve grave sin and be deliberation to commit the sin. So by definition, our rejection of God must therefore be deliberate. God doesn't violate our free will and respects our choice to reject Him.

When we die our will becomes fixed either in loving God and repenting of our sins or despising God and being too proud to seek forgiveness. There's no second chance to change your mind after you die.

Those of us who make it to Heaven will share intimately in the life of God being totally united with Him. We will perfectly understand the wisdom of sending people to Hell because God is a just and perfect judge. Here on earth, we just don't see the how abominable sin is. We judge sin by our own standards which are very low compared with God's.

So I don't know really whether we will feel sadness for those in Hell but I suspect we won't because if there were something wrong with sending people to Hell, God wouldn't do it in the first place. There is absolutely no compatibility between God and a soul (after death) in a state of mortal sin.

I think your question basically stems from a limited human understanding of sin which is very, very different from God's understanding.

Is this any clearer at all? It's a bit repetitive I know.

God bless,
Noel.

Agent J wrote: »

I didnt realise that people could second guess the Christian God and could tell what memembers of their own family are on the way to Hell.

That almost sounds prideful doesnt it?

Well agentj, what an absolutely stupid statement.

If my uncle says, 'there is no god, and when I die it is just to dirt.', and no amount of talking and showing him evidence gets anywhere, the guess what?

Can you guess?

just in case you missed it, he is going to Hell. Because he has rejected the God of the universe and done so willingly.

God has shown us who He is and has come down from Heaven and offered Himself as the propitiation for our sins. He has risen from the dead.

Ohhh, but of course, you don't think that theres enough evidence for this so you'll mock God, and His people and then whine that you can't go to Heaven and how unfair God is?


:rolleyes:

i have no fears of going to hell for not believing in the christian god.
if it turns out when i die and the christians were right,im sure by logic god wont mind,i base this theory on the grounds that a god would be so ascended and clearminded that the fact i led a good life, and followed a different spiritual path that didnt hurt anyone ,
im sure he'd say come on into heaven.

then again if you want to believe your god would be so insecure that people not believing in him warrants eternal punishment,thats your choice,im friends with many level christians who think otherwise.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Ohhh, but of course, you don't think that theres enough evidence for this so you'll mock God, and His people and then whine that you can't go to Heaven and how unfair God is?

I don't think anyone is "whining" about not going to Heaven, just trying to understand the logic behind the selection process.

Wicknight wrote: »

"Why exactly do Christians expect me to be blamed for what Adam did, one man "born" 6,000 years before I was.

6,ooo years before you were born eh?
Glad to see you coming round to the Christian way of thinking...