Arm Bars and Waiter Carries

silverharp

A bit of a random topic, but I kind of fell into these exercises as a warm up, enjoyed the novelty of them and progressing the weight, normally book-end them with hangs and suitcase carries. I dont think I have seen anybody ever do them in the gym though I remember some posters taking about them here in the past. Ive seen the arm bar suggested as part of a rehab programme so I'd guess I'd put them in the basket of shoulder health/injury prevention which is a good enough reason for me to do them.

For all the content on Youtube etc not seen much on these exercises apart of shorts just demonstrating them.

Black Sheep

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058344065/arm-bars-and-waiter-carries

I feel like the overhead waiter walk, with a dumbbell or kettlebell, was more commonly seen about 15 years ago. I remember it was popular, particularly as a warm-up, both in CrossFit and Dan John's following. I haven't seen anyone doing them lately but I don't think they are a 'bad' exercise or anything.

I guess they challenge the shoulder stabilisers, somewhat like a turkish get-up does, and they probably encourage someone to organise their shoulder in a decent position (In that regard I would think they fill the same niche in a warm-up as wall slides or light behind-the-neck pressing), and there's a bit of fun to them.

Although people say they challenge core stability, I don't know to what extent that's really the case, because the weight has to be relatively light compared to what you could do for a one-sided heavy DB farmer's walk, or a heavy DB side bend. Those are much more effective options if core stability was the goal.

The arm bar I have never tried, and don't think I have ever seen anyone use it in a gym, or teach it.

If we're talking niche shoulder-related kettlebell stuff, another one is bottoms-up kettlebell pressing. Very challenging on the shoulder stabilisers, and sometimes recommended for people who can't press heavy due to shoulder issues. It certainly cuts down the weight you can use on an overhead press, but it's probably the equivalent of those exercises done on a balance board or bosu ball. Just because it requires balance and skill doesn't always mean it's productive.

Even more niche, Jeff Martone's kettlebell juggling. Now that is pretty cool and fun, releasing at the top of the swing and letting the kettlebell rotate, and catching it for the bottom portion of the swing. I had to stop because my wife didn't like me creating divots in the garden when I missed a catch.

Mellor

I'm a big fan of loaded carries generally. Was possibly me talking about them in the past. I've recently reintroduce them, do them as a warm up to BJJ. Using kettlebells, I follow the below progression -

• Single overhead hold (30sec)
• Single Waiter carry (20m)
• Double overhead hold (30sec)
• Double Waiter carry (20m)

When I complete all 4 comfortably, I restart with the next KB up. At some point, I assume ability to get the KB overhead will become part of the challenge.

What are arm bars? Never heard of them, or at least the kind I train are likely very different

silverharp

this is the arm bar

https://youtu.be/IAByZREjXp8?si=uvtj8BuNPjIuDzyg

what I am doing with these are 60m which I now now is "bottoms-up kettlebell pressing" arm bent, lighter weight , 60m each of waiter carries heavier and heaviest weight I can, then the arms bars 2x1min on each side of the heaviest weight I can handle.

silverharp

not seen that before- has a nice flow about it . During covid I brought a 12KG gym ball to a local football field and did some obvious throws up and down the field

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSjH0uokfcs

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121952751#Comment_121952751

Seems to be a sort stability/mobility exercise. Would likely work well to build up the strength/stability for increasingly heavy TGUs. Like the way I do a hold at a given weight before adding the walk/carry.

Black Sheep

For BJJ the half Turkish get up is about as sport specific as you can get, it has huge applications for learning to come up from the bottom for many movements. The second half of the get up is mostly not required, it's the first half where almost all the challenge is.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121953588#Comment_121953588

I originally added them exactly for the sports specific application. I agree the first half is the challenging part. But I still do the full move. The second half is good for dynamic stability and is similar to a technical get up.

Cill94

https://youtube.com/shorts/OsE4-Dzb5mk?si=4PcZD_wn6mS-bThn

Personally agree with Mike.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121958771#Comment_121958771

I’m pretty sure Mike does bjj. But his statement about bjj was wrong. You absolutely do sit up and stand up against resistance, all the time. pretty basic stuff to get wrong imo.

The other “criticism” that it’s limiting factor is shoulder stability?? Targeting shoulder stability dynamically was literally a benefit mentioned above. But not the only one, the sit up portion is a heavy core single (as opposed high reps typically done)

“Having stronger hips isn’t going to increasing your TGU”. Probably not. Stronger hips are not going to increase your bench or pull up in any meaningful way either. Don’t think that says much.

Black Sheep

Yeah, I think there is a legitimate critique to be made of TGUs... A while ago people were getting crazy with them and it was like they were curing cancer... But the bjj related comments made in that video arent really right.

