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Inheritance Nightmares

Consuelano

I read an article in the Journal containing stories from people whose families were torn apart due to wills and inheritances and I found it fascinating.

[Can't post link]

I'm lucky in that both my parents are still alive and well, and AFAIK everything is to be divided equally between myself and my sibling, so there shouldn't really be a problem. Yet, the amount of stories I heard from friends and colleagues down through the years of huge falling-outs is staggering and in some ways frightening. Is it a uniquely Irish thing, or is it the greedy part of human nature coming out?

I think most people have a story or two that they've experienced, witnessed or heard. So people of AH, where there's a will, is there a way?

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[Deleted User]

I think it's shocking that people assume they are getting everything their parents leave behind.
In fact, a lot of people don't just assume, they think they are entitled to it!!!
It's your parents money, no one else is entitled to it.

I hope my mam spends every single penny on herself before she dies & doesn't leave anything.
I'll gladly pay for her funeral.
It's her money/ Assets, she earned them, she should enjoy them.

Chain Smoker

jim_jimmy wrote: »

know what you mean , farmers ( in many cases ) are an incredibly selfish bunch , not only are they completely and utterly focused on the farm , they force their kids ( usually sons ) to devote a large amount of time to the farm , a very sizeable number of farmers sons were forced to become farmers themselves

It's not selfishness really, more a circle of institutionalisation. They aren't exposed to anything else until they get to a point that it's impossible to even consider anything else, they're fully committed to that mindset by the time they've their own kids.

It can be an okay lifestyle if you've got everything in order and enough resources at your disposal, but even still it can very abruptly become relentlessly stressful through no fault of your own. I can't imagine anyone choosing to go into it.

messy tessy wrote: »

I think if you have grown up on a farm you can't be under any illusions of the time and sheer effort running a farm takes.

I know, but once the will comes around and they get nothing, they'll start remembering the summers slaving away in a field while their friends went to Disney World. In most cases, I think the people who got out are happy, but if they're not that happy with their lives they've got themselves plenty of food for resentment right there.

Annasopra

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Are you sure about that? I'd be interested to know where you found that out! Honestly.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/redress_scheme_for_cohabiting_couples.html

Spanish Eyes

tomwaterford wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/livein-partners-have-rights-new-court-ruling-says-26304026.html

Common law marraige

I think that had more to do with non marital children than anything else. Not having a go, but realistically, if co habitants could get the same benefits as a married person, in all honesty, why would anyone marry?

tomwaterford

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I think that had more to do with non marital children than anything else. Not having a go, but realistically, if co habitants could get the same benefits as a married person, in all honesty, why would anyone marry?

This is a question what baffles me tbh....even the time of the ssm thing,why?

But I guess if it's what people want let them away their doing no harm

Del2005

Consuelano wrote: »

I read an article in the Journal containing stories from people whose families were torn apart due to wills and inheritances and I found it fascinating.

[Can't post link]

I'm lucky in that both my parents are still alive and well, and AFAIK everything is to be divided equally between myself and my sibling, so there shouldn't really be a problem. Yet, the amount of stories I heard from friends and colleagues down through the years of huge falling-outs is staggering and in some ways frightening. Is it a uniquely Irish thing, or is it the greedy part of human nature coming out?

I think most people have a story or two that they've experienced, witnessed or heard. So people of AH, where there's a will, is there a way?

It's not uniquely Irish. Families falling out over inheritance happens in every country in the world.

Spanish Eyes

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/problems_in_marriages_and_other_relationships/redress_scheme_for_cohabiting_couples.html

Thank you. That is something that went above my radar. But there are some strict restrictions.

Still.... it only refers to a "financially dependent" co habitant.

Divorce does not.

A minefield all the same.

josip

bubblypop wrote: »

I think it's shocking that people assume they are getting everything their parents leave behind.
In fact, a lot of people don't just assume, they think they are entitled to it!!!
It's your parents money, no one else is entitled to it.

