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Wormer resistance: preventing it in sheep

LostCovey

Hi,

Prompted by a post by Johngalway on the ChitChat thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056178139&page=67
about possible wormer resistance in his sheep, I was re-reading the new guidelines on using wormers to prevent resistance developing, and it is amazing to see how the worm control advice has been completely reversed lately, like:

- dose everything (now only dose animals that are likely to have a heavy burden, don't dose any older animals if possible)
- dose the ewes at lambing time (now only dose ewes with couples)
- dose and move to clean pasture (now dose a few days after moving to clean pasture OR dose a few days before the move and put them back on the dirty pasture for a while)

Its a completely different way of thinking, to try to prevent resistant genes building up (rather than trying to kill every single worm).

Are many people here following this new approach yet?

LostCovey

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Username John

LostCovey wrote: »

Hi,

Prompted by a post by Johngalway on the ChitChat thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056178139&page=67
about possible wormer resistance in his sheep, I was re-reading the new guidelines on using wormers to prevent resistance developing, and it is amazing to see how the worm control advice has been completely reversed lately, like:

- dose everything (now only dose animals that are likely to have a heavy burden, don't dose any older animals if possible)
- dose the ewes at lambing time (now only dose ewes with couples)
- dose and move to clean pasture (now dose a few days after moving to clean pasture OR dose a few days before the move and put them back on the dirty pasture for a while)

Its a completely different way of thinking, to try to prevent resistant genes building up (rather than trying to kill every single worm).

Are many people here following this new approach yet?

LostCovey

I am half following this - but only in a lazy mans approach. And am still not confident I am doing the right thing, so all ears to hear what others do...

- We try to have early lambs - ready for May - June. They are dosed twice before they leave, around 5-6 weeks and 14 weeks... but depends on weather moreso.
- The sheep havent been dosed since they lambed (Well, aside from a few cos they looked a bit thin)
- Last year, I dosed everything at lambing. Plan to do so again this year as I think the ewe has enough to contend with
- Any dosing I do, they go back onto the same field and then moved a few days after

Having said all this - its only half-ar'sed, as I am not doing FEC, so its still all guesswork...

Its prob the ewe lambs I keep would be the ones most in danger of heavy burdens, and I did dose em lately - but I dont like to dose em too often, as I think its good for them but to build up immunity... But you dont want em to get any damage from heavy burdens either...

Like I say - wouldnt be too confident of what to do re dosing, and must start FEC so eager to hear other opinions...

Cran

We've always had a does only when required policy, but as with John bit of a lazy man approach as based perception more than science. We do though rotate doses as much as we can, return to old pasture after dosing for a week and then move to clean pasture, and do not dose the ewes unless individuals require it.
Would be really interested if someone could put up an fools guide to FEC, and how to identify worms etc.....

flatout11

Cran wrote: »

Would be really interested if someone could put up an fools guide to FEC, and how to identify worms etc.....

at €6 per sample ... it wouldnt cover the cost of the microscope
we use a white wormer at 5 to 6 weeks
then switch to ivormec from 10 weeks on have done samples last year and this during mid season, i dont dose lambs coming near fit and we never dose ewes - cant see the piont

LostCovey

Cran wrote: »

Would be really interested if someone could put up an fools guide to FEC, and how to identify worms etc.....

Done.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74128331#post74128331

LostCovey

LostCovey

flatout11 wrote: »

at €6 per sample ... it wouldnt cover the cost of the microscope

I agree if you don't do it often. If you do it as often as you should it would pay.
Its also satisfying, faster, and you can do it more often (before and after dosing for example, as often as you want.

I reckon I save not in lab fees, but in doses planned but not given.

BUT

That price hasn't changed in AT LEAST 15 years, I don't see that lasting in our sad poor post-Lehman-Bros world

LC

flatout11

LostCovey wrote: »

Done.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74128331#post74128331

LostCovey

what count do you go in and dose at?

flatout11

LostCovey wrote: »

I agree if you don't do it often. If you do it as often as you should it would pay.
Its also satisfying, faster, and you can do it more often (before and after dosing for example, as often as you want.

I reckon I save not in lab fees, but in doses planned but not given.

BUT

LC

5 times a year every 3 weeks ......... but i agree you could save a bit on dosing. there was some word of vet practices starting doing fecpaks

LostCovey

flatout11 wrote: »

what count do you go in and dose at?

About 300-500, but it depends. If you are doing them regularly and it suddenly increases (0 - 400) I might dose, but if it is tipping along at 100, 200 300 I would hold off.

