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Ukrainians mark the 73rd anniversary of the formation of their SS division.

Jimmy Garlic

With a torch light procession no less. I think that we all owe the Dutch a BIG thank you for saying no to ushering Ukraine into the EU. This kind of stuff is way too popular there -

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Gatling

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Here you are stating this as if it is a fact yet it has never been proven.

Well we know fact Ukraine didn't do it .

The CIA didn't do it

Commandos with jet packs didn't do it .

Russia did it . They also claimed they had videos of the radar that showed 2 Ukrainian su24s attacking MH17 but they have refused to release them why would that be ....

Jimmy Garlic

Sand wrote: »

Any identifiable ethnic group that might have nationalist or separatist aspirations was singled out. In 1933 the Communists celebrated the crushing of the Ukrainian people by exterminating their cultural and political elites and starving to death millions of their people...all by accident? Its no wonder the Ukrainians viewed the Germans as liberators from Moscow's gentle rule.

As I said before. Stalins policies ended up killing millions and millions of people across the Soviet union, including millions of Russians. "liquidating the Kulaks as a class." was his aim. ''Kulaks'' were basically all the peasant farmers in the Soviet Union.

Jimmy Garlic

Gatling wrote: »

Well we know fact Ukraine didn't do it .

No we don't. They have not been forthcoming with important information, such as the air traffic control tapes that they have hidden away.

BoJack Horseman

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

As I said before. Stalins policies ended up killing millions and millions of people across the Soviet union, including millions of Russians. "liquidating the Kulaks as a class." was his aim. ''Kulaks'' were basically all the peasant farmers in the Soviet Union.

Death fell disproportionately upon Ukraine though.

We've probably all read Anthony Beevor's work to be familiar with the name 'Hiwi'.
After suffering under the unparalleled evil that was soviet communism, any invader will feel like relief to some.

Jimmy Garlic

gandalf wrote: »

Jaysus what shocker Nazis in the Ukraine! What next Nazis in Russia maybe.

Are Russian nazis officially endorsed by the Russian government and incorporated as distinct units in the Russian armed forces?

PopePalpatine

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

That's the line alright

Whatever happened to Egginacup?

There were cutbacks in St Petersburg.

Sand

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

As I said before. Stalins policies ended up killing millions and millions of people across the Soviet union, including millions of Russians. "liquidating the Kulaks as a class." was his aim. ''Kulaks'' were basically all the peasant farmers in the Soviet Union.

You see, that's your opinion. And in the opinion of the Ukrainians who suffered under Moscow's rule through the 1920s and 1930s, the Germans were liberators. Now with the benefit of hindsight we can say Ukraine was simply trapped between two evil, inhuman empires but I can understand their desperation to be free of an evil regime like the Soviet Union.

And why is it being commemorated in 2016? Well, with the year that is in it surely Ireland can appreciate that it is sometimes for modern societies to acknowledge some ugly past without being seen to reject nationalist narratives. Certainly, I care less for Ukraines past brushes with nationalist socialism than Putin taking his lead on international relations from a certain Austrians playbook.

suicide_circus

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

No we don't. They have not been forthcoming with important information, such as the air traffic control tapes that they have hidden away.

Maybe you can link a RT video to support your argument?

esforum

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Some of the worst atrocities against Jews were committed in Ukraine by Ukrainian and Tatar nazis.

Not in any history book I have ever read but ok, I wasnt actually suggesting the Ukraine SS were nice people just suggesting a reasoning for them

Jimmy Garlic

Sand wrote: »

You see, that's your opinion.

It isn't just my opinion, it is a fact. The policy of "liquidating the Kulaks as a class" was not confined to Ukraine.

Jimmy Garlic

esforum wrote: »

Not in any history book I have ever read but ok, I wasnt actually suggesting the Ukraine SS were nice people just suggesting a reasoning for them

What kind of history books do you read. Were they written by Peter Andre? Maybe you should have a conversation with the descendants of Ukrainian Jews that survived. They will set you straight in short order.

BoJack Horseman

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The policy of "liquidating the Kulaks as a class" was not confined to Ukraine.

Grand bunch of lads weren't they!

Can't imagine why anyone would want to rise against these boyos given the chance?

karma_

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Grand bunch of lads weren't they!

Can't imagine why anyone would want to rise against these boyos given the chance?

Context is not a defence.

[Deleted User]

esforum wrote: »

Not in any history book I have ever read but ok, I wasnt actually suggesting the Ukraine SS were nice people just suggesting a reasoning for them

Anti-semitism was rife in eastern europe, I was reading a book on the WW1 eastern front recently which describes many incidents of anti-semitism, but surprisingly, in light of what was to come, it says that germans were significantly better disposed to jews than hungarians or russian troops (particularly cossacks), for example many fled the city of Lemberg before it's capture by the russians and when the city was recaptured by the Austro-hungarians and Germans they were welcomed back with great enthusiasm by those jews that still remained

Sand

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

It isn't just my opinion, it is a fact. The policy of "liquidating the Kulaks as a class" was not confined to Ukraine.

No, its an opinion. That the Nazis targeted people other than the disabled for state murder does not mean that their targeting of the disabled is not state murder. 15 countries recognise the starvation of the Ukrainians as an act of genocide. 5 consider it a 'criminal act' by the Soviet Union. That's their opinion too.