I hope my mam spends every single penny on herself before she dies & doesn't leave anything.
I'll gladly pay for her funeral.
It's her money/ Assets, she earned them, she should enjoy them.

Valid point, but in the case of farms, very often farmers use their sons and daughters as a cheap form of labour to keep it running.
It's only reasonable to expect something in return for doing all that.

foxy farmer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

A lot of farms have been passed on to the under 35s to benefit from the Stamp Duty and Gift tax things, along with a pension for the Dad.

I know there are rules and regs, but many have done it. And those who haven't are mad IMO.

The fighting that can go on between father and son in these cases can be brutal. Old fella says son is doing something wrong and all hell breaks loose. I see it on a regular basis with one crowd. Father pushing 70 son around 40 having a full blown fuking match over something trivial. Hanging a gate or planning a building job. 9 times out of 10 father is right but son can't stand his idea being shot down. Embarrassing to see it tbh.

12Phase

Definitely not a uniquely Irish thing. There are plenty of novels, plays, films etc that feature people falling out over wills.

tomwaterford

foxy farmer wrote: »

The fighting that can go on between father and son in these cases can be brutal. Old fella says son is doing something wrong and all hell breaks loose. I see it on a regular basis with one crowd. Father pushing 70 son around 40 having a full blown fuking match over something trivial. Hanging a gate or planning a building job. 9 times out of 10 father is right but son can't stand his idea being shot down. Embarrassing to see it tbh.

In fairness the fathers 70 years old he should be long retired
Let the son make mistakes....what good is the farm to him at 40

The grandfather and father here both retired when the next in line was old enough to take over....

as you look around the country ould lads in their 80s hanging on for dear life with sons into their 50s who are gone too old to really drive it on/work the long hard hours to build it up/improve it the way they want to

Spanish Eyes

foxy farmer wrote: »

The fighting that can go on between father and son in these cases can be brutal. Old fella says son is doing something wrong and all hell breaks loose. I see it on a regular basis with one crowd. Father pushing 70 son around 40 having a full blown fuking match over something trivial. Hanging a gate or planning a building job. 9 times out of 10 father is right but son can't stand his idea being shot down. Embarrassing to see it tbh.

I have seen it myself from the outside, and it is not pretty.

Unfortunately it makes family members take sides,

A total clusterf IMO.

But still, an elderly farmer cannot run things forever. But they think they can and still do forever and a day.

Difficult for the younger farmer who takes over for sure. They are still under the thumb. It is difficult to say the least.

[Deleted User]

josip wrote: »

Valid point, but in the case of farms, very often farmers use their sons and daughters as a cheap form of labour to keep it running.
It's only reasonable to expect something in return for doing all that.

Yea, but its up to the sons or daughters to decide if they want to work the farm ( obviously I'm talking about when they are grown up, not dependants)
So, if they are working for the parents, the wages/ Compensation should be decided well before a parent dies.
I understand people wanting to keep the family farm in the family, but as regards just inheritance, no one should feel entitled to their parents assets, IMO.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Can't understand how people can tear each other asunder over something so stupid like land or money.

I have one sibling, been through this twice. Land/property/machinery etc.
Myself and my sibling would kill each other, but we do take care of each other too.
There's been no issue with anything there, we are literally all we have left. We've lost everyone else and I'm sure both of us would give it all up for our family back.

I can't understand how people, right after losing one person, would be happy to lose more over stupid stuff.

Spanish Eyes

There is a lot to be said for veteran farmers passing on their knowledge and so on. That is ok if done in a good way.

What about if is done in a not so nice way? I have seen it.

Anyway, things are very different now "Down on the Farm" aren't they?

Maybe the old timers or previous owners cannot get their heads around that? Understandable really, but what can the current owner do, with all that old time stuff in their face? I have seen this. So do not give out to me please!

Spanish Eyes

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Can't understand how people can tear each other asunder over something so stupid like land or money.

