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Irish driver behaviour in traffic actually causing jams

12Phase

Is it just me or does anyone else find Irish driver behaviour at rush hour particularly petty and aggressive?

I've driven in cities that are notorious for bad driving and I haven't noticed this as badly.

I completely missed a junction because drivers actually deliberately shut me out of a lane in Cork City this morning.

I had turned from a side street (on left) and needed to change across a lightly trafficed middle lane to to make a turn on the right. Drivers (I assume thinking I skipped the queue) completely blocked me. I got flashed and beeped at when I tried to get into the right turning lane by indicating. I wasn't blocking anyone, it was 'you're skipping the queue' behaviour.

Result was I had to abandon the turn and drive around a big mess of junctions and missed a meeting this morning.

Every morning I see stuff like this where drivers completely doggedly block merging lanes or break lights and block junctions and so on and cause huge tailbacks.

There's constant blocking merges on DC and motorways too once the traffic gets even slightly intense. I've seen it on the M50 and N40 where slip roads completely jam because the traffic on the motorway won't "merge like a zip" and basically block all access.

For example on the N40 (South Ring Cork), between the Bloomfield and Mahon slipways there's a connecting lane which is the merge off on for Bloomfield and the escspe lane for the Mahon exit.

In traffic, it can become pretty much impossible to get from that lane into the main flow of the N40. I know people who have ended up being 'forced' into the next exit having been unable to merge and because traffic will beep / flash if you stop on the lane as significant traffic flows between the two junctions almost like a parallel road.

In many countries they use traffic cops to prevent this kind of nonsense at peak times by moving traffic on.

A bit of traffic management and civilised driving could massively cut some of the traffic problems.

It's like nobody knows how to use multiple lane roads here at all.

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Sh1tbag OToole

They could have been foreigners, did you chase any of those people who cut you off and ask them where they were from?

Anyway you should be glad you missed the meeting. The less time of one's life one spends in a bland looking stale air-filled board room listening to corporate drivel the better

12Phase

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

They could have been foreigners, did you chase any of those people who cut you off and ask them where they were from?

Anyway you should be glad you missed the meeting. The less time of one's life one spends in a bland looking stale air-filled board room listening to corporate drivel the better

No they were definitely locals. One lady with sunglasses appeared to be shouting "ya (beep) langer!' as she closed the gap in her Rangerover.

The issue though is you could cut traffic dramatically if people actually drove with a bit of cop on and some knowledge of how to use multiple lanes.

The amount of lost productivity, frustration, wasted diesel and petrol and environmental damage that could be avoided is pretty huge.

TheChizler

12Phase wrote: »

In traffic, it can become pretty much impossible to get from that lane into the main flow of the N40. I know people who have ended up being 'forced' into the next exit having been unable to merge and because traffic will beep / flash if you stop on the lane as significant traffic flows between the two junctions almost like a parallel road.

I agree that other drivers' behaviour does contribute to the overall traffic situation, but are you saying you'd normally stop on the left lane to get into one of the other ones? Or is this when traffic on the right is stopped in a queue as it so often does?

12Phase

TheChizler wrote: »

I agree that other drivers' behaviour does contribute to the overall traffic situation, but are you saying you'd normally stop on the left lane to get into one of the other ones? Or is this when traffic on the right is stopped in a queue as it so often does?

In normal traffic you would merge without issue but when traffic in main lanes blocks merges it starts to get very messy or drivers get forced off on to Mahon (next exit). You'll see drivers stopped on the end of the lane on the cross hatching trying to merge.

It's a weird setup. They've created a joined up entrance and exit on the left that operate as a de facto lane directly connecting two junctions

The junctions are probably 1.5 to 2km apart but the slipways are connected together like a 3rd lane. You can drive between the junctions without ever merging into the two Eastbound lanes of the N40.

The other issue is that the two lanes on on the N40 heading east get busy and drivers can't merge. Meanwhile the lane that is connecting the two junctions can have traffic moving on parallel at anything up to 80km/h and even 100km/h

The result is that traffic exiting the N40 is often blocked or merges dangerously and traffic trying to join the road gets forced to stop.

You end up with traffic stopped indicating right to join the main carriageways and an unofficial fast moving lane in the hard shoulder linking the two junctions. Or, cars trying to get out of the slipway being aggressively beeped at and flashed by traffic moving between the two junctions.

Engineering wise I gave no idea how they could solve it unless they put in lights or something. It just doesn't work when busy.