What you don't get is you're betraying your sources by trying to claim that everyone was targeted. Under Soviet propaganda, everyone equally suffers - but especially the Russians.

Gatling

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

No we don't

We do

Jimmy Garlic

Gatling wrote: »

We do

Show me the proof. Not the opinions of those with an agenda, just proof. While you are at it you might explain why Ukraine is still hiding the air traffic control tapes.

BoJack Horseman

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Show me the proof. Not the opinions of those with an agenda, just proof.

Aah... the derivation of 'no true scotsman' gambit.

This forum has seen this thousands of times before.

- Show me proof!
- proof given
- No, I don't want that.... show me proof!
& repeat.

And of course, to the fervent, there is no proof that exists in this physical universe that would be sufficient anyway.

It's been nearly 2 years of this sh*te....

Gatling

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Ukraine is still hiding the air traffic control tapes.

No .

So russia has radar video showing 2 Ukrainian su24s attacking and shooting down MH17 and eye witnesses too .

But there hiding this evidence which exonerates them of any involvement why ..............

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Aah... the derivation of 'no true scotsman' gambit.

This forum has seen this thousands of times before.

- Show me proof!
- proof given
- No, I don't want that.... show me proof!
& repeat.

And of course, to the fervent, there is no proof that exists in this physical universe that would be sufficient anyway.

It's been nearly 2 years of this sh*te....

At least we can get out post count back

BoJack Horseman

Gatling wrote: »

No .

So russia has radar video showing 2 Ukrainian su24s attacking and shooting down MH17 and eye witnesses too

No Gatling.... if you remember, the Kremlin were happy to provide the proof.

Here is the remarkably bogus image they helpfully provided.... very 'on the nose!'.... even photoshopping the exact fraction of a second of weapons release (though surveilance satellites don't really work like that).

And of course the official report confirmed that the weapon used was a SAM (9M38-series missile with 9N314M warhead to be exact) & not a AAM.

2 years later.... and there are still idiots pushing this f*ckwittery.

Gatling

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

No Gatling.... if you remember, the Kremlin were happy to provide

How could I forget

Jimmy Garlic

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

And of course the official report confirmed that the weapon used was a SAM (9M38-series missile with 9N314M warhead to be exact) & not a AAM.

What is that supposed to prove? Ukraine uses that variant too.

Sand

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

What is that supposed to prove? Ukraine uses that variant too.

SAM vs AAM.

Both stories cant be true.

Jimmy Garlic

Sand wrote: »

SAM vs AAM.

Both stories cant be true.

I am not saying that I know for sure who is responsible. Armchair generals on here with their new found expertise on military hardware are. Ukraine has far from exonerated itself and the fact that they are withholding the ATC tapes is highly suspicious, wouldn't you say? Aren't you curious about what is on those tapes?

BoJack Horseman

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

I am not saying that I know for sure who is responsible

You don't have to know for sure Jimmy, but what do you think happened?

- Either the Dutch Safety Board's assessment is correct, that it was a SAM.
Or,
- The that the Kremlin's assessment, and provided "proof" is correct in that it was an AAM.

Which do you think is the right judgement?

Sand

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

I am not saying that I know for sure who is responsible. Armchair generals on here with their new found expertise on military hardware are. Ukraine has far from exonerated itself and the fact that they are withholding the ATC tapes is highly suspicious, wouldn't you say? Aren't you curious about what is on those tapes?

Neither am I. I wasn't there. It might have been shot down by a regular Russian military unit on 'holidays' or it might have been shot down by irregular Russian militias supplied with state level weaponry by Russia. But it certainly wasn't shot down by the Ukrainians, the US, the Jews, the Lizard people or whatever conspiracy theory your flowchart is pointing you to.

As for armchair generals...with you not able to tell the implications of an SAM vs. an AAM...I wouldn't be using your own lack of knowledge to discredit others views.

Given the thread has so easily derailed into (another) debate about Putins crimes in Ukraine, doesn't it highlight the shallow propaganda effort of the OP?

Jimmy Garlic

Sand wrote: »

But it certainly wasn't shot down by the Ukrainians,

You haven't the foggiest idea about who shot it down, but you will stick with the notion that the Ukrainians 100% didn't because that suits your Russia is the big bad boogyman bias. The phenomenal levels of cognitive dissonance you and your bedfellows suffer from knows no bounds. Latching on to hearsay and speculation as fact, but only if it suits you. Ignoring things that that don't fit in with the parroted narrative, such as the fact that Ukraine is hiding the ATC tapes. Some of you will even go so far as to make excuses for nazis holding SS commerations and torchlight processions. Shameful.

Gatling

If Ukraine are hiding the tapes as accused by several posters past and present,
Why are the transcripts readily available, the Dutch investigation had them too .
They also have the black box recorders also with transcripts available to the public .

So what are Ukraine supposedly hiding again because it seems some people stick to the Kremlin lines

The Randy Riverbeast

PC gone mad. Can't even have a little get together to support something without someone pointing out the group killed a few people. It was in the past, the nazis haven't killed anyone in ages!