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Child Item

Children and Boxing/MMA

FTA69

As some of you may know, a Portuguese fighter called Joao Carvalho recently died as a result of trauma he received in a Dublin MMA event and I'm led to believe there was much pontificating on Joe Duffy about how the sport was awful and how it should be banned and how children participating in it was awful and sure weren't they spurred on by that McGregor fella etc etc etc. It's generally a line I've heard many times when the subject of boxing or combat sports comes up and I was wondering would people here consider it barbaric and what their perspectives on children participating in these sports would be?

I'm a fighter and coach myself and work with children in a deprived part of London and to be honest, I see it as a vital and valuable outlet for the kids I work with and something which benefits them enormously. It aids in their fitness, confidence and discipline and also has a positive effect on other aspects of their life such as their education. It also provides them with a semblance of structure some don't get at home and an introduction to other cultures and people of different backgrounds.

However I've also had people say to me that it's a form of child abuse and the usual sh*te. Would parents here have a problem with their kids boxing?

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[Deleted User]

LexieOnRale wrote: »

The awkward moment when Taxs 5 year old could prob beat me to a pulp

I dunno, mma - very aggressive. Wouldn't be into letting kids take part

Hah I am more worried about them beating ME - because at least I have a head start - but kids take to it so fast and I only took it up around 8 or 9 years ago. I fully expect them to excel me at some point. Then I will just buy a few bottles of wine - sit listening to garth brooks sing "The night I called the old man out" on repeat - and just give up on life

But the point of MMA is the first M. "mixed". So it is an impossible question to answer easily. There are aspects of MMA I would be keen to get my kids into - and aspects of it I do not look forward to at all.

But combat training in kids is not even about combat. For kids it is about finding their limits and pushing them - discovering what they can do with their body and how - and learning to temper the boundless energy of youth and directing it towards specific goals. It really is good for them on just about every level you can imagine.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

I want my kids to play with butterflies and flowers, and make me pictures with lots of glitter, not kick seven shades of shyte out of each other like Kung Fu panda

[Deleted User]

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I want my kids to play with butterflies and flowers, and make me pictures with lots of glitter, not kick seven shades of shyte out of each other like Kung Fu panda

Hah my kids do that too. I wrote awhile ago (God actually now I think about it it might be over a year) of the night we watched a flower bloom together. The whole family just sat around this flower (a breed known for flowering very quickly in the morning) and watched it struggle open before our eyes. It takes about 25 minutes.

And my daughter despite the young age she was at the time sat and watched the whole thing with amazing patience. She loved it - but she was restful and relaxed too. I put a lot of that down to her combat and vipassana training.

And I found her the other morning looking after two worms and taking them from the concrete to the grass where they could save themselves. But she also put one on a leaf and one on a piece of plastic. When I asked her why she answered "I just want to see which one would get there quicker - maybe the plastic stops them smelling where the ground is - they have no eyes!" so she is also very scientific minded.

And today she was brushing the hair of her doll getting it ready for her wedding day.

So she seem to be working on all levels so far

I am interested to see which one she might lose interest first.

That_Guy

smash wrote: »

I've just heard that in Ireland st least MMA is not r

ecognised as a sport and is self funding. As such it does not have a regulatory system and neither the minister for health and safety or minister for sport can get involved in the incident. What I'd like to know now are the legalities involved and who is official responsible for the death?

SAFE MMA run a lot of events here and in the UK. They followed all the protocols correctly.

This is just a freak accident. SAFE MMA are independent regulators for here and the UK.

The organisation now works to advise the Board of the United Kingdom Mixed Martial Arts Federation in the UK and alongside the Irish Amateur Pankration Association in Ireland, as Safe MMA -Ireland

https://safemmauk.wordpress.com/about/

smash

That_Guy wrote: »

SAFE MMA run a lot of events here and in the UK. They followed all the protocols correctly.

This is just a freak accident. SAFE MMA are independent regulators for here and the UK.

https://safemmauk.wordpress.com/about/

You better phone newstalk because they stated, along with a member of some martial arts organisation that there is no recognised regulatory body for MMA in Ireland.

I'd also state that there's no "freak accidents" when there's a death resulting from a beating.

Gatling

smash wrote: »

You better phone newstalk because they stated, along with a member of some martial arts organisation that there is no recognised regulatory body for MMA in Ireland.

