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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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overpronator

I managed to go from 3.15.45 in London 2014 to 2.58.20 in London 2015. What did it for me was consistency and increased mileage. I was very focused for 6 months beforehand and went into the marathon phase in a strong place 15 or 16 weeks out. I followed an amended P&D 55-70, adding weeks with MP sessions as I think P&D is light in this regard. I also did 7-8 20+ mile runs with 2 3hr+ long runs purely as time on the feet efforts. As mentioned the 15M weekly midweek run was important too, the 20 milers became very easy by the end. I also set the paces of MP runs around the 2.55 mark which helped as I still got cramps but had time to spare by the time they hit. I also feel that longer tempo runs at 10M-HM race pace are important as you are moving for a decent distance, up to 7 miles 30secs quicker than MP. These sessions give a very robust fitness boost I feel.
For the record I ran two tune up races in the lead up, HM in 1.23.07 and a 10k 37.37. I personally feel that sub 1.24 HM is the sweet spot for a sub 3 shot but that s open to discussion. The best of luck to all, as I said consistency and a little bit of luck should do it. If I managed it literally anyone can.

AuldManKing

Not a bit of work done today as I read through the previous posts in this thread.
I was nearly 'thanking' posts that were written back in 2012

FBOT01

overpronator wrote: »

I managed to go from 3.15.45 in London 2014 to 2.58.20 in London 2015. What did it for me was consistency and increased mileage. I was very focused for 6 months beforehand and went into the marathon phase in a strong place 15 or 16 weeks out. I followed an amended P&D 55-70, adding weeks with MP sessions as I think P&D is light in this regard. I also did 7-8 20+ mile runs with 2 3hr+ long runs purely as time on the feet efforts. As mentioned the 15M weekly midweek run was important too, the 20 milers became very easy by the end. I also set the paces of MP runs around the 2.55 mark which helped as I still got cramps but had time to spare by the time they hit. I also feel that longer tempo runs at 10M-HM race pace are important as you are moving for a decent distance, up to 7 miles 30secs quicker than MP. These sessions give a very robust fitness boost I feel.
For the record I ran two tune up races in the lead up, HM in 1.23.07 and a 10k 37.37. I personally feel that sub 1.24 HM is the sweet spot for a sub 3 shot but that s open to discussion. The best of luck to all, as I said consistency and a little bit of luck should do it. If I managed it literally anyone can.

Would be interested in seeing the details of what type of MP sessions you adding in and where you slotted them in if you can remember?

wowzer

I'm just going to add my PB's here just to show that you don't really need to hit all the so called sub 3 indicator times to be able to do it.

I hit my sub 3 in Berlin last year 2:59:40, my previous marathons were DCM 2013 3:19 & Rotterdam 2014 3:14

5k 18:29 (June 2015)
5m 32:01 (May 2014)
10k 39:39 (May 2015)
10m 66.48 (Feb 2015)
HM 1:27:28 (Sep 2015)

I was determined to get it first time around so I really put my everything into the training. I was given a little help with regards to a plan that consisted of 2 key sessions a week, the rest of my running was very easy and I generally hit 65-70 miles per week.

Now if overpronator says that if he can do it anyone can then I can times that by 2.

El Caballo

I entered the ballot for London yesterday, don't fancy my chances of getting in but I might as well throw my hat in the ring. My marathon progression:

4:07 (May 2013)
3:15 (October 2013)
3:55:o (October 2014)

My Pb's:

5k: 18:34 (Sept 2013)
5m: 31:15 (July 2013)
10k: 39:46 (July 2014)
10m:65:xx (July 2014)
HM: 1:26:26 (Sept 2013)
Mar: 3:15:29 (Oct 2013)

The big thing for me is my consistency and been able to put together 6 months of uninterrupted training, If I can do that, I'll have put myself in a spot where I have a pretty good shot at it on the day. Those Pb's are getting pretty old and were run during consistent spells of running as well. They need some serious revision at this stage so my plan is pretty simple, all I want to do is get some consistency in my running from now until next year and the PB's should start coming again....hopefully

overpronator

FBOT01 wrote: »

Would be interested in seeing the details of what type of MP sessions you adding in and where you slotted them in if you can remember?

Did the Tergat 5-4-3-2-1 @MP 4 weeks out and had a failed 20M with 14@MP 6 out if I remember.

davedanon

Ah f*ck it, in for a penny. I'm not seeing this as a realistic target for Berlin, but it's the eventual aspiration, so what the hell. Interesting variance in pb's, alright. Here's mine, FWIW:

5k 18:34 Jun 2013
5m 31:34 May 2013
10k 39:51 Apr 2012
10m 66:20 Aug 2013
HM 1:30:30 Aug 2011
M 3:14:18 Apr 2015

Hoping to go sub 3:10 in September. If that works I figure a sub 3:10 gives you the right to at least aspire towards the big one. Time is the enemy in my case though.

