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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

Hammer Archer

New thread continued from here.

Welcome to the Waterford GAA discussion thread.

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***EDIT (20/11/2015): Quite frankly I'm getting a bit sick of the thread regularly descending into tit for tat insults between posters. From now on, it won't be a card but a ban straight away for anything like this. The mod warning is clear in the first post but yet people still ignore it.
Also, I'd like to remind people of the ban on discussing players'/managers'/officials' private lives without any substance. You can be getting into libelous territory there. So a zero tolerance policy will be enforced as well.

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tomwaterford

courtylad wrote: »

Not really a brick, a legend, he'll be remembered but not like brick. Brick is one of the best XV in history of waterford hurling.

WTF???

Brick is a good hard working player very committed and a good example of someone who gives their all and reached the limits of his talent

But he is nowhere near the best 15 in the history of waterford hurling

courtylad

tomwaterford wrote: »

WTF???

Brick is a good hard working player very committed and a good example of someone who gives their all and reached the limits of his talent

But he is nowhere near the best 15 in the history of waterford hurling

Name the best fifteen by yourself so.

courtylad

Were down by three points in the minor game 1-8 to 0-14

Speak Now

Cake Man wrote: »

I very much doubt it's the case that you can lose two games in Munster and still be in it. Beat Cork and it's straight into a semi final. Lose to Cork and it's a playoff (lose the play-off and that's surely curtains). But looking at the Munster fixtures page for the minor championship. it's fairly confusing. It would suggest that if we lost against Cork, we could also afford to lose again v Tipp and still have a game against the loser of Limerick & Clare. Doesn't add up.
http://munster.gaa.ie/fixtures/minor/

I wonder did they forget to put Kerry in there somewhere or misplace a number or something. In any case, beating Cork and straight into a semi final is just the easiest way to go.

So it's possible to lose 3 games in Munster and make an all Ireland semi?

tomwaterford

courtylad wrote: »

Name the best fifteen by yourself so.

For one I'd have hurlers who can use both hands to hurl and an ability to drive the ball more than 20 yards

Waterford hurling is in a shameful weak position if over the last 125+ years they haven't produced 15 who can do that

Not to knock the brick he's super at he deos....but Jesus he don't even try claim he's in the best 15 ever

courtylad

Speak Now wrote: »

So it's possible to lose 3 games in Munster and make an all Ireland semi?

Yes. Lose the quarter final your into the loser group 1. The winners go into the semi finals. The losers of group 1 play tipperary (note this will be tipperarys first match of the championship) they lose their out. We could have three matches before the semi final. Tipp play one and their out.

http:// munster.gaa.ie/fixtures/minor/

for more information check the link. Aint a typing issue, Kerry didnt field this year. Are fielding next year I think.

1-9 to 0-15 still three points down.

As I said last night, losing here will give management time to reassess the team and the way this game is going wont be a bad thing. Have two more matches to qualify if we dont rally.

courtylad

tomwaterford wrote: »

For one I'd have hurlers who can use both hands to hurl and an ability to drive the ball more than 20 yards

Waterford hurling is in a shameful weak position if over the last 125+ years they haven't produced 15 who can do that

Not to knock the brick he's super at he deos....but Jesus he don't even try claim he's in the best 15 ever

Unless you name fifteen better players in the history of waterford hurling do not comment back. I could name fifteen of the best footballers we ever had.

Speak Now

Cork won 0-17 to 1-10.

courtylad

Speak Now wrote: »

Cork won 0-17 to 1-10.

Predicted how it happen, where it'd happen and what they'd do. Fair play too our boys, two more games left at minimum, i think 3 started last year and Eoghan Murray came on. First game in the championship at minor is finding your feat and where needs to improve. Remember we lost the first game when we won the all-ireland. Will learn greatly from playing infront of a decent crowd.

Footballers next week against Kerry in Fraher. Anyone know whos Captain... Meant to be a Balinacourty player haven't heard yet though. That will be a tough game, going to be without Dean Kearns and Neil Montgomery for it who played last year, both hurlers co this year. Cathal Curran, Dylan Guiry, Conor Curran, Darragh McGrath will be the starting duals, may be one more. Hopefully we'll be competitive, not physically big enough, be interesting to see how David Nugent (The Nire) handles the size difference that will be there between our lads and the Kerry lads, a small team. Last two years them teams were the real deal. If they had a quarter of the time the hurles got they'd of won munster.

