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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

beveragelady

I called An Post today to try to sort out a problem with deliveries. The customer service chap was very helpful and I think it all got sorted.
The thing is, I tried to give him my Eircode because I live at a vague rural address but he said that they're not using them because the system isn't set up.
Amazed!
It's bad enough that they're no good to users of satnavs or google maps, but this is just astonishing. Can anybody explain how this could have been launched to such fanfare when it's all but meaningless?

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PeterHughes

They finally got the autoaddress app on iOS

Great use of Eircodes, used the get directions and displayed route options on Apple maps, perfect for navigating. How long before joe public starts realising that Eircodes can do this sort of thing, especially this part of Wicklow where everyone has the same address and ever second family is called Byrne!

https://app.autoaddress.ie/

Still can't find a desktop version, though.

And found this about the delivery codes, explains it better than the app - https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/03/01/delivery-zones---small-area-labelling-principles

MBSnr

Heard one instance of the Gardaí asking for the rural property owners eircode after being called out for a (false) panic alarm. The owner didn't know it offhand so they didn't record it. Guess perhaps they are starting to use it for this sort of thing.

larchill

Autoaddress came up on my Android tablet the other day via my Facebook account! Have it installed now

Niemoj

Every bit of post I'm getting from An Post seem to all have a stamp on it saying "Remember to use your EIRCODE"

I do use it but I didn't when applying to SUSI as it changed the county to Laois when I added it even though I live in Carlow!

[Deleted User]

Niemoj wrote: »

I do use it but I didn't when applying to SUSI as it changed the county to Laois when I added it even though I live in Carlow!

The eircode is based on the post town, it does not change your address, I live in Co. Roscommon, but the post town is Athlone in Westmeath.

So I use my Roscommon address with the eircode, no problems.
Using the eircode ensures the mail goes to the correct post town for sorting, before eircodes the mail sometimes went wesht before returning to Athlone to be sorted.

Niemoj

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The eircode is based on the post town, it does not change your address, I live in Co. Roscommon, but the post town is Athlone in Westmeath.

So I use my Roscommon address with the eircode, no problems.
Using the eircode ensures the mail goes to the correct post town for sorting, before eircodes the mail sometimes went wesht before returning to Athlone to be sorted.

Carlow handles the post for a lot of what is technically a different county but I write my address as Carlow, if i go to the eircode site it ends in Carlow, it was only on the SUSI site that it suddenly said Laois so I just entered my address manually instead.

BailMeOut

progress (I think!)

Other than from An Post I have NEVER had a package delivered to my house without the courier having to call for turn by turn directions first. I purposely avoid ordering anything that does not deliver using normal post as it can take 20-30 mins of me on a phone with a driver directing them to my house. I use my eircode on everything and under delivery instructions always type - "please do not call me - the eircode will direct you right to my front door".

So this morning Fastway arrived out of the blue at my door with an Amazon package and no phone call. I am deadly serious when I say that this have never happened before and am hoping it was the eircode.

ukoda

BailMeOut wrote: »

progress (I think!)

Other than from An Post I have NEVER had a package delivered to my house without the courier having to call for turn by turn directions first. I purposely avoid ordering anything that does not deliver using normal post as it can take 20-30 mins of me on a phone with a driver directing them to my house. I use my eircode on everything and under delivery instructions always type - "please do not call me - the eircode will direct you right to my front door".

So this morning Fastway arrived out of the blue at my door with an Amazon package and no phone call. I am deadly serious when I say that this have never happened before and am hoping it was the eircode.

They are one of the couriers who said they'd use it. Looks like they have done it now

https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/691576390970376192

MBSnr

BailMeOut wrote: »

So this morning Fastway arrived out of the blue at my door with an Amazon package and no phone call. I am deadly serious when I say that this have never happened before and am hoping it was the eircode.

Maybe... Maybe not! We tend to get the same Fastway driver deliver around our area... He phoned once and hasn't had to since as he knows the name and house.

gizmo555

Autoaddress, a member of the Capita Consortium chosen by the Department of Communications to design, develop and introduce Eircode, has recently met with companies in the transport industry to discuss the development of a Small Area Code (SAC) to facilitate deliveries.

Eircode’s controversial design, which sees random codes assigned to individual houses, was criticised by courier companies and digital rights advocates prior to its introduction last year.

The Freight Transport Association of Ireland (FTAI) said Eircode adds time and cost to courier companies’ deliveries instead of providing the savings promised.