But they do have standards when it comes to safety they had doctors and paramedics at ring side for the event at the national stadium,
The fighter in question received immediate medical care the moment he said he felt unwell .

We've had more deaths in a soccer the last ten years than in mma

lazza14

Havent read through the thread, but I will say when I went to school in a rough part of Dublin the kids that did boxing were sound, they had nothing to proove by starting random fights - the bullies that did that were insecure idiots that had to proove something.

So the argument that kids shouldn´t do it as it makes them more violent is bollix, it makes them more disciplined and confident.

Not sure about MMA tho, as boxing is very protected, maybe MMA should have more regulations - then again its a new sport , so it will evolve I guess.

Dick phelan

I'd much rather my kids box or do MMA then want to play Rugby or if we were American, American Football. One thing i will say as a boxing fan i thought it was a crazy decision to remove the head gear in amateur boxing for over 18s, one thing taking if off elite level fighters but now a novice who maybe has taken up boxing at College or whatever can't wear a headguard because he's over 18.

NIMAN

Maybe I am old skool, but for some reason I'd feel ok with my child boxing but I wouldn't be happy with them doing MMA

I appreciate boxing has a history of a lot of damaged people but considering how long it's been a sport and how many have competed over the years, the chances of damage are quite low.

MMA however scares me. It is just so much more violent and allows attacks in the rules that are more likely to do serious damage to the human body.

Dick phelan

Na i can't agree that MMA is worse then boxing, it does appear worse because you can hit opponents when they are down ect, reality is in terms of actual damage received and potential danger MMA is no worse then boxing. Disagree that boxing doesn't get a hard time like MMA does, Very recently Nick Blackwell suffered a serious injury in a fight and it was major news in all the papers and i saw tons of people saying how barbaric boxing is ect, the very same weekend 3 cyclists died during a race the coverage was nowhere near the same. Loads of sports are dangerous the likes of boxing and MMA just appear moreso because of their nature, do more people actually get badly hurt in MMA then playing Rugby, American Football, F1, Horse Racing ect.

smash

Gatling wrote: »

But they do have standards when it comes to safety they had doctors and paramedics at ring side for the event at the national stadium, The fighter in question received immediate medical care the moment he said he felt unwell .

We've had more deaths in a soccer the last ten years than in mma

A standard doesn't equate to a regulation

hefferboi

Without turning this into MMA v Boxing, look at retired boxers and compare them to retired MMA fighters. I saw a documentary on Ali a few years ago and almost all the ex boxers who gave interviews had a speech problem or were in wheelchairs due to their progression. I don't think I've ever seen the same problems in retired MMA fighters.

However I'd let my kids do both and I'd be delighted if they wanted to take it up but I'd prefer if they chose MMA.

smash

hefferboi wrote: »

Without turning this into MMA v Boxing, look at retired boxers and compare them to retired MMA fighters. I saw a documentary on Ali a few years ago and almost all the ex boxers who gave interviews had a speech problem or were in wheelchairs due to their progression. I don't think I've ever seen the same problems in retired MMA fighters.

Has it even been around long enough to have enough retired fighters to show the signs of brain trauma?

toptom

It should be banned in Ireland now after that mans death, far too risky and dangerous for kids and violent sports send a bad mesage to kids anyway.

hefferboi

smash wrote: »

Has it even been around long enough to have enough retired fighters to show the signs of brain trauma?

A quick Google shows its been around for 35 years. Nowhere near boxing but still enough to have a fair idea.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Almost every single sport has some risk attached to it.

Rugby,American Football ,Ice Hockey have issues with concussion.

Heading of the ball has been banned in underage soccer in the USA because of the risk of long term brain damage.

Basically every sport with any sort of physical contact is somewhat dangerous. Maybe we were better off not knowing about all this stuff as I'd fear in the future there'll be **** all sports with physical contact will be completely diluted from what they were meant to be due to the risk of injury.

tritium

toptom wrote: »

It should be banned in Ireland now after that mans death, far too risky and dangerous for kids and violent sports send a bad mesage to kids anyway.

OK so you want us to ban rugby, hurling, cycling (3 deaths in Belgium! Won't someone think of the children!) Gaelic football (gouges, stamps, sneaky punches), motor racing, ...

What other ones?

smash

hefferboi wrote: »

A quick Google shows its been around for 35 years. Nowhere near boxing but still enough to have a fair idea.

