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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

BluntGuy

The new M20 motorway inbetween Cork and Limerick. I've heard that there are many people that feel it's rather unnecessary considering the traffic volume.

I personally believe if they're going to upgrade the N20 route, they may as well use the safest long-term solution, which of course is a direct motorway link. But what do you all think?

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GDSGR8

They should build an M24 to Cahir, or thereabouts - hey presto, you have a motorway between Limerick and Cork and a motorway halfway to Waterford.

KCAccidental

GDSGR8 wrote: »

They should build an M24 to Cahir, or thereabouts - hey presto, you have a motorway between Limerick and Cork and a motorway halfway to Waterford.

I invite you to read back through the thread for the many, many reasons why the M24 would be unsuitable.

GDSGR8

KCAccidental wrote: »

I invite you to read back through the thread for the many, many reasons why the M24 would be unsuitable.

No, can't be bothered. They're unlikely to be many valid reasons anyway. Provide a bullet point summary if you like.

Sam Russell

GDSGR8 wrote: »

No, can't be bothered. They're unlikely to be many valid reasons anyway. Provide a bullet point summary if you like.

Mod: Can we have a little higher level of dialogue. If you can't be bothered, then do not be bothered posting.

marno21

GDSGR8 wrote: »

No, can't be bothered. They're unlikely to be many valid reasons anyway. Provide a bullet point summary if you like.

If you can't be bothered to look up the counter arguments to your argument I don't see why you are posting at all

The topography for this route would be far from ideal. It's very mountainous.

Also, this would be an Irish solution to an Irish problem. A half arsed one. This route doesn't overcome the fact that a lot of the N20 traffic is not direct Cork - Limerick traffic. It's of no use for Charleville - Limerick and Mallow - Cork traffic for example. The route above doesn't have any towns on it so the population around there wouldn't benefit, as they already have the fit for purpose R513, even with the trucks (Aldi).

This route also wouldn't solve the need for bypasses of Charleville, Buttevant and Mallow, or the existing safety issues such as the Ballybeg bends, or the bends southbound just after the Croom bypass ends and the road narrows. Mallow to Cork needs dualling regardless, the AADT is excess of 15000. An 'M513' would not solve this issue.

Also, feeding all M20 through traffic directly into the Dunkettle interchange is a complete no-no. Perhaps if the Cork North Ring Road was completed it may be feasible but the Dunkettle interchange is already over-capacity and adding M20 through traffic into it is out of the question

Chris_5339762

marno21 wrote: »

Also, feeding all M20 through traffic directly into the Dunkettle interchange is a complete no-no. Perhaps if the Cork North Ring Road was completed it may be feasible but the Dunkettle interchange is already over-capacity and adding M20 through traffic into it is out of the question

I'd agree with everything except this. Dunkettle is overcapacity, of course, but having an M20 in isolation and just dumping all M20 traffic into the current setup at Blackpool will be a disaster.

The CNRR really has to be built in tandem with the M20, and we'll assume Dunkettle has to be upgraded before then.

hans aus dtschl

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I'd agree with everything except this. Dunkettle is overcapacity, of course, but having an M20 in isolation and just dumping all M20 traffic into the current setup at Blackpool will be a disaster.

The CNRR really has to be built in tandem with the M20, and we'll assume Dunkettle has to be upgraded before then.

I don't disagree with anything you've written here, but just pointing out that discussion of CNRR before anyone at a government level even acknowledges the dire situation of the M20 is possibly a bad way to go.

Chris_5339762

Not as crazy as you'd think... when originally the M20 was to be split into two PPPs (before it all got canned), the M20 North PPP was also to include an Adare bypass and the M20 South PPP was also to include the CNRR from M20 to M8.

Sadly, nothing happened

AugustusMinimus

I just don't understand why this road isn't built piecemeal. Bypass Buttevant and Charleville now and leave the rest until funding is better.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

zulutango

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

When it comes to motorway planning, it's really quite ridiculous using existing traffic volumes as a reason not to build them, yet this was Paschal O'Donoghue's primary excuse for mothballing the project. The sooner he is gone the better.