Wild Garlic

Ah sure why not.
I'll be giving DCM a lash this year and if I don't go sub 3 I'll never lace another pair of Asics again😀. This will be only my second attempt at the distance, the first been DCM '13.
PB's are;
5k 18:04(few weeks ago)
5 mile 31:43(Jan 15)
10k 38:23( feb 16)
10 mile, yet to do one
HM 87:07 (sept 15)

BeepBeep67

How I would approach the marathon now is that everything should be aimed at getting yourself in the best shape you can be to tackle your last 5 weeks and hit your key sharpening sessions and races.
Everything before that is just filler and gradually building up the strength and resistance to tackle those 4 intense weeks (increasing the LSR, increasing the mid week long run, building up threshold distance and adding quality to the long runs).

I ran 2 hilly 18's and a 20 with 8 @ MP in Jan, a 25 (recommended), a 22 and a 20 with 12 @ MP in Feb + a 10 mile race.
Then it's 4 weeks of getting race sharp, for me this looked like:

- Mar 3rd: 4 x 1200 (5k pace/5:37 min/ml) + 6 x 200
- Mar 5th: 5-4-3-2-1 @ MP 6:28, with reducing recoveries (5mins, 4min, etc)
- Mar 8th: 2 x 3M @ 10M pace (5:58)
- Mar 17th: HM (79:56)
- Mar 20th: 22M @ MP +45sec (7:15)
- Mar 22nd: 5 x 600 (3k pace/5:20 min/ml)
- Mar 31st: 3 x 1M (5k pace/5:36min)

Times heading into last cycle, I think it's important not to neglect the shorter races, the tempo and MP work feels easier off the back of those.
- Jan 21: parkrun 17:34
- Feb 7: Trim 10 60:17
- Feb 25: 3k 9:58
- Mar 17: Mullingar HM 79:56
Would have liked another parkrun 2 weeks before the marathon, but my niggle had flared a little so opted out.

ThebitterLemon

Fantastic to see this getting some traction with a nice eclectic mix of times and abilities.

Tnx to Gavlor, BBeep, KC, Plodman, OP & Wzer for contributing.

Nice to see this thread roll along over the summer and track the progress.

I'll post a summary every Sunday of my weeks trains my training.

There's certainly enough of us to make this a productive thread.

Tnx guys

TbL

BeepBeep67

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

How I would approach the marathon now is that everything should be aimed at getting yourself in the best shape you can be to tackle your last 5 weeks and hit your key sharpening sessions and races.
Everything before that is just filler and gradually building up the strength and resistance to tackle those 4 intense weeks (increasing the LSR, increasing the mid week long run, building up threshold distance and adding quality to the long runs).

I ran 2 hilly 18's and a 20 with 8 @ MP in Jan, a 25 (recommended), a 22 and a 20 with 12 @ MP in Feb + a 10 mile race.
Then it's 4 weeks of getting race sharp, for me this looked like:

- Mar 3rd: 4 x 1200 (5k pace/5:37 min/ml) + 6 x 200
- Mar 5th: 5-4-3-2-1 @ MP 6:28, with reducing recoveries (5mins, 4min, etc)
- Mar 8th: 2 x 3M @ 10M pace (5:58)
- Mar 17th: HM (79:56)
- Mar 20th: 22M @ MP +45sec (7:15)
- Mar 22nd: 5 x 600 (3k pace/5:20 min/ml)
- Mar 31st: 3 x 1M (5k pace/5:36min)

Times heading into last cycle, I think it's important not to neglect the shorter races, the tempo and MP work feels easier off the back of those.
- Jan 21: parkrun 17:34
- Feb 7: Trim 10 60:17
- Feb 25: 3k 9:58
- Mar 17: Mullingar HM 79:56
Would have liked another parkrun 2 weeks before the marathon, but my niggle had flared a little so opted out.

FWIW here's a high level view of the 14 week plan I followed, I did have 2 months of 291/310 before jumping into this

MrMacPhisto

Name

10k

10m

Mara

Target Race

neilc

Not sure I should be in here but I reckon if I get two good cycles in a row I've a chance. Some PB's very soft due to lack of racing, only ever ran one 5 mile race 4 years ago. Will definitely race more in the next year.

Last 'good' marathon was a 30 second negative split 3:12 in London last year which was a 10 week cycle with very little base due to injury.