This years Kerry team has been referred to by Jack O' Connor as the Real Deal. Even though they won the last two all irelands in a row. Probably going to abit of the following:
1) ?
2) Liam Cooney (The Nire), 3) Jake Mulcahy (The Nire), 4 ?
5) Conor Curran (Ring), 6) Cathal Curran (Brickey Rangers), 7) Darragh McGrath (Balinacourty)
8) Maurice Daly (Brickey Rangers), 9) James Beresford (Balinacourty)
10) ? , 11) Dylan Guiry (The Nire), 12) ?
13) Ryan O' Neill (Brickey Rangers), 14) ? 15) ?

Say they are the definite's, will know more i say if i thought about it but it be off the top of my head. Going against Kerry were going to pack the backs, may have one or two from the forwards sweeping. Two in the half, two in the full, Leave the space to run the ball.

tomwaterford

courtylad wrote: »

Unless you name fifteen better players in the history of waterford hurling do not comment back. I could name fifteen of the best footballers we ever had.

15 better is easy....best 15 is a different story

Is there much logic in replying to someone who moves the goalposts though??

John Mullane
Eoin kelly
Ken McGrath
Fergal Hartley
Tony brown
Sean daly
Sean cullinane
Paul Flynn (among the best ever in skill levels IMO)
Austin gleeson already
Eoin Murphy-shamrocks
Johnny brenner ...DLS
Stephen frampton

This is before you go back to the 80s (before most my time)....but likes of pat McGrath,galvin,Jim green are all spoke highly of

Back to the all Ireland winning teams and If you can't pick a few more who could hurl off both hands well any video evidence suggests they could...afaik john Keane made GAA team of milleilum

(surly a minimum requirement to make all time best 15 is ability to hurl off both sides??)

Deise_2012

tomwaterford wrote: »

15 better is easy....best 15 is a different story

Is there much logic in replying to someone who moves the goalposts though??

John Mullane
Eoin kelly
Ken McGrath
Fergal Hartley
Tony brown
Sean daly
Sean cullinane
Paul Flynn (among the best ever in skill levels IMO)
Austin gleeson already
Eoin Murphy-shamrocks
Johnny brenner ...DLS
Stephen frampton

This is before you go back to the 80s (before most my time)....but likes of pat McGrath,galvin,Jim green are all spoke highly of

Back to the all Ireland winning teams and If you can't pick a few more who could hurl off both hands well any video evidence suggests they could...afaik john Keane made GAA team of milleilum

(surly a minimum requirement to make all time best 15 is ability to hurl off both sides??)

Austin Gleeson already....stop now.

Motivator

tomwaterford wrote: »

15 better is easy....best 15 is a different story

Is there much logic in replying to someone who moves the goalposts though??

John Mullane
Eoin kelly
Ken McGrath
Fergal Hartley
Tony brown
Sean daly
Sean cullinane
Paul Flynn (among the best ever in skill levels IMO)
Austin gleeson already
Eoin Murphy-shamrocks
Johnny brenner ...DLS
Stephen frampton

This is before you go back to the 80s (before most my time)....but likes of pat McGrath,galvin,Jim green are all spoke highly of

Back to the all Ireland winning teams and If you can't pick a few more who could hurl off both hands well any video evidence suggests they could...afaik john Keane made GAA team of milleilum

(surly a minimum requirement to make all time best 15 is ability to hurl off both sides??)

To be honest you could probably throw Noel Connors in as well, 2 time all star already in an incredibly competitive position. Don't think he's ever had a bad game for Waterford.

courtylad

tomwaterford wrote: »

15 better is easy....best 15 is a different story

Is there much logic in replying to someone who moves the goalposts though??