Shurwhynot

With this review of the Capital Expenditure plan happening next year supposedly, it is surely now or never for this road.

I'm not a political man, but the attitudes of Varadkar and Donohue over the past couple of years have really turned me against Fine Gael

Vanquished

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I just don't understand why this road isn't built piecemeal. Bypass Buttevant and Charleville now and leave the rest until funding is better.

The distance of the preferred route corridor from the existing road makes the tie-ins a bit awkward. The most straightforward stretch from this point of view would be from the southern tip of the Croom bypass to south of Mallow. It could also terminate north of the town at a junction with the proposed relief road but that would probably just lead to increased congestion on the existing N20 "bypass".

Shurwhynot wrote: »

With this review of the Capital Expenditure plan happening next year supposedly, it is surely now or never for this road.

I'm not a political man, but the attitudes of Varadkar and Donohue over the past couple of years have really turned me against Fine Gael

Fine Gaels attitude towards capital investment in transport generally has really disappointed and annoyed me. The pathetic and misguided decisions to cull DART undergound and to not even proceed with the planning and design of the M20 are inexplicable!

zulutango

Same for me. I would personally have favoured a FG government (over FF at least) but the M20 decision and Paschal O'Donoghue in particular has really shown them up to be very short sighted.

hans aus dtschl

Well especially when they could have just put them on the long finger, rather than killed them completely.

Sam Russell

Mod: Less of the politics please. Think M20 - Cork to Limerick.

marno21

With the Dairygold expansion on the cards the Mallow Chamber of Commerce have been in the news again today expressing how much this is needed and putting political pressure to get it done, not sure how successful it'll be.

Vanquished wrote: »

The distance of the preferred route corridor from the existing road makes the tie-ins a bit awkward. The most straightforward stretch from this point of view would be from the southern tip of the Croom bypass to south of Mallow. It could also terminate north of the town at a junction with the proposed relief road but that would probably just lead to increased congestion on the existing N20 "bypass".

You are then dualling the quietest parts of the road and both approaches to cities would be single carraigeway. As Mallow-Cork carries more traffic proportionally to the Mallow-Croom section it needs doing as urgently as the rest of the scheme. Croom - Patrickwell is the easiest bit as it's only 6/7km and the landtake is already done for the Croom BP bit. The only awkward bit is constucting the alternative route and the tie in with what will be the M21.

dr.fuzzenstein

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: Less of the politics please. Think M20 - Cork to Limerick.

Well, it is a political decision. It is difficult to debate this road and completely ignore the politics behind it.

spacetweek

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

I just don't understand why this road isn't built piecemeal. Bypass Buttevant and Charleville now and leave the rest until funding is better.

I think the reason is because they want to do it as a PPP and you can't do that piecemeal.
That, and the fact that pretty much every part of the route is urgently needed, make it hard to choose parts to build piecemeal.

cjpm

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, it is a political decision. It is difficult to debate this road and completely ignore the politics behind it.

Perhaps a particular politician prefers to prioritise projects in the pale?

It can't be built peace meal as the planning was due to be done all at once. If planning was granted all the CPO'd land would have to be purchased within I think 18 months.

Let's say one third of the scheme was put to planning - there would be uproar from people in the other 2/3rds.

cjpm wrote:

Perhaps a particular politician prefers to prioritise projects in the pale?

The problem is it fell behind the m17/18 and m11/n25 chemes in the planning/design process (due to objections?). These were ready to go when funding became available again.