There's no doubt this is the hardest part of it all - interpreting the counts

Not hard to interpret if a dose works though

LC

flatout11

LostCovey wrote: »

About 300-500, but it depends. If you are doing them regularly and it suddenly increases (0 - 400) I might dose, but if it is tipping along at 100, 200 300 I would hold off.

There's no doubt this is the hardest part of it all - interpreting the counts

Not hard to interpret if a dose works though

LC

I was told not to panic until it reached 500 to 600 but if its a wet summer i was told the counts increase quicker, right enough during dry spells this year the counts were low, have to agree i did a resistance test last year and i have a problem with white and yellow drenches - confirmed what i was thinking, id still be able to use the yellow ones off and on but it aint worth buying them for one/two doses a year.
i still think resistance is inevitable its just a case of delaying it is it not?

razor8

I noticed a good few lambs with dirty back ends this evening. I dosed them at 7 weeks with bimectin and they are around 11 weeks old now. Going to get them FEC sampled this week as some of ye will point out. I have used this product for six years now and I got a FEC sample done last year and it came back negative but said I had some with cocci so I did them all with vecoxan this year at 5/6 weeks

I'm going them with selenium and cobalt this week, which is there first mineral dose. Even though I got a negative result last year I’m convinced I maybe developing some problem. What products do ye use on your lambs, was thinking of using a white or yellow dose along with the bimectin, any recommendations?

Username John

razor8 wrote: »

I noticed a good few lambs with dirty back ends this evening. I dosed them at 7 weeks with bimectin and they are around 11 weeks old now. Going to get them FEC sampled this week as some of ye will point out. I have used this product for six years now and I got a FEC sample done last year and it came back negative but said I had some with cocci so I did them all with vecoxan this year at 5/6 weeks

I'm going them with selenium and cobalt this week, which is there first mineral dose. Even though I got a negative result last year I’m convinced I maybe developing some problem. What products do ye use on your lambs, was thinking of using a white or yellow dose along with the bimectin, any recommendations?

Hi Razor,

How are you doing? How are your lambs getting on this year?

I am afraid I don't have any answers or advice for you...

But I will tell you what I did, maybe it will help...

I got a FEC done around start May, my lambs were about
7 weeks-ish then. Results came back positive for Coccidia, but no nemotodirus. So I dosed them with Vecoxan (expensive stuff)

I kept an eye on em then, and weighed em around once a week or so, and they were doing very well... til last week, weighed em and wasn't happy with their performance... And there is one or two dirty...
Now - I think I screwed up, I should have dosed em maybe a week ago or more... :mad:

So I am going to dose em with a white drench this evening or tomorrow.

My worry is that they are a bit old now for a white drench (~12 weeks) as I have read that lambs 6 - 12 weeks are the ones at risk of nemotodirus, and I think white drench is kinda useless for any sort of worms.
But - I am going to go in with it anyways....

I will also give em some cobalt if I have time, if not, will give it to them at the weekend. I have given them cobalt already, as we seem to be low in it here. I just use straight cobalt, not the B12 or Selenium stuff...

So - like I said, no answers, in fact maybe more questions...

:rolleyes:

razor8

you can always count on you UJ for a reply

all advice welcome, my lambs were averaging 300g on the button at 7 weeks but i havent weighed them since. i had noticed one or two dirty last week but that number has significantly increased since then so im getting too impatient to wait for FEC results to come back, i am assuming a 2 week turnaround for results to come back so i want to go in with a dose this week incase they start going in reverse but undecided what to use

see some vets are recommending multi dosing now as per farming sunday last week. was trying to get a hold of vet today and see about maybe blood testing a few. i thought i had everything covered this year with cocci and nemo's but something most be wrong to have so many dirty

if i hadnt of fec tested last year i would be convinced i had resistance but that result was negetive

as soon as your on top of something another problem always seems to appear!

rancher

Username John wrote: »

Hi Razor,

How are you doing? How are your lambs getting on this year?

I am afraid I don't have any answers or advice for you...

But I will tell you what I did, maybe it will help...

I got a FEC done around start May, my lambs were about
7 weeks-ish then. Results came back positive for Coccidia, but no nemotodirus. So I dosed them with Vecoxan (expensive stuff)

I kept an eye on em then, and weighed em around once a week or so, and they were doing very well... til last week, weighed em and wasn't happy with their performance... And there is one or two dirty...
Now - I think I screwed up, I should have dosed em maybe a week ago or more... :mad:

So I am going to dose em with a white drench this evening or tomorrow.

My worry is that they are a bit old now for a white drench (~12 weeks) as I have read that lambs 6 - 12 weeks are the ones at risk of nemotodirus, and I think white drench is kinda useless for any sort of worms.
But - I am going to go in with it anyways....