Maybe variable speed limits that force the lane down to 50kmh when there is now flow on the N40?

It's lousy road design and bad driving.

MojoMaker

Cork people eh?

Shefwedfan

12Phase wrote: »

It's like nobody knows how to use multiple lane roads here at all.

Using multiple lanes is for losers

Some of the rules for Irish roads if you didn't read them:

Stay in overtaking lane at all times, no matter what time day/weather/speed.
If not possible to stay in overtaking lane then make sure to block up middle lane
All other lanes contain the devil
Drive at massive speed and leave no distance between you and car in front, space in front of car is where the devil lives
If foggy then close the gap between you and car in front, the devil uses fog to get you
If you see a car coming onto the motorway, block them. The devil is driving the car
Stuck in traffic, do not let any car move in or out of your lane, it is the devil
Back roads and single lane roads, drive faster as the devil is chasing you at all times
If you see a crash, swerve all over the place to get a look, you might see the devil
If you see yellow box at junction, park in it and block other traffic, this will stop the devil
If you see an amber light, floor it, the devil will get you at the light

That is some of the laws, just to give you some idea's

Also please beware, the devil is on a road near you

grogi

12Phase wrote: »

No they were definitely locals. One lady with sunglasses appeared to be shouting "ya (beep) langer!' as she closed the gap in her Rangerover.

In fairness I have seen a lot more aggressive and antisocial behaviour on the road from the weaker half of the population.

What reg do you drive? If it is D, I wouldn't blame here to be honest... /s

ShadowHearth

I came from Lithuania amd drove there before I came in Ireland. We got it here very very civil.

If what, I find Irish drivers to be very friendly, but like in any life situation: there will always, I mean always, be an asshole"

Insect Overlord

I've been driving for maybe seven years at this stage, and even at 20 I liked the philosophy of leading by example. Flashing cars at junctions to let them join traffic or to let them exit the main road, acknowledging other drivers when they do the same for me, etc. I often see a ripple effect when someone I've yielded to does the same for someone else further down the road. It makes life a little bit easier for everyone (so long as you're not that driver who holds up a load of cars by being *too* nice :P )

12Phase

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Using multiple lanes is for losers

Some of the rules for Irish roads if you didn't read them:
Stay in overtaking lane at all times, no matter what time day/weather/speed.

If not possible to stay in overtaking lane then make sure to block up middle lane

All other lanes contain the devil

Drive at massive speed and leave no distance between you and car in front, space in front of car is where the devil lives

If foggy then close the gap between you and car in front, the devil uses fog to get you

If you see a car coming onto the motorway, block them. The devil is driving the car

Stuck in traffic, do not let any car move in or out of your lane, it is the devil

Back roads and single lane roads, drive faster as the devil is chasing you at all times

If you see a crash, swerve all over the place to get a look, you might see the devil

If you see yellow box at junction, park in it and block other traffic, this will stop the devil

If you see an amber light, floor it, the devil will get you at the light

That is some of the laws, just to give you some idea's

Also please beware, the devil is on a road near you

You forgot: Create a rolling roadblock in the overtaking lane at your own personal choice of maximum speed limit which you feel should be applied to all roads (e.g. 72.5 km/h). Don't let anyone past, even ambulances.

I think it's more like a vast collection of Victor Meldrews behind the wheels of Irish cars in traffic taking offence at everyone's behaviour and attempting to enforce their view of driving on everyone else (with zero idea of the actual rules of the road).

Shefwedfan

An File wrote: »

I've been driving for maybe seven years at this stage, and even at 20 I liked the philosophy of leading by example. Flashing cars at junctions to let them join traffic or to let them exit the main road, acknowledging other drivers when they do the same for me, etc. I often see a ripple effect when someone I've yielded to does the same for someone else further down the road. It makes life a little bit easier for everyone (so long as you're not that driver who holds up a load of cars by being *too* nice :P )

You are the devil......

josip

The problem is OP that there are a surprisingly large number of cnuts out there who think that their time is more important than the time of the people who get in the correct lane at the start and wait their turn to get to the top of the lane.
I understand that your case is different, but the queue skipping cnuts are the ones who are the root cause of your problem. Over the years they have pissed off most drivers to the point where they are very reluctant to let someone in.

boardsuser1

Sure the world ends at the M50.

12Phase

I think on the M50, the N40 and any other distributor ring road type setups where you've junctions every couple of km, you really need the option of a variable speed limit (including on those weird 'escape lanes' linking junctions)

So, at peak times you don't get that kind of blocking behaviour.