5 weeks prior to Boston this year was in good shape and fairly comfortably hit the 5,4,3,2,1 session at <7:05 pace but unfortunately got injured shortly after.

So my plan is to put everything into the next years training, with the goal of hitting 3:05 in Dublin this year and then going for the sub 3 in London next year! This will also need to include big improvements with strength work and a clean diet both of which are definitely my weak links. Staying injury free has definitely becoming an issue too as each year passes.

Will be following here with great interest.

5k - 19:19
5m - 32:18
10k - 39:56
10m - 70:37
HM - 1:29:14
Mara - 3:10:28

demfad

I think it would be a good insight into the limiters for breaking 3 hrs if runners who attempted it (but missed out) could share where they felt the race went wrong on the day. (e.g slow last quarter?). Once the few principle limiters are established the key ingredients to the successful attempts should become more obvious.

Krusty_Clown

demfad wrote: »

I think it would be a good insight into the limiters for breaking 3 hrs if runners who attempted it (but missed out) could share where they felt the race went wrong on the day. (e.g slow last quarter?). Once the few principle limiters are established the key ingredients to the successful attempts should become more obvious.

Good point. I ran Berlin in 2009 (I think it was) and had actually planned on trying to run around 3:05. On the morning of the race, I threw caution to the wind and decided 'screw it', I'm going to go for it. The day was quite a warm one, but armed with a good structured program (P&D), I managed to get through the miles, believing that I was on target. It was only as I hit the Brandenburg gate that I realized that the pace showing on my watch wasn't a reflection of reality, and I had missed my attempt at sub-3, crossing the line in 3:00:50. Not sure if I'd have had it within me to run sub-3 that day had I known otherwise, but my great learning learning experience from that day was 'don't trust the watch'. If aiming for a specific time goal, then use a pace-band. But again, training for 2:55 would also have given me a margin for error that might have made up for my blind ignorance. My next outing (6 months later) I trained for 2:55, and ran 2:55.

One other interesting thing about that day in Berlin (that I'm sure I've probably mentioned elsewhere in this long thread!), is that I was very happy with my time that day. Absolutely delighted. I thought that I had run so well, that I would never better that time. After that, I ran 2:55, 2:48, 2:48, 2:46, 2:43, 2:38, 2:38, 2:35, and 2:33. Hopefully not done yet. But the point is, if you believe you've hit your potential, you are as likely to be wrong, as to be right. If you have previously run 3:05, and set your sights on 3:10, then you'll definitely hit 3:10. But if you set your sights on 2:55... You never know. You're only done, when you decide you're done.

kerrylad1

Lads this is what i do.I run 6 days with 5 days slow.7:40/8:00 min miles and a marathon paced effort every Tuesday.Starting 12 weeks out,I do 8 on a Tuesday at m.p.I then add on a mile every week.Then 3 weeks out if I do 16 at m.p. I seem to get under the 3.Some weeks if I feel fresh I do a 10k time trial on a friday and if its around high 36min, low 37min. I know I am on track.I do a 20 mile every Saturday from 10 weeks out and a 2 week taper. Hope this helps.

PaulieYifter

This thread was and is great - glad to see it revived. Amongst the 15 marathons I've done I have clocked the following times: 2:56, 2:58, 2:59, 3:00, 3:01, 3:02 so I've been thereabouts on many occasions.

T-Runner was asking what caused near misses.
I think a big thing is belief (training to target say 2:55 may help with that belief, not that I did that).
I think I lost a lot of energy in the lead up and during the near-misses with nerves, lack of belief, fear of not being able to do it.

On the day itself though I'd be wary about trying to bank time - if you are genuinely in good sub 3 shape then being 1:29:30 at half way is fine (except in Boston!).

Consistency in training is also key - 6 days a week running injury free - I didn't get above 60 miles a week for my 1st sub 3 but after spraining my ankle I then didn't miss a scheduled run for 14 weeks up to the day. Don't murder yourself and put consistency at risk - the title of AMK's thread comes to mind too.

On the training front for me I'm not a huge fan of the LSR, prefer LR - every second week I'd do my long run with "stuff", viz. surges, marathon paced intervals, marathon paced miles, progression, etc. Even my regular long runs are not usually more than a minute per mile slower than target pace. For me I think that's of more benefit than lashing out 5 x 1 mile 48 hrs earlier and then plodding around on a long slow run. Another thing with my training is that most of my long runs are done on nothing more than a glass of water before setting off.

Enjoy the training, enjoy the challenge and believe in yourself.

Bulmers74

Count me in!!