John Mullane
Eoin kelly
Ken McGrath
Fergal Hartley
Tony brown
Sean daly
Sean cullinane
Paul Flynn (among the best ever in skill levels IMO)
Austin gleeson already
Eoin Murphy-shamrocks
Johnny brenner ...DLS
Stephen frampton

This is before you go back to the 80s (before most my time)....but likes of pat McGrath,galvin,Jim green are all spoke highly of

Back to the all Ireland winning teams and If you can't pick a few more who could hurl off both hands well any video evidence suggests they could...afaik john Keane made GAA team of milleilum

(surly a minimum requirement to make all time best 15 is ability to hurl off both sides??)

1) Clinton Hennessy
2) Joe Harney, 3) Austin Flynn, 4) Noel Connors
5) Tony Browne, 6) Fergal Hartley, 7) ?
8) Michael "Brick" Walsh, 9) ?
10) Austin Gleeson, 11) Eoin Kelly, 12) Ken McGrath
13) John Mullane, 14) Dan Shanahan, 15) Paul Flynn

If you have a Player for the year would have to be included, hence Dan, cant fill in the other two. This team is disfactoring workrate

And the ability to run but more on natural ability and skill in that position.

courtylad

tomwaterford wrote: »

15 better is easy....best 15 is a different story

Is there much logic in replying to someone who moves the goalposts though??

John Mullane
Eoin kelly
Ken McGrath
Fergal Hartley
Tony brown
Sean daly
Sean cullinane
Paul Flynn (among the best ever in skill levels IMO)
Austin gleeson already
Eoin Murphy-shamrocks
Johnny brenner ...DLS
Stephen frampton

This is before you go back to the 80s (before most my time)....but likes of pat McGrath,galvin,Jim green are all spoke highly of

Back to the all Ireland winning teams and If you can't pick a few more who could hurl off both hands well any video evidence suggests they could...afaik john Keane made GAA team of milleilum

(surly a minimum requirement to make all time best 15 is ability to hurl off both sides??)

1) Clinton Hennessy
2) Joe Harney, 3) Austin Flynn, 4) Noel Connors
5) Tony Browne, 6) Fergal Hartley, 7) ?
8) Michael "Brick" Walsh, 9) ?
10) ?, 11) Eoin Kelly, 12) Ken McGrath
13) John Mullane, 14) Dan Shanahan, 15) Paul Flynn

If you have a Player for the year would have to be included, hence Dan, cant fill in the other two. This team is disfactoring workrate

And the ability to run but more on natural ability and skill in that position.

mountgomery burns

There is no way a 3 time all star is not one of the best 15 hurlers Waterford have ever had.

In fact, no way he is not even in the top 10. Wouldn't be in my top 5 though.

Who had more skill, Eoin Kelly or Brick. Eoin Kelly hands down.

Who would I rather have in my team? Brick every day, of every week, of every year, ever.

courtylad

mountgomery burns wrote: »

There is no way a 3 time all star is not one of the best 15 hurlers Waterford have ever had.

In fact, no way he is not even in the top 10. Wouldn't be in my top 5 though.

Who had more skill, Eoin Kelly or Brick. Eoin Kelly hands down.

Who would I rather have in my team? Brick every day, of every week, of every year, ever.

And why would you want him in any team? Cause when push comes to shove be it a Munster final or an Al series match against the likes of Tipp, kilkenny, Cork, Limerick, Galway, when you needed a man to step up, make the big catch to turn the momentum, break a hurley off a mans hand or back, close down, throw shoulders and do the dog work against hardy men like kilkenny Brick is the best we have had in years at it and is still the best at it atm. 90% of the time a match is won because one team physically dominates their opponents and works hard. Theres probably 12 or 13 lads more skillful than Brick in every team he's been with. But there has still never a better player. At the league semi-final for anyone questioning Brick, watch what he does off the ball, cause that 90% of GAA. He may not be able to swing off both sides, many can, he can't. But only a select few can read the game like he can. For anyone thats every played centre back, they'll know you never lose how to read the game.

cul beag

tomwaterford wrote: »

15 better is easy....best 15 is a different story

Is there much logic in replying to someone who moves the goalposts though??