Companies such as FedEx, UPS and DHL had previously told the Oireachtas Committee on Communications that they would not use Eircode because of its design.

The FTAI, which represents many of these companies, told the committee that Eircode was ‘useless’ to its members. It urged the adoption of a structured postcode that would establish areas whose codes run sequentially, such as the postcode being used in the UK.

However despite this, the Department of Communications went ahead with the randomised design. Last year the Comptroller and Auditor General said the cost of implementing Eircode came in at €38m and that “it is not clear that benefits to the value projected will be achieved as a result of the implementation of Eircode”.

Autoaddress has since met with companies to discuss the new SAC, which bears similarities to the type of postcode used in the UK, and FTAI general manager Neil McDonnell said his members were “very impressed” with the proposal.

“Indeed one of the attendees at the briefing was consulted as an operator by the National Postcodes Project Board (NPPB) in 2006, and the SAC proposal was in line with what operators thought they were going to get 10 years ago.

“Despite the fact that operators were impressed by SACs, they were frustrated that the company which rubbished the industry requirement for a structured/hierarchical code for over a year was now proposing a structured/hierarchical code,” Mr McDonnell said.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eircode-alternative-is-not-on-offer-to-courier-industry-401009.html

ukoda

So basically they threw their toys out of the pram and refused to engage and find out about the code. Now that they have, it's exactly what they want. So they wasted nearly a year in ignorance

gizmo555

ukoda wrote: »

So basically they threw their toys out of the pram and refused to engage and find out about the code. Now that they have, it's exactly what they want. So they wasted nearly a year in ignorance

No, you have completely missed the point. Why don't you read the quote from the FTAI represntative again?

"Despite the fact that operators were impressed by SACs, they were frustrated that the company which rubbished the industry requirement for a structured/hierarchical code for over a year was now proposing a structured/hierarchical code."

ukoda

gizmo555 wrote: »

No, you have completely missed the point. Why don't you read the quote from the FTAI represntative again?

"Despite the fact that operators were impressed by SACs, they were frustrated that the company which rubbished the industry requirement for a structured/hierarchical code for over a year was now proposing a structured/hierarchical code."

You're missing the point. The code HASNT changed. This was all available to them at launch. SAC's were a feature of eircode from day 1. But you can believe the spin FTAI are putting on it to make themselves feel better if you want.

gizmo555

ukoda wrote: »

You're missing the point. The code HASNT changed. This was all available to them at launch.

Ok. Whatever. But if it was "available to them at launch", why is Autoaddress meeting with them now to discuss the development of something which is already available?

"Autoaddress, a member of the Capita Consortium chosen by the Department of Communications to design, develop and introduce Eircode, has recently met with companies in the transport industry to discuss the development of a Small Area Code (SAC) to facilitate deliveries."

ukoda

gizmo555 wrote: »

Ok. Whatever. But if it was "available to them at launch", why is Autoaddress meeting with them now to discuss the development of something which is already available?

"Autoaddress, a member of the Capita Consortium chosen by the Department of Communications to design, develop and introduce Eircode, has recently met with companies in the transport industry to discuss the development of a Small Area Code (SAC) to facilitate deliveries."

Because FTAI told them to F off for a long time. As per the article you quoted their stance was "it's useless"

plodder

Anyone know exactly what they are proposing? One possibility would mean defining a new database indexed by Eircode that maps to SACs and geo-coordinates. Before, I suggested that Eircode should do this. Offer a free of charge database with only the above info. As I said at the time, this has many uses way beyond transportation.

If this is being done by a third party, then they may need to define their own SAC (which involves work, and all the maintenance headaches which that involves going forward). So, would they then have to charge for it? That wipes out all the benefit that free use would offer.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Anyone know exactly what they are proposing? One possibility would mean defining a new database indexed by Eircode that maps to SACs and geo-coordinates. Before, I suggested that Eircode should do this. Offer a free of charge database with only the above info. As I said at the time, this has many uses way beyond transportation.

If this is being done by a third party, then they may need to define their own SAC (which involves work, and all the maintenance headaches which that involves going forward). So, would they then have to charge for it? That wipes out all the benefit that free use would offer.

I would imagine they are doing exactly what the Autoaddress app does. But being charged for it in some way.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

I would imagine they are doing exactly what the Autoaddress app does. But being charged for it in some way.

It's probably this
https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/01/25/big-benefit-of-small-areas

We would love to get feedback from interested parties about the suitability of the Small Area labelling approach outlined above. We will then release all data and algorithms as Open Data/Open Source. Our upcoming free mobile app will incorporate Small Area delivery grouping functionality based on the above.