I will also give em some cobalt if I have time, if not, will give it to them at the weekend. I have given them cobalt already, as we seem to be low in it here. I just use straight cobalt, not the B12 or Selenium stuff...

So - like I said, no answers, in fact maybe more questions... :rolleyes:

You really have to be doing FECs to know what is working on a farm, we had a farmer here with a dung sample this morning, he has 600 ewes and has been using only a cheap white dose for the last 4 years and thought he didn't get a response to his last round of dosing,.....the lambs were 100% clear, and he had stomach worms and nematodirus in the pre dose sample.
On lamb thrive, it's hard to keep them thriving from now on. mine have dropped to 200g/day, try to keep it grazed hard or mowed and quality should improve a bit at the end of the mth, when you wean you can use the dry ewes to clean off paddocks, I gave them animax boluses for iodine selenium and cobalt and also clik so they shouldn't take much minding from now on.....haven't weaned yet though

razor8

rancher wrote: »

You really have to be doing FECs to know what is working on a farm, we had a farmer here with a dung sample this morning, he has 600 ewes and has been using only a cheap white dose for the last 4 years and thought he didn't get a response to his last round of dosing,.....the lambs were 100% clear, and he had stomach worms and nematodirus in the pre dose sample.
On lamb thrive, it's hard to keep them thriving from now on. mine have dropped to 200g/day, try to keep it grazed hard or mowed and quality should improve a bit at the end of the mth, when you wean you can use the dry ewes to clean off paddocks, I gave them animax boluses for iodine selenium and cobalt and also clik so they shouldn't take much minding from now on.....haven't weaned yet though

hi rancher

your right, this fec testing will have to become part of the game, i bought a DIY kit but havent had the time to set it up yet

on the other issue can you get a bolus to do the 3 minerals (iodine selenium and cobalt) or are they giving separately?

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

hi rancher

your right, this fec testing will have to become part of the game, i bought a DIY kit but havent had the time to set it up yet

on the other issue can you get a bolus to do the 3 minerals (iodine selenium and cobalt) or are they giving separately?

You have to give two boluses to get that into them, but you can put the two into the gun together so its only one dose,

rancher

razor8 wrote: »

hi rancher

your right, this fec testing will have to become part of the game, i bought a DIY kit but havent had the time to set it up yet

on the other issue can you get a bolus to do the 3 minerals (iodine selenium and cobalt) or are they giving separately?

Looks like dosing for worms is coming to an end, saw this on forum4farming

''Saw this article from farmers weekly. Too good to be true ?

Sheep worm vaccine breakthrough
Kate Curran
Thursday 13 June 2013 14:52

Scientists have made a major breakthrough in the battle against worms by producing a vaccine to protect sheep from parasitic worm infection.

The vaccine developed by the Moredun Research Institute is the most successful attempt yet to protect animals against worms.

The approach taken by Moredun involved identifying a number of key proteins which the worm produced. By immunising sheep with these key proteins, vaccinated animals were found to have significantly reduced numbers of adult worms.

The findings come at a time when worm resistance is high on the agenda of many farmers and the government. Commenting on the development, Dr Alasdair Nisbet said: "Currently, these pathogens are controlled using drugs. However, multi-drug resistant isolates are being reported with such frequency that development of a vaccine against this species is now a research priority."

sea12

Username John wrote: »

Hi Razor,

How are you doing? How are your lambs getting on this year?

I am afraid I don't have any answers or advice for you...

But I will tell you what I did, maybe it will help...

I got a FEC done around start May, my lambs were about
7 weeks-ish then. Results came back positive for Coccidia, but no nemotodirus. So I dosed them with Vecoxan (expensive stuff)

I kept an eye on em then, and weighed em around once a week or so, and they were doing very well... til last week, weighed em and wasn't happy with their performance... And there is one or two dirty...
Now - I think I screwed up, I should have dosed em maybe a week ago or more... :mad:

So I am going to dose em with a white drench this evening or tomorrow.

My worry is that they are a bit old now for a white drench (~12 weeks) as I have read that lambs 6 - 12 weeks are the ones at risk of nemotodirus, and I think white drench is kinda useless for any sort of worms.
But - I am going to go in with it anyways....

I will also give em some cobalt if I have time, if not, will give it to them at the weekend. I have given them cobalt already, as we seem to be low in it here. I just use straight cobalt, not the B12 or Selenium stuff...