A quick Google shows that 35 years ago there were tough guy competitions that were outlawed within 3 years and MMA didn't come about until 1993, but only got popular within the last decade.

Cienciano

JustTheOne wrote: »

Wasn't there 3 cyclists killed in some competition, one being Irish?

We should ban cycling.

No, it's only stuff Joe Duffy doesn't understand or like that's to be banned.

That_Guy

toptom wrote: »

It should be banned in Ireland now after that mans death, far too risky and dangerous for kids and violent sports send a bad mesage to kids anyway.

You're entitled to your opinion of course but martial arts promotes a really disciplined and healthy lifestyle. I can't compete myself due to medical reasons but before my local MMA gym closed down, I was able to train and it was a really friendly family feel to it.

Everyone had each others backs and helped with technique/diet etc. Unfortunately where I am, we don't have an MMA gym anymore.

Whatever about in ring competition, martial arts as a concept is a really fun and healthy lifestyle that I would encourage anybody to try.

smash

That_Guy wrote: »

Whatever about in ring competition, martial arts as a concept is a really fun and healthy lifestyle that I would encourage anybody to try.

Yes but nobody is disputing the benefits of involvement in clubs and training. We're talking about people beating the living shít out of each other.

Gatling

smash wrote: »

A quick Google shows that 35 years ago

Goes back alot longer in various forms the popular ones in the west 30-40 + years maybe but mixed martial Arts such as kung fu vs wrestlers vs kick boxers vs Vale tudo vs boxing has been around forever at this stage .

[Deleted User]

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Almost every single sport has some risk attached to it.

Rugby,American Football ,Ice Hockey have issues with concussion.

And indeed lawn bowling carries the risk of social sterility

Possibly the worst and hardest to reverse sterility of all!

That_Guy

smash wrote: »

Yes but nobody is disputing the benefits of involvement in clubs and training. We're talking about people beating the living shít out of each other.

People take issue with fights going to the canvas in MMA and once they see that they deem it as barbaric.

It does look bad of course but referees are trained in MMA for the most part and understand the varying positions and know when a fighter is not deemed to be intelligently defending themselves.

What happened over the weekend is a tragedy but until a post-mortem is carried out we can't say that these punches to the head were entirely at fault. The fighter in question looked to be defending himself (hand up protecting the side of his head which is the correct way to defend yourself in this position. Obviously the referee stopped the fight as he didn't improve his position.
This is normal in all MMA fights.

Take the Nick Blackwell/Eubank Jr fight in comparison.

While boxing is obviously different, Blackwell still took heavy unanswered shots and the fight was called 2 rounds too late in my eyes. In my view, Blackwell took a hell of lot more punishment than the MMA fight over the weekend. The only reason boxing wasn't chastised as much is because it never went to the mat.

Two different sports as I say but the ref/cornermen should have stopped it sooner as it was clear to everybody watching that he was eating uppercut after uppercut without reply.

The risk in combat sports is great but MMA is a completely different ball game but from what I can see the promotion/referees/fighters followed every protocol outlined by SAFE MMA

What happened was an unfortunate tragedy and the outcry of emotion/generosity from the MMA community is really incredible.

It's been a difficult couple of weeks for combat sports fans/fighters.

smash

Gatling wrote: »

Goes back alot longer in various forms the popular ones in the west 30-40 + years maybe but mixed martial Arts such as kung fu vs wrestlers vs kick boxers vs Vale tudo vs boxing has been around forever at this stage .

And that's not MMA as we know it. Sure you could go back to hand-to-hand combat in the Roman era of you really wanted to.

That_Guy wrote: »

People take issue with fights going to the canvas in MMA and once they see that they deem it as barbaric.

I think it's more than that. It's the blunt force head trauma and the inevitable volume of blood resulting from an MMA fight. I know it's never as much as you think, but it's gruesome and it's an element that the organisations play on.

Halloween Jack

hefferboi wrote: »

Without turning this into MMA v Boxing, look at retired boxers and compare them to retired MMA fighters. I saw a documentary on Ali a few years ago and almost all the ex boxers who gave interviews had a speech problem or were in wheelchairs due to their progression. I don't think I've ever seen the same problems in retired MMA fighters.

However I'd let my kids do both and I'd be delighted if they wanted to take it up but I'd prefer if they chose MMA.

Some (though not all) of those issues have been addressed, cutting the number of rounds down from 15 to 12 and referees being much more proactive generally in stopping fights etc... That being said there are plenty of guys you don't hear about who make their money sparring who get cut up pretty bad I believe.