I have one sibling, been through this twice. Land/property/machinery etc.
Myself and my sibling would kill each other, but we do take care of each other too.
There's been no issue with anything there, we are literally all we have left. We've lost everyone else and I'm sure both of us would give it all up for our family back.

I can't understand how people, right after losing one person, would be happy to lose more over stupid stuff.

Two words... "The Field".

Not saying that happened for you or your sib, but it remains true for many.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Two words... "The Field".

Not saying that happened for you or your sib, but it rem
ains true for many.

I know. It's just sad. Like me and him would elbow each other out of the way crossing a room. But neither him or me were bothered ripping into each other over land. I know it happens, I just can't for the live of me understand how that could be such a concern after burying someone so important.

Del2005

bubblypop wrote: »

Yea, but its up to the sons or daughters to decide if they want to work the farm ( obviously I'm talking about when they are grown up, not dependants)
So, if they are working for the parents, the wages/ Compensation should be decided well before a parent dies.
I understand people wanting to keep the family farm in the family, but as regards just inheritance, no one should feel entitled to their parents assets, IMO.

Problems arise when parents tell a son/daughter one thing but have something completely different in the will.

Chain Smoker

bubblypop wrote: »

Yea, but its up to the sons or daughters to decide if they want to work the farm ( obviously I'm talking about when they are grown up, not dependants)
So, if they are working for the parents, the wages/ Compensation should be decided well before a parent dies.
I understand people wanting to keep the family farm in the family, but as regards just inheritance, no one should feel entitled to their parents assets, IMO.

A farm isn't really an asset like a house or a car or something, it can be a person's whole livelihood. If you don't understand that much you shouldn't really be talking about the matter tbh.
If the parents decided they were going to be a farmer (either intentionally or through not developing any kind of proper plan and availing of the free labour), that child is plenty entitled to something.

As for making a choice as an adult, if one of the parents is unwell, that child is gonna be expected to step in and keep things running temporarily.
They've already invested years into the thing too, that's gonna sway your decision making process a lot.

josip

bubblypop wrote: »

Yea, but its up to the sons or daughters to decide if they want to work the farm ( obviously I'm talking about when they are grown up, not dependants)

Where I grew up, most of the farmers sons were contributing from the age of 7. Bring the cows out from milking on the way to school, blocking roads when moving cattle, marking dipped sheep, ...
By the time they were no longer legally dependents (18), most local farmers had gotten 10 good years of work out of their sons and sometimes daughters.
Often farm work took priority over school homework. Some of the luckier ones had tough mothers who wouldn't tolerate that. But I've often heard farmers sons explain that they hadn't homework done because the silage had to be cut or it was lambing season.
When they finished the Leaving Cert, Ag College would have been paid for them by their fathers.
But for some of them, if they had notions about a fancy degree, they had to put themselves through college.

Water John

If a family member, son or daughter, puts in 'sweat equity' either working business/land or looking after them, they can challenge a will.

Quite often, especially with the living local, planning guidelines, sites are given on the farm to other family members.
A parent, must make provision for their children in their will, unless they are fully independent.

messy tessy

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There is a lot to be said for veteran farmers passing on their knowledge and so on. That is ok if done in a good way.

What about if is done in a not so nice way? I have seen it.

Anyway, things are very different now "Down on the Farm" aren't they?

Maybe the old timers or previous owners cannot get their heads around that? Understandable really, but what can the current owner do, with all that old time stuff in their face? I have seen this. So do not give out to me please!

Ha I don't think anyone is going to give out to you! :P
Yes I think a lot of mindsets have changed on the farm and from what I see farms are being treated as a business with the son / daughter being dealt with as an equal partner. In saying that, I'm sure there are many the awkward aul lad who is not happy with a young whippersnapper coming up with new ways of doing things.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

josip wrote: »

Valid point, but in the case of farms, very often farmers use their sons and daughters as a cheap form of labour to keep it running.
It's only reasonable to expect something in return for doing all that.