You do frame and technical stand up against resistance in bjj- actually it's quite common. And you come up from your back against resistance also, even if only a little, to make space to hip escape or frame or whatever.

I also kind of question the idea about "unless you're 90" you can stand to base (so why practice it.. is that the suggestion?). Yeah, maybe most people can sort of do it, but can you do it fluidly and with some stability, or is it a hot mess? Although I guess I do think the best way to practice the technical stand-up is unloaded, the movement itself, not doing TGUs.

I think the TGU movement pattern applies to a few things in BJJ but one of the most obvious ones is developing the ability to really surge up when doing a hip bump from bottom of closed guard, or coming up to secure a kimura. The way you organise yourself and the line you come up on is almost the same.

Anyway, all that being said I don't practice them at the moment and I would probably have people doing more conventional stuff as a priority.

Cill94

I agree that it's incorrect for him to say that you don't stand up against resistance in BJJ.

That said, TGUs for me fall into a category of exercises I'm not a big fan of, which people tend to call 'sport specific'. They tend to be exercises that look like the sport, but actually are training a different skill, while also being too unstable to load enough for any significant strength development (including stability - I think you'd get a lot more out of an overhead press).

For me, all effective strength training is general by nature. It's on the practice field (or mat in this case) where you practice integrating it into your sport skills, and it then can have a specific effect.

Black Sheep

Well, you'd know better than me and on reflection I generally agree sport specific is usually not that useful if its about mimicking movement patterns. Especially when general trainees just need to get moderately strong, or just consistently do something in the gym.

I remember a blue belt telling me he was doing really niche power training for bjj... But he couldn't even bench bodyweight!

To me - non professional take here - a sport orientated program should probably still be very general in nature, but theres certain things I would want to see for bjj... Knee strengthening for preventative purposes being an obvious one. Grip if it's not overdone.

I think programming for people with big sports commitments is as much about finding the right balance in terms of time and recovery required.

TGUs probably wouldn't make the cut actually so maybe I'm contradicting what I said earlier about them.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963572#Comment_121963572

I don’t disagree with most of that. But I don’t think anyone (well Pavel aside) is suggesting TGUs are a replacement for the base strength training (in the case Press).

Not sure about OHP being better for stability part though. Bilateral lifts are inherently more stable, unilateral moves force you to work harder to stabilise. For that reason alone I’d put DB/KB presses above OHP. TGU goes further imo as the stability is in a changing plane.

I agree with that “sports specific” comment when the movement is sport under load that doesn’t exist. Free-throws with a bowling ball is silly. But I don’t think that applies to TGU, as the load exists at similar intensity.

Sure you can’t load it to 150kg - but why would you? Isn’t that just tiring it into a bowling ball free throw?

If no data on this, but I’d guess the limit of a TGU is not significantly different to a 1-arm press.

Cill94

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121964387#Comment_121964387

The time and recovery point is the key part that I find doesn't get enough acknowledgement.

You can always make an argument for why 'x' exercise wouldn't hurt to include.

But training time and energy is a finite resource (particularly for athletes) so it really should be a matter of deciding what's going to yield more bang for buck. At a certain point, you do have to make a best guess at what's likely a better use of time, particularly for the majority of athletes being closer to that blue belt you mentioned.

A TGU does some cool things. I don't think it does as much as a bench or an OHP, so I'm probably going to always pick that over it for someone who's training time is at a premium. When you factor in also having to train all the other muscles, I don't see how someone could warrant spending much time on a TGU. Squat, push, pull, hinge, by itself is going to an hour.

Mellor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121963479#Comment_121963479

There are valid criticisms to be made of TGU. Certain KB fanatics will present KB Swings and TGUs as the only lifting you need for a Soviet Special Ops commando build. Hyperbolic, but the same could be said of many many system and idea in fitness. You have to tune out the over the top claims.

Mike's a brown belt so no idea how he thought that. My guess is that the extremely athletic, elite powerlifter/bodybuilder has not got a rounded game. And got to brown belt smashing people from top position. Being insanely strong and not having gives you lots of wiggle room in terms of skill.

And he is definitely wrong with the everyone can do it mentality. Everyone has the capability to learn it. But most people who attempt it, do it pretty badly. Ditto hip escapes and the like. I agree you practise it by doing the movement, unloaded.
The TGU benefit is coming up against resistance in similar movements - sit up sweep, stand up sweeps, wrestle ups, etc.

TGU is not part of my main strength routine. I'll hit presses or whatever directly for that. But I'll grab a kettle bell pre training or pre cardio on other days. When I was training strength twice as often, I was stronger, but I couldn't move as well in end rom.