So - like I said, no answers, in fact maybe more questions... :rolleyes:

John what's involved in sending the sample. And where do u send it to. I would like to do the same as although my lambs are dosed they are not thriving this year at all.

razor8

rancher wrote: »

Looks like dosing for worms is coming to an end, saw this on forum4farming

''Saw this article from farmers weekly. Too good to be true ?

Sheep worm vaccine breakthrough
Kate Curran
Thursday 13 June 2013 14:52

Scientists have made a major breakthrough in the battle against worms by producing a vaccine to protect sheep from parasitic worm infection.

The vaccine developed by the Moredun Research Institute is the most successful attempt yet to protect animals against worms.

The approach taken by Moredun involved identifying a number of key proteins which the worm produced. By immunising sheep with these key proteins, vaccinated animals were found to have significantly reduced numbers of adult worms.

The findings come at a time when worm resistance is high on the agenda of many farmers and the government. Commenting on the development, Dr Alasdair Nisbet said: "Currently, these pathogens are controlled using drugs. However, multi-drug resistant isolates are being reported with such frequency that development of a vaccine against this species is now a research priority."

that would be some breakthrough, just telling my father and he said that they had one for fluke before but it never caught on/worked

very interesting!

Wooly Admirer

http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingsectors/sheepandgoats/stap2013/requirementsforstaptask3300513.pdf

Dept have release a comprehensive guideline to FEC for STAP.

OneKerry

I have seen a number of lambs die this year from what I believe is pulpy kidney. The mothers were vaccinated with Covexin 8 well prior to lambing.
The lambs were vaccinated at 1 month of age. They are mountain lambs hence I would have thought would be less likely to pulpy kidney.
Has anyone had similar problems this year?

rangler1

OneKerry wrote: »

I have seen a number of lambs die this year from what I believe is pulpy kidney. The mothers were vaccinated with Covexin 8 well prior to lambing.
The lambs were vaccinated at 1 month of age. They are mountain lambs hence I would have thought would be less likely to pulpy kidney.
Has anyone had similar problems this year?

Did you get a post mortem done.
Did the lambs die before or after vaccinating, as far as i know you're not supposed to vaccinate lambs from vaccinated ewes until eight weeks

Green farmer

rancher wrote: »

''Saw this article from farmers weekly. Too good to be true ?

Scientists have made a major breakthrough in the battle against worms by producing a vaccine to protect sheep from parasitic worm infection.

The vaccine developed by the Moredun Research Institute is the most successful attempt yet to protect animals against worms.

The approach taken by Moredun involved identifying a number of key proteins which the worm produced. By immunising sheep with these key proteins, vaccinated animals were found to have significantly reduced numbers of adult worms.

I know it's an old thread , but anything more ever come from this ?

rangler1

Green farmer wrote: »

I know it's an old thread , but anything more ever come from this ?

I think it was for hummungus, a worm we don't have in Jreland....as you say a long time ago.
it'd be great if it happened for all worms

OneKerry

I await the post mortem on the lambs. I did vaccinate after 1 month so maybe too early... My vet did not tell me this of course.

rangler1

OneKerry wrote: »

I await the post mortem on the lambs. I did vaccinate after 1 month so maybe too early... My vet did not tell me this of course.

I think it's written on the box or leaflet,even with the ewes not vaccinated you can't vaccinate until they're a month old.
Was it after vaccinating that they died, although that's the age they get pulpy kidney

OneKerry

They were vaccinated 2 weeks or so before I lost 4 lambs, all good thriving lambs. They were the month old when I vaccinated.
Sickening to loose lambs at that age

rangler1

OneKerry wrote: »

They were vaccinated 2 weeks or so before I lost 4 lambs, all good thriving lambs. They were the month old when I vaccinated.
Sickening to loose lambs at that age

PM will shed some light on it,

kk.man

OMG I injected 5 or 6 today at 1 month old approx!!!

With regard to worm resistance...I have used ivomec classic injection...great results..less interval dosing also..vet told me

rangler1

kk.man wrote: »

OMG I injected 5 or 6 today at 1 month old approx!!!

With regard to worm resistance...I have used ivomec classic injection...great results..less interval dosing also..vet told me

very seldom vaccinate lambs here, maybe one year in five i'd have to do the last 25% of the lambs in October, I'd always wait for two or three to die

When there;s cattle on the farm too, there's far less of a worm problem, if you were FEC testing you mightn't need to dose at all, we test for plenty of mixed farmers that'd have 80% of their lambs gone before they need a dose.......maybe carrying 1 ewe/acre through the cattle

OneKerry

I carry cattle and sheep on the farm and only have a minor problem with worms alright.
What is the cost of the Ivomec injection per head for lambs? Would use if it was cost effective and worm effective.