Chris_5339762

It wasn't classed as an Interurban back in the day (m6,7,8,9 and 1 were), doesn't contain notorious bottlenecks (like New Ross) and isn't in the west where politics rules (no more to be said about that). It just fell under all these things at once so got delayed, then the economy tanked and although they tried to do it via two PPPs, the government couldn't afford the CPOs so it got mothballed.

cjpm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

It wasn't classed as an Interurban back in the day (m6,7,8,9 and 1 were), doesn't contain notorious bottlenecks (like New Ross) and isn't in the west where politics rules (no more to be said about that). It just fell under all these things at once so got delayed, then the economy tanked and although they tried to do it via two PPPs, the government couldn't afford the CPOs so it got mothballed.

My reading of it is....

FG and Labour were so sure that they'd get into power for another 5 years that they decided to cancel it until at least 2017 so that they wouldn't have to come up with the cash for the CPO's during their second term in office.

The CPO is the biggest cost as it is paid all at once. The cost for the planning is small change in the overall scheme. And the actual building cost can be spread over 30 years with the PPP company.

If they had thought that FF would be in power when the CPO's had to be paid out, it would be FF's problem to come up with the cash, and would have suited FG and Lab just fine.

Irish_rat

I know it's frowned upon to bring politics into this but with the impending minority founding, we will start to see this project mentioned more often. FF will be pushing this hard under Martin.

I'd agree with the philosophy of building it and they will come. Definitely fits that bill. The economic importance of the M20 is on a very large scale now and is only going to trend upwards in the future. It was not so much years ago but with the other motorways finished, the N20 stands out like a real sore thumb.

O'Donoghue is not fit for purpose and is just really a puppet in the big scheme of things. Varadkar snowballed the planning and basically gave it a 10 year backburner.

Vanquished

marno21 wrote: »

You are then dualling the quietest parts of the road and both approaches to cities would be single carraigeway. As Mallow-Cork carries more traffic proportionally to the Mallow-Croom section it needs doing as urgently as the rest of the scheme. Croom - Patrickwell is the easiest bit as it's only 6/7km and the landtake is already done for the Croom BP bit. The only awkward bit is constucting the alternative route and the tie in with what will be the M21.

You appear to be forgetting about the 10km stretch of motorway from Attyflin to Rossbrien and indeed the dual carriageway from Blarney to Blackpool. We know that all the single carriageway sections of the N20 need to be replaced/upgraded but the Mallow to Cork stretch was pretty much all built from scratch in the last 25/30 years and is still a road of adequate quality that handles traffic fairly effectively. It's alignment is modern with good sighlines along with overtaking lanes, climbing lanes etc. Indeed much of the corridor is to be re-used and reconfigured to motorway standard under the M20 plan.

Contrast this then with the primitive, substandard, archaic alignment of the N20 from the end of the Croom bypass to just north of Mallow. Narrow, twisty, poor sightlines, few safe overtaking opportunities and of course the presence of numerous towns and villages on the route. The replacement of this horrendous, embarrassingly obsolete donkey and cart track should be the priority. Relatively modern stretches such as Mallow to Blarney and Croom to Attyflin should play second fiddle to this.

Shurwhynot

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/lopsided-growth-is-hurting-munster-and-is-unfair-392268.html

draiochtanois

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boardsuser1

The N20 is probably my most hated road in the country because of large traffic volumes. Given the the Blarney to Mallow section had some works carried out on it in the last quarter of 2015 means that this road/motorway isn't important for now.

hans aus dtschl

draiochtanois wrote: »

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Your reading of it isn't unreasonable, but the wider point (not well made) is a valid one, IMO.

We have a choice:
We can keep hoping Dublin can fund the entire economy and parachute money to the rest of the country.
We can try and build an economic counterweight (or more than one?) to Dublin.
The M20 is a really critical piece of infrastructure. Above linking trade in two cities, it gives Limerick companies the choice of two ports, Cork companies the choice of two airports, etc. Not to mention having a larger commuter population and choice of two universities. As far as business is concerned, this road would be a really serious advantage. The two cities would be less than an hour apart, rather than the current 1.5 - 2 hours.

draiochtanois

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