Seems like a reasonable first step, but I doubt they'd be able to unilaterally release a full list of Eircodes with the data they create themselves. Maybe Eircode could be prodded into doing that.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

It's probably this
https://www.autoaddress.ie/blog/autoaddressblog/2016/01/25/big-benefit-of-small-areas

Seems like a reasonable first step, but I doubt they'd be able to unilaterally release a full list of Eircodes with the data they create themselves. Maybe Eircode could be prodded into doing that.

The Autoaddress app has the SAC's built into it already. You can see them in it. I would imagine that it took Autoaddress actually building the app and showing the FTAI members for the penny to drop that it's useful.

It appears the sole purpose of the Autoaddress app was to showcase this, seems to have worked for them.

ukoda

I made the point months ago that FTAI were softening their stance on eircode being "useless" I knew they'd try to find a way to roll back on that statement and still save face. So now they come out with "SAC's are a new code only now being propose by Autoaddress" this is absolute nonsense. SAC's have been part of eircode design from day 1 and Autoaddress have been shouting that from the roof top. FTAI should be ashamed of themselves for letting their ignorance and pride waste a year that could have seen widespread eircode adoption across the industry.

Let's be clear here. There is no new code. There is no redesign. There is no change to eircode from what it has always been. But suddenly the FTAI are "very impressed" with it! What a load of nonsense from them.

[Deleted User]

Quick question, how do you derive the SAC from the eircode?

ukoda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Quick question, how do you derive the SAC from the eircode?

its in the ECAD I believe, so with eircode you get the geo location and the SAC it's in

sondagefaux

Autoaddress‏
@autoaddress
@Eircode ECAD product includes Small Area IDs, can be used to group deliveries @newsfromftai unlike @loc8code

RETWEET1
3:39 a.m. - 14 Apr 2015

sondagefaux

Autoaddress‏
@autoaddress
@Eircode ECAD product includes Small Area IDs, can be used to group deliveries @newsfromftai unlike @loc8code

3:39 a.m. - 14 Apr 2015

ukoda

sondagefaux wrote: »

Autoaddress‏
@autoaddress
@Eircode ECAD product includes Small Area IDs, can be used to group deliveries @newsfromftai unlike @loc8code

3:39 a.m. - 14 Apr 2015

So they were plugging SAC use with eircode over a year ago and looks like they were ignored. Now all of a sudden they are "very impressed" what a joke.

sondagefaux

Yes. Autoaddress explained directly to the FTAI that this functionality (IDs for Small Areas for grouping deliveries etc) was built into the ECAD at least as early as April 2015.

sondagefaux

Yes. Autoaddress explained directly to the FTAI that this functionality (Small Areas IDs for grouping deliveries etc) was built into the ECAD at least as early as April 2015.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

its in the ECAD I believe, so with eircode you get the geo location and the SAC it's in

I see @loc8code is tweeting about it. I think he is right. The SACs in ECAD are those from the CSO. They are 9 digits and possibly unstructured (not 100% sure about that though). These new codes are alphanumeric and are hierarchical. So, it appears they are not the same.

While it's not a redesign in the sense that end users (householders) won't see or use these codes, it is an acknowledgment that Eircode was deficient in this respect. As I've said, if this dataset can be published for free it will definitely mitigate some of the problems.

Joe Leogue writing about it in the Examiner today:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/eircode-alternative-is-not-on-offer-to-courier-industry-401009.html

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

While it's not a redesign in the sense that end users won't see or use these codes, it is an acknowledgment that Eircode was deficient in this respect. As I've said, if this dataset can be published for free it will definitely mitigate some of the problems.

That's not the way Autoaddress are looking at it. They say that SAC's can be labelled anyway you want to for any purpose and used with eircode, they have said they put their own label on it just as a demo. So there's no redesign, just an example of the design in action

https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/734796425326891008

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

That's not the way Autoaddress are looking at it. They say that SAC's can be labelled anyway you want to for any purpose and used with eircode, they have said they put their own label on it just as a demo

https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/734796425326891008

'in the absence of others' - that doesn't make sense really. SACs were already existing in the ECAD. They could have just used those, but as the designers realised a different hierarchical code was better. I don't know why people are getting their knickers in a twist over it. What matters most is that Eircodes themselves stay the same, which they do.

As for being a demo, are they not built into the app?