Regarding mma and kids, I'm not sure how useful or desirable it is that they be taught how to choke people to unconsciousness etc. I don't have a problem with the sport per se, but not for me really and I wouldn't like my kids involved.

arybvtcw0eolkf

smash wrote: »

And that's not MMA as we know it. S.

As YOU know it, Smash. But that's exactly what MMA is.

You're confusing MMA with UFC ~ UFC is a brand, not a sport or a style and its a brand that most people are familiar with. But what that poster listed is exactly what MMA is.

MMA is ever evolving.

Out of respect for a fallen fighter I'm not getting involved in the mire this thread has become (most of you don't know what you're talking about and you're guessing at crap).

A young man died, happens in all sports. Its a tough and bitter pill for us all to swallow.

Why have I chosen to reply to Smash, because I like you. I like your opinions on most things, but today you're wrong. You're very wrong, and you're wrong to speak from a point of ignorance of a sport you're completely ignorant to.

That said, I understand that the death of anyone is unpalatable to you & rightly so.

Someone else here said he's training BJJ nine years and teaches his two and five year old self defense techniques ~ I'm calling BS on that one.

There's a whole community of us in mourning tonight, some of us are around this a very long time and have heard every crack pot idea & argument, both good and bad.

If anyone would like to do something positive tonight, remember that an athlete has died doing something he was passionate about. He has a family, club, friends & supporters mourning his death.

There are various ways to donate to his family to help ease their burden over the next while, my chosen charity is a GOFUNDME page set up earlier today.

Some of you here have the bit between your teeth and will argue your BS points to the death here (sorry an awful word but I'm lost for another right now) and will ignore my post, but take it as you wish.. I wish you all the best regardless whatever side of the debate you fall under.

João Carvalho ~ R.I.P.

That_Guy

smash wrote: »

I think it's more than that. t's the blunt force head trauma and the inevitable volume of blood resulting from an MMA fight. I know it's never as much as you think, but it's gruesome and it's an element that the organisations play on.

To be honest, I don't personally notice the blood when it does appear. It's really just a part of combat sports and I've never taken heed to it unless of course it's just dripping everywhere.

In these instances, it's hard not to be drawn to it because it does affect a fighter in how they grapple/see. Referees in MMA are allowed to pause fights and bring in doctors to ensure that cuts aren't too bad or if fighters are deemed to be able to continue.

If they can't, based on the doctor's guidance, they stop the fight.

To some it can be gruesome but it's an element to combat sports.

As for organisations "playing off it".... I can't agree with that at all. I've not seen a single promo or poster in MMA that promotes bouts based on blood. Unless they're speaking of "bad blood between the two fighters" etc.

smash

Lindsey Old Cross wrote: »

Why have I chosen to reply to Smash, because I like you. I like your opinions on most things, but today you're wrong. You're very wrong, and you're wrong to speak from a point of ignorance of a sport you're completely ignorant to..

But I'm not. When I was younger I trained in Judo, then Kempo, then shotokan and then some kickboxing. I participated in controlled sparring but I didn't compete. My son who's 11 does however compete. I'm not concerned right now because at his age there's no hitting above the shoulders and the points based system works. I would however be concerned if in future he wanted to compete in events that mixed the arts when he's coming from a single discipline where fighting is stopped when a point is gained. To me, MMA as it's currently known through the rise of UFC just looks like scrapping because inevitably pitting disciplines against each other will turn to a brawl.

Lindsey Old Cross wrote: »

There's a whole community of us in mourning tonight, some of us are around this a very long time and have heard every crack pot idea & argument, both good and bad.

To me, the best thing the community can do is lobby for proper regulations and a review of the rules so this does not happen again. Think about the death of Senna in F1. It was a wake up call and the organisation did a complete overhaul of the safety regulations to minimise the risk going forward. And it worked.

RedemptionZ

smash wrote: »

To me, MMA as it's currently known through the rise of UFC just looks like scrapping because inevitably pitting disciplines against each other will turn to a brawl.

.

That's just complete ignorance. Looks like scrapping.... Don't know what pubs you've been hanging around where everyone can pass guard and submit each other when they're scrapping after last call but I assure you that the vast majority of 'scraps' are very different than that of an MMA fight that you would see in the UFC. It's extremely skilled and has evolved into what is essentially its own discipline.