John Mullane
Eoin kelly
Ken McGrath
Fergal Hartley
Tony brown
Sean daly
Sean cullinane
Paul Flynn (among the best ever in skill levels IMO)
Austin gleeson already
Eoin Murphy-shamrocks
Johnny brenner ...DLS
Stephen frampton

This is before you go back to the 80s (before most my time)....but likes of pat McGrath,galvin,Jim green are all spoke highly of

Back to the all Ireland winning teams and If you can't pick a few more who could hurl off both hands well any video evidence suggests they could...afaik john Keane made GAA team of milleilum

(surly a minimum requirement to make all time best 15 is ability to hurl off both sides??)

Sean Daly????? I can't type anymore with the laughing. Oh mother of God hahahaha

courtylad

cul beag wrote: »

Sean Daly????? I can't type anymore with the laughing. Oh mother of God hahahaha

The Growler

Deisegodeo

Minors well beaten in the end, 0-17 to 1-10. Very disappointing performance and had a great start, 1-2 to no score up within 3 minutes. Cork fairly took over after that and were first to nearly every ball. Waterford just couldnt win ball in the forwards, really begs the question of why Nolan was in goal, especially as Waterford missed a heap of frees and ended up bringing him up to take frees late on. He has to be in the forwards the next day.

mickmackmcgoo

Deisegodeo wrote:

Minors well beaten in the end, 0-17 to 1-10. Very disappointing performance and had a great start, 1-2 to no score up within 3 minutes. Cork fairly took over after that and were first to nearly every ball. Waterford just couldnt win ball in the forwards, really begs the question of why Nolan was in goal, especially as Waterford missed a heap of frees and ended up bringing him up to take frees late on. He has to be in the forwards the next day.

It was disappointing for sure and a lot of them didn't look up to that level , but there are some good players and they will improve next day . You're right about Nolan he needs to be outfield. Cork look a good side

courtylad

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

It was disappointing for sure and a lot of them didn't look up to that level , but there are some good players and they will improve next day . You're right about Nolan he needs to be outfield. Cork look a good side

What did I say? I tell ya lads... My analysis is better than RTE.

The blue blaa

courtylad wrote: »

What did I say? I tell ya lads... My analysis is better than RTE.

Go way ya crow every fella you said would go well you put the koibawsh on hahah... Only joking you were right in fairness but management were clueless no tactics i believe players are there but the management are not.
Cork had a game plan terrific movement off the ball.

redlead

Brick is the best bad hurler I've ever seen. What he does well he's brilliant at. Winning aerial ball, winning dirty ball, positioning, marking, leadership, work rate etc. His stick work is very poor, essentially he has the striking of a junior c hurler. The guy has three all stars and well deserved them too. He mightn't make our best ever 15 but he wouldn't be far off it. Sure someone like Gleeson would buy and sell him when it comes to skill levels with the hurley but as Brick has proved over the years you don't need that to be a great player ..... and he was a great player!

courtylad

The blue blaa wrote: »

Go way ya crow every fella you said would go well you put the koibawsh on hahah... Only joking you were right in fairness but management were clueless no tactics i believe players are there but the management are not.
Cork had a game plan terrific movement off the ball.

Your right, they were all over the place, first game, first test, easy enough to fix. Not the biggest team, lacks your Conor Prunty's and Cormac Curran's that could throw there weight around. Trend over the next few years im predicting.

From experience what id do is, next game, start a centre back at no 12. Deploy him between our half back line and midfield, Forget your sweeper. When we have the ball he's infront of our half back line, whatever side the ball is at he's 25 metres away from it. When we dont have the ball he's 25metres behind our half back line on the side of the ball. You do that the opposition has two choices, try and run the ball in or go for the shot. No matter how good your footwork and off the ball momentum is, if you have a man doing the no.12 role you'll cut out what happened today. Some will get this concept. if he is infront of the half back line and the ball goes short he will gather it, if it goes over his head by the time the half forward gets to it he should have him smothered. If the ball goes into the corner forward the half back on that side abandons his man, the no. 12 picks up the loose half forward and the half back goes to smother. When I did the GAA coaching Level 3 calls this role the Anchor Man.