Marathon times to date
3:28 DCM '13
3:18 DCM '14
3:08 Limerick '15
3:13 London '16
Was training for DCM '15 & was nearing a possible tilt at sub 3. Got injured & things were a bit disjointed for a while. Hoping to get back in that shape by the end of the year.

PB's
5k 18:53 July '15
5m 31:46 May '15
10k 39:33 July '15
10m 66.00 August '15
HM 1:26:27 Sept '15
Full 3:08:36 May '15

MrMacPhisto

demfad wrote: »

I think it would be a good insight into the limiters for breaking 3 hrs if runners who attempted it (but missed out) could share where they felt the race went wrong on the day. (e.g slow last quarter?). Once the few principle limiters are established the key ingredients to the successful attempts should become more obvious.

Target marathon- Dublin 2015
Training plan- 18wk P&D up to 55mile plan, paces aimed at 2:55:00

Training- training went well, followed the plan closely. Did little or no racing during the training. Ran the race series 10M and 1/2 marathon at marathon pace to practice fuel intake and controlling my pace in a race environment. Missed approx 4 training days around week 6 to recover from a small niggle. Otherwise, I was happy with my training and confident of hitting target.

Race- Windy conditions. Ran first half of marathon at my planned marathon pace -2 seconds. Felt good, and thought banking time with a tailwind would help with tougher conditions from half-way point onwards. Reached half-way feeling good. Maintained marathon pace from 1/2 through to 3/4 while running into strong headwind. On target for 2:55 at 34k. The quicker than MP and MP into headwind led to a poor finish, losing 5:56 in the last 8.5k to finish in 3:00:56. I faded, and was short of energy, I finished slightly hypoglycaemic (Im type 1 diabetic) at the end of race (3.6mmol was my glucose level post race).

Conclusion: Poor pacing given the conditions. My target time was realistic and I was well trained for it, however it was too rigid. I believe if I had adjust my pace on the day for 2:59:XX hr marathon, i would have come home with a 2:57-2:58. By not adjusting to the conditions, I ended up burning extra energy in the first 32k and dragging myself home.

In hindsight, I also think racing more races would have been beneficial. I think that racing gives a better mental edge for when the times get tough. I also need to work on my nutrition management. Coming anywhere close to 3.6mmol during race is not a good situation.

Lesson learnt? Be flexible! Looking forward to Valencia on November 20th 2016.

Duanington

FBOT01 wrote: »

Name
|
5k
|
5m
|
10k
|
10m
|
HM
|
Mara
|
Target Race

TbL | 19:27 | 31:xx | 39:30 | 01:04:xx | 01:25:xx | 03:05:xx | TBC 2016
FBOT | 17:42 | 29:59 | 38:42 | 01:00:34 | 01:26:02 | 03:00:59 | TBC
AMK | 17:38 | 29:13 | 37:40 | 01:02:30 | 01:27:xx | 03:00:36 | DCM 2016
Tomwaits48 | 19:17 | 32:00 | 39:xx || 01:28:xx | 03:17:xx | TBC 2017
Duanington ||||||| Berlin 2016

Come on DD there is space waiting for you

I knew this was coming! To be honest, sub 3 doesn't mean a whole lot to me, I'll work my b*llix off in training between now and Berlin and hopefully run the legs off myself on the day - if I do that, I'll be happy. BUT, I would also like to think that the resulting time would be a good PB and start with "2"

5k - 17:35, 5 mile 29.17 , 10k 36.36, 10 mile 61.42, half 1.23.22, full 3.03.xx

Would someone pop those into the table? I'll break it

ThebitterLemon

Folks the contributions on here over the last day or so show what's great about this forum. Great to see and long may it last.

Tnx

TbL

snailsong

Name

10k

10m

Mara

Target Race

TbL | 19:27 | 31:xx | 39:30 | 01:04:xx | 01:25:xx | 03:05:xx | TBC 2016
FBOT | 17:42 | 29:59 | 38:42 | 01:00:34 | 01:26:02 | 03:00:59 | TBC
AMK | 17:38 | 29:13 | 37:40 | 01:02:30 | 01:27:xx | 03:00:36 | DCM 2016
Tomwaits48 | 19:17 | 32:00 | 39:xx || 01:28:xx | 03:17:xx | TBC 2017
Duanington ||||||| Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto | 17:23 | 29:01 | 36:42 | 01:01:55 | 1:22:53 | 3:00:56 | Valencia 2016
snailsong |19:06|31:49|39:11|NA|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017

As you can see I'm not quite in range yet. One positive, all those pbs, apart from 5 miles which I haven't done in years, were set in the past 2 months or so. After a few years of near stagnation I seem to be improving again. I'm very optimistic about breaking 19 for 5k and 39 for 10k in the near future. I'd love to think I could break 3:05 next time out and go for the big one next year. A few months ago I'd have said it was impossible but now I reckon its back in play. Enjoying running more than ever so while that continues I'm not setting any limits.