It wouldn't be necessary if everyone wasn't asshats, but seems like it might be a viable solution.

Although, I'm sure we'll spend a fortune on VMS signage and then the traffic will just ignore it due to lack of any enforcement.

In city centres the cops standing on streets pushing cars through and preventing blocking behaviour actually works very well in the countries that deploy it.

Operation Free Flow in Dublin (and I think it was tried in Cork at least once too) is basically that.

lawred2

An File wrote: »

I've been driving for maybe seven years at this stage, and even at 20 I liked the philosophy of leading by example. Flashing cars at junctions to let them join traffic or to let them exit the main road, acknowledging other drivers when they do the same for me, etc. I often see a ripple effect when someone I've yielded to does the same for someone else further down the road. It makes life a little bit easier for everyone (so long as you're not that driver who holds up a load of cars by being *too* nice :P )

Same

Often if I see queues waiting to turn on or off a road... I'll slow up and let at least 5 or 6 of the cars go. Once you've slowed traffic behind you it is often the case that when you decide to move off they often follow your lead because they've been slowed already.

Also sometimes I find that those trying to turn are so surprised that someone has given them way that they often stall or pause thinking you've made a mistake..

boardsuser1

12Phase wrote: »

I think on the M50, the N40 and any other distributor ring road type setups where you've junctions every couple of km, you really need the option of a variable speed limit (including on those weird 'escape lanes' linking junctions)

So, at peak times you don't get that kind of blocking behaviour.

It wouldn't be necessary if everyone wasn't asshats, but seems like it might be a viable solution.

I'm a Cork man myself. But was also a coach driver for a living so i can completely relate to what you are saying.

That N40 is a joke. The M50 is worse for traffic but depending on what you drive and where the reg is from it can be better.

I travelled both roads in a C reg car.and was beeped out of it in Dublin more often than Cork.

Then with the coach no one wanted to let me in unless they were truck or bus drivers themselves.

grogi

KC161 wrote: »

I travelled both roads in a C reg car.and was beeped out of it in Dublin more often than Cork.

I'm not born Irish and it still does not stop to amaze me how much attention people pay to this one or two letters on the registration...

A friend at work simply refused to buy a perfectly good car that is on Dublin plates...

KC161 wrote: »

Then with the coach no one wanted to let me in unless they were truck or bus drivers themselves.

One need to be an uber d***ead to do something like that.

12Phase

KC161 wrote: »

I'm a Cork man myself. But was also a coach driver for a living so i can completely relate to what you are saying.

That N40 is a joke. The M50 is worse for traffic but depending on what you drive and where the reg is from it can be better.

I travelled both roads in a C reg car.and was beeped out of it in Dublin more often than Cork.

Then with the coach no one wanted to let me in unless they were truck or bus drivers themselves.

I guess it depends on the route you're on. I've found both cities pretty prone to frustrated / aggressive drivers. The worse the traffic is the more it happens, which is understandable, but they're often just making matters way worse by creating obstacles to free flowing traffic.

You've also got a lot of issues in Ireland with unbalanced junctions on roundabouts where you get blockages as one particular route will naturally take precedence over the others due to volume or flow.

In Dublin the one that gets me is the weird and totally unintuitive way the lanes work in a lot of places e.g. the north quays. If you're familiar with them they're fine. If you're not a regular driver on that route (be you from Dublin or anywhere else), drivers will block you for not knowing 8 turns back that you should have been in that lane. I've seen what were obviously rental cars nearly being driven into by aggressive drivers on the quays and at Christchurch.

12Phase

grogi wrote: »

I'm not born Irish and it still does not stop to amaze me how much attention people pay to this one or two letters on the registration...

A friend at work simply refused to buy a perfectly good car that is on Dublin plates...

One need to be an uber d***ead to do something like that.

Most countries don't have local plates (at least not that are permanently linked to the car if it's sold in another region).

Can you imagine if you'd the Irish system in the UK? Can't see many Londoners wanting YO Yorkshire reg or EX Essex.
Welsh drivers with English regs?!?

In Dublin and to a degree in Cork D or C reg will make your sale easier.

It should be possible to get a local reg for the car or the county plates could be done away with entirely. It only reinforces the GAA shirt or Springfield vs Shelbyville mentality.

It's not the mentality that's unique to Ireland it's the system.

Diemos

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Using multiple lanes is for losers

Some of the rules for Irish roads if you didn't read them:
Stay in overtaking lane at all times, no matter what time day/weather/speed.