From today id put HR Redmond, Cathal Curran in this role of no 12.
Drop Neil Montgomery out to half forward. Put your two smallest and fastest forward in on the edge of the square. One on the left, one on the right. Drive the ball quick and low into the corners from our midfield/half back line, by-pass there half back line. Coaching that aint the hardest thing.

they may be the best 15 in the county but unless they have the ruthlessness you wont win matches, at this level you need the man that is willing to put his head where you wouldnt dare put your boots, you'll pull the jersey, rack the studs down on the back of the heels, break the hurley off the other mans hand,not go for the ball and to play the man not the ball. Thats what it takes at this level really. Rarely the most skillful team comes out on top.

Based on the forwards today, dropping a man back into this role will be helpful.

sweeper works to a point in hurling but can be easily by-passed, Tipperary did it excellently last year, and manager with a sense in hurling will put his best ball winners/ point takers in corner forward and by-pass the sweeper. Works against the weaker counties though.

cul beag

Eoghan Murray's pace and speed of hurling are unfortunately not up to inter county level at minor and definitely Barron is every bit as good as him. Nolan has to be outfield for the next day he's a waste of talent in goal. Definitely looked poor on the line but to be brutally honest we look a poor outfit. No all Ireland in this team im afraid.

Waternut

Disappointing result in the minor though I don't believe many were expecting much from this minor team. There are still 2 or 3 that have the potential to go on and be successful at senior level. Nolan should be given a run out the field the next day.

On a brighter note, congrats to De La Salle in beating Ard Scoil Ris in the White Cup semi final. It's been a pretty dame good year for DLS college in general and shows the good work being put in by both the school and more importantly the clubs.

robopaddy2

I don't understand why you would play one of your best players in goal and then operate a sweeper system meaning that he would have little or nothing to do anyway. Makes zero sense to me. Everyone I know said the lad should be out the field and most of us didn't even see this group playing before last night. Same issues different year, we don't have good enough personnel overseeing our underage teams.

Giveitfong

Cork 0-17 Waterford 1-10

Waterford could, and possibly should, have won this very strange minor hurling game played in Walsh Park tonight before a paying attendance of 2,707.

Waterford had first use of a very strong wind blowing down the field towards the town goal and had the best possible start. In their very first attack, Eoin McGrath (wearing the number 9 jersey allotted to Harry Ruddle in the programme) ran through the Cork defence and blasted an unstoppable shot to the net from over 20 metres. Cathal Curran and Michael Mahony followed up with excellent points to leave Waterford 1-2 to 0-0 ahead after just three minutes.

Any hopes that Waterford would settle down and drive on from this tonic start were quickly blown to shreds. Cork took over complete control in all sectors of the field. Their ball control was excellent, they were much more alert and sharper in their play and had a game plan – which they executed superbly – to overcome the facts that they were up against both a very strong wind and a physically bigger and stronger team. Their main ploy consisted of low, short balls into the forwards which were regularly collected with their markers yards behind, giving them plenty of space to plan and play their next ball.

By contrast, Waterford team fumbled and foostered all over the field, dropping balls from hand and unable to execute the most basic pickups. They stood off their men amd allowed the smaller/lighter but much more committed Cork players to run around and through them. An example of the Waterford mindset was a defender hitting one sideline about six feet and then completely missing the next one.

Waterford’s main attacking ploy was booming puckouts from Billy Nolan which rained down on the Cork half backs. Those balls which they didn’t catch cleanly out of the sky were broken down and then hoovered up by alert and quick defenders. It didn’t help Waterford’s cause that Cork had at least one extra defender, with one of the Waterford forwards withdrawn in a sweeper role. Playing a sweeper when Waterford had the assistance of a very strong wind didn’t make much sense to me, and points up the importance of being able to adjust a prepared game plan to prevailing circumstances and conditions.

Despite playing into the wind, Cork reeled off eight points in a row without reply to go 0-8 to 1-2 up by the 25th minute. Then, as if someone had tripped a switch, Waterford suddenly completely took over again and landed four points in a row to go in at half time 1-6 to 0-8 ahead. An important factor here was a change in Nolan’s puckout strategy, sending lower and more directed ball to the midfield area.

During the interval we reckoned that if Waterford could start the second half as they finished the first and dictate the terms of play they might have some chance. However, the first ten minutes of the second half was a complete disaster for them, with Cork again taking over in all sectorsand rattling off five points in a row to go four up. At this stage a complete hiding looked in store for the home side.