That's not always true. I'm sure like every profession, there are slave drivers, or mean people. Not just farmers. When my dad was going through his cancer treatment he was still farming. I gave up my paid job to help him, morning and evening, because he wasn't able, and that man would not let me lift so much a a fork of silage incase I hurt myself. When in reality I was in ten times more of a better state than he was for lifting.

I know my dad would have told us to sell the farm if it's not what we wanted, but both of us recognise he put so much of himself into making it a success it's too hard to walk away from.

It'll never be either of our full time jobs but it's there on the side.

[Deleted User]

Chain Smoker wrote: »

A farm isn't really an asset like a house or a car or something, it can be a person's whole livelihood. If you don't understand that much you shouldn't really be talking about the matter tbh.
If the parents decided they were going to be a farmer (either intentionally or through not developing any kind of proper plan and availing of the free labour), that child is plenty entitled to something.

As for making a choice as an adult, if one of the parents is unwell, that child is gonna be expected to step in and keep things running temporarily.
They've already invested years into the thing too, that's gonna sway your decision making process a lot.

No, if the parent is a farmer, then the parent is a farmer.
If a child wants to be a farmer also, and works the land as an adult, then the should take a wage and/ or be the recipient of the farm.
Otherwise, no child is entitled to their parents money / assets.

Spanish Eyes

josip wrote: »

Where I grew up, most of the farmers sons were contributing from the age of 7. Bring the cows out from milking on the way to school, blocking roads when moving cattle, marking dipped sheep, ...
By the time they were no longer legally dependents (18), most local farmers had gotten 10 good years of work out of their sons and sometimes daughters.
Often farm work took priority over school homework. Some of the luckier ones had tough mothers who wouldn't tolerate that. But I've often heard farmers sons explain that they hadn't homework done because the silage had to be cut or it was lambing season.
.

That describes my OH to a T there. Thanks for validating his experiences.

Not a good early life for many, and that is where your life starts.

Tough times alright. But were they necessary or were they expected?

And don't forget they had animal teachers aswell who beat them up too.

Whoa, what a start, middle and thank god a good end in life. But what a life.

Horrible times for many. But I digress.

Chain Smoker

bubblypop wrote: »

No, if the parent is a farmer, then the parent is a farmer.
If a child wants to be a farmer also, and works the land as an adult, then the should take a wage and/ or be the recipient of the farm.
Otherwise, no child is entitled to their parents money / assets.

So if your dad was a farmer, and got cancer, before assuming responsibility for the farm while he undergoes treatment, you'll negotiate wages/etc?
Obviously you should do that (and some do, usually when there's a clear heir to the throne and/or everyone is able to deal with the fact that he may not be returning to the farm), but there's a pretty good chance everyone'll be swept up in the chaos of the moment.

It's pretty easy to say "here's what they should do" when you've no grasp of how big of a role the whole thing takes in everyone's lives and the kinds of societal pressure involved.

Water John

Ah Spanish Eyes, they were very soft on ye, where ever you were reared.

I know the other side, too well.

[Deleted User]

Chain Smoker wrote: »

So if your dad was a farmer, and got cancer, before assuming responsibility for the farm while he undergoes treatment, you'll negotiate wages/etc?
Obviously you should do that (and some do, usually when there's a clear heir to the throne and/or everyone is able to deal with the fact that he may not be returning to the farm), but there's a pretty good chance everyone'll be swept up in the chaos of the moment.

It's pretty easy to say "here's what they should do" when you've no grasp of how big of a role the whole thing takes in everyone's lives and the kinds of societal pressure involved.

Well, I guess it all depends on when he gets sick. If he gets sick when his kids are grown up, then there is obviously someone doing the job already. If the kids are only kids, then its a whole different scenario.

Spanish Eyes

Water John wrote: »

Ah Spanish Eyes, they were very soft on ye, where ever you were reared.

I know the other side, too well.

What? I need more here!!

Water John

Sorry, SE, just the same upbringing as your OH. Though times indeed.