Coffee Fulled Runner

This thread is pure gold

Gavlor

demfad wrote: »

I think it would be a good insight into the limiters for breaking 3 hrs if runners who attempted it (but missed out) could share where they felt the race went wrong on the day. (e.g slow last quarter?). Once the few principle limiters are established the key ingredients to the successful attempts should become more obvious.

My marathon times between June 2012 and April 2014: 3.26; 3.09; 3.02; 3.00.04

; 2.59.

For both Limerick and Dublin i just didn't have the training done. Limerick was particularly tough from 21-24 where the pacer just drifted off into the distance and I could do nothing about it. A grade 2 hamstring tear due to lack of conditioning out paid to dcm and cost me a few minutes (even though I only needed 5 seconds!)

I really only took the whole training thing seriously for London 14.
Prior to that I was fluting in and out of running hitting average of 30 miles a week. I Increased the quantity and quality for London to over 50 miles per week at the business end of the plan and did my training based on 2.55 even though I targeted 2.57/8 on the day. I went in with an injured glute which didn't help but I had enough in the tank to get over the line.

What would/will I do differently for dcm?

I will race a hell of a lot more. The best marathon runners that I know race 5k-5m-10k as often as possible. If it works for them why not for me?! I've already had 4 races over the last few weeks with a 10k and 5 miler over the next 3 weeks.

Train with runners that are better than me. No matter what the sport, practising with better players should bring you on. Whether it's a 2% or 10% improvement the marginal gains make all the difference. For example The faster guys in the club do a midweek mlr at a decent tip. I plan on making as many of those as possible.

Core work. I suffer on my right leg with hamstring, glute and hip injuries all down to a inactive glute minimus. It has caused me huge problems in the past and I've been working on it for the past few months. Strength work will be at the core of my training

Enjoy it. I'm not going to let the marathon consume my life. I coach kids in both soccer and hurling, we have 2 kids and a new baby at home so I'll need to be economical with my time as family comes first.

Haven't quite cracked that yet!

rooneyjm

Can someone put me into the table. Was thinking of starting my own log to get feedback but this is perfect.

Marathons
DCM 12 - Target sub 3.30- Result 3.29.xx. Not a whole lot of training done, though this running lark was handy enough.
DCM 14 - Target 3.15- Result 4.05. Blew up and had to walk 2 miles. Did a lot more training but ended in tears
NY 15 - Target 3.15 - Result 3.23. Much more structure in training, not the result I wanted but happy after the previous outing.

5k- 19.35
5m - None
10k - 39.20 Dunshaughlin 2015
10m - 1.08 race series 2015
HM - 1.29.37 race series 2015
M - 3.23 NY

Looking to build towards a Sub 3 attempt next spring, maybe Manchester.

I'm going to look for some advice straight off. Doing Dublin Ironman 70.3 in August (don't judge me) and will only have 10 weeks from there to DCM. Should I go for a pb in Dublin or use the time to build a big base up to Dec and start an 18 week plan early Dec.

davedanon

Name

10k

10m

Mara

Target Race

tomwaits48

Name

10k

10m

Mara

Target Race

AuldManKing

My sub 3 shot ended with cramp in Manchester - (on the short course

).

The cause of the cramp was fatigue and not electrolyte inbalance or anything nutritional (I'm convinced of this).
There were a few things in my training that I'd change in order to rectify this.

(1) Race a bit more - I wasn't mentally tough to grind it out - racing gives you that edge to work through the tough conditions. I'll at least do a HM and a few shorter races that wont impact my training too much.

(2) Core work / Leg strength work - will do a lot more of this.

(3) More and longer marathon paced runs - last plan had snippets of it 3x15 mins / 2x20 mins - this time I'll be looking at regular MP runs of 6-10 miles. With 1 or 2 longer efforts.

(4) Mileage peaked at 65 per week - I'll look to peak at 80 next time round.

I can remember during my marathon training in '14 that I wasn't feeling especially wrecked from it - does that tell its own tale?

Itziger

How do you add to tables in this new version, is it like the old or what?

davedanon

Itziger wrote: »

How do you add to tables in this new version, is it like the old or what?

I think so. If by that you mean Quote the table, add in your details in the existing format, and then remove the 'Quotes' in brackets.