Then, that switch was tripped again and suddenly Waterford took control again and essentially dominated territorially for the last twenty minutes. Faced with a desperate situation, key players decided that enough was enough and began competing for the ball and making it stick. An additional key factor was the introduction of Clonea’s Conor Dalton who put in a powerful last twenty minutes.

Unfortunately, Waterford were unable to translate their dominance outfield into scores on the board. Time and again they drove forward from midfield only to run into cul-de-sacs in front of the Cork goal. It didn’t help that Tommy Douglas, whom we would have looked to for a scoring edge, competely failed to get the grips with the game (and the ball) with the other corner forward Michael Mahony also failing to make any impact.

Waterford also failed to turn a series of scorable frees to advantage. Having started well, freetaker Eoghan Murray went completely off the boil as the game progressed. He missed a free just before half time and two more, from in front of the goal, in the third quarter, on top of a straightforward shot from play which he hit badly wide. One wonders what the result might have been had Harry Ruddle, who did very well for De La Salle in the Harty Coup, been on the frees here. While Waterford did manage to raise a few white flags, Cork, with the aid of the strong wind, were able to match this at the other end to keep themselves 4-5 points ahead.

The game ended on a slightly farcical note when Waterford were awarded four close-in frees in a row. Billy Nolan came up to take the first two of these but his two well-hit shots were blocked out. Harry Ruddle took the third, with the same result, before Nolan came back up the field to take the fourth which he blazed just over the crossbar. The game ended on the puckout.

Apart from Conor Dalton, for me Waterford’s two key players in the second half were Cathal Curran (brother of the Brickeys’ Cormac), operating in the midfield area, and Neil Montgomery (Abbeyside) in the half forwards. Both players won a world of ball and repeatedly drove at the Cork defence, with Montgomery notching two good points in the process.

Cork’s key players were their go-to man in the corner, Evan Sheehan, who hit four points from play and one from a sideline and their centre forward Matthew Bradley who also scored four from play. Their full forward Josh Beusang converted four frees and also scored one from play, as did midfielders Cian O’Mahony and Robbie Bourke and corner forward Liam Healy.

A lot of people in the attendance were condemning the Waterford players for their apparent lack of skills on the night, but of course they are much better than they showed here (and indeed they did demonstrate this in patches). Their big problem seemed to me to be poor mental preparation. They have to believe that they are much better than they showed tonight. If they can marry their physical size with their undoubted skills and, most important, the kind of drive or “cur chuige” that is required in championship matches, I would not write them off yet. Poorly and all as they played, they could still have won this game with the chances they created. They now go on to play Tipperary in Walsh Park.

Waterford: Billy Nolan (Roanmore) (0-3, frees); Conor Giles Doran (De La Salle); James Flavin (Ardmore); Darragh McGrath (Abbeyside); Donal Power (Passage); Eoghan Murray (Ballyduff Upper) (0-2, frees); Michael O’Brien (Geraldines); Eoin McGrath (Butlerstown); Harry Ruddle Redmond (Ballygunner) (1-0); Jack Prendergast (Lismore( (0-1); Dylan Guiry (Fourmilewater); Cathal Curran (Brickey Rangers) (0-1); Michael Mahony (Ballygunner) (0-1); Neil Montgomery (Abbeyside) (0-2); Tommy Douglas (De La Salle).

Orizio

Good report giveitfong. Sounds like ye were very unlucky.

HatchetMan7

courtylad wrote: »

Yes. Lose the quarter final your into the loser group 1. The winners go into the semi finals. The losers of group 1 play tipperary (note this will be tipperarys first match of the championship) they lose their out. We could have three matches before the semi final. Tipp play one and their out.

http:// munster.gaa.ie/fixtures/minor/

for more information check the link. Aint a typing issue, Kerry didnt field this year. Are fielding next year I think.

1-9 to 0-15 still three points down.

As I said last night, losing here will give management time to reassess the team and the way this game is going wont be a bad thing. Have two more matches to qualify if we dont rally.

Is it not the loser of Waterford v Tipp play Clare? It couldn't possibly be right that Tipp lose their first game and they are out where as Waterford could lose their first 2 games and are still in it.