If not possible to stay in overtaking lane then make sure to block up middle lane

All other lanes contain the devil

Drive at massive speed and leave no distance between you and car in front, space in front of car is where the devil lives

If foggy then close the gap between you and car in front, the devil uses fog to get you

If you see a car coming onto the motorway, block them. The devil is driving the car

Stuck in traffic, do not let any car move in or out of your lane, it is the devil

Back roads and single lane roads, drive faster as the devil is chasing you at all times

If you see a crash, swerve all over the place to get a look, you might see the devil

If you see yellow box at junction, park in it and block other traffic, this will stop the devil

If you see an amber light, floor it, the devil will get you at the light

That is some of the laws, just to give you some idea's

You forgot:
The first 5 seconds of a red light, if you do not drive through like you own the place, the Devil will certainly piss in your corn flakes.
Certainly in Dublin this rule applies.

millington

12Phase wrote: »

Most countries don't have local plates (at least not that are permanently linked to the car if it's sold in another region).

Can you imagine if you'd the Irish system in the UK? Can't see many Londoners wanting YO Yorkshire reg or EX Essex.
Welsh drivers with English regs?!?

But this is the case isn't it? The car is registered when new with an area related plate, and the plate is kept on the car when sold unless someone transfers a private reg on

12Phase

millington wrote: »

But this is the case isn't it? The car is registered when new with an area related plate, and the plate is kept on the car when sold unless someone transfers a private reg on

It wasn't until relatively recently. I'm sure it will cause similar issues in England and Scotland as time goes on. Their old system didn't make it obvious where the car was registered initially.

The Irish system goes crazy identifying and underlining the county. Letter in centre highlighted with two dashes and the county name in Irish above to really ram it home.

The old French system forced reregistration if you moved department to department. The new one is not regional at all. Just random letters and numbers. They've a departmental number on the edge of the plate which is removable as there was uproar over removal of regional identity!

grogi

12Phase wrote: »

Most countries don't have local plates (at least not that are permanently linked to the car if it's sold in another region).

Can you imagine if you'd the Irish system in the UK? Can't see many Londoners wanting YO Yorkshire reg or EX Essex.
Welsh drivers with English regs?!?

It is a piece of plastic attached to a car. Why anyone should care?

12Phase wrote: »

In Dublin and to a degree in Cork D or C reg will make your sale easier.

I know - the mysterious "better roads" out there

12Phase wrote: »

It should be possible to get a local reg for the car or the county plates could be done away with entirely. It only reinforces the GAA shirt or Springfield vs Shelbyville mentality.

It would be overcomplicating the system. Those county designations should be removed for all.

It's not the mentality that's unique to Ireland it's the system

French have something similar for sure, I don't know the details though...

Arbiter of Good Taste

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Using multiple lanes is for losers

Some of the rules for Irish roads if you didn't read them:
Stay in overtaking lane at all times, no matter what time day/weather/speed.

If not possible to stay in overtaking lane then make sure to block up middle lane

All other lanes contain the devil

Drive at massive speed and leave no distance between you and car in front, space in front of car is where the devil lives, unless you are stopped in traffic and not moving, in which case it is imperative to leave at least a car and a half distance between you and the car in front of you - particularly if it means the car behind you does not make it through the next change of lights.

If foggy then close the gap between you and car in front, the devil uses fog to get you

If you see a car coming onto the motorway, block them. The devil is driving the car. If on approaching an exit and see a car in the distance coming onto the motorway, you must increase your speed to at least 150kpm to prevent the devil entering the motorway in front of you.

Stuck in traffic, do not let any car move in or out of your lane, it is the devil

Back roads and single lane roads, drive faster as the devil is chasing you at all times

If you see a crash, swerve all over the place to get a look, you might see the devil

If you see yellow box at junction, park in it and block other traffic, this will stop the devil. In a two lane road, if the car next to you is waiting for it to be clear before proceeding across the yellow box, you must pull in front of him into his lane at the last possible moment to prevent him from clearing the yellow box. If he beeps you loudly, he is only thanking you for reminding him to stop the devil.

If you see an amber light, floor it, particularly if you are making a right turn at a busy junction, the devil will get you at the light

That is some of the laws, just to give you some idea's

Also please beware, the devil is on a road near you

FYP. You're welcome.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

12Phase

grogi wrote: »

French have something similar for sure, I don't know the details though...

Old French system had a 2 digit identifier for the Department (analogous to county). They're also the first two digits of your postal code and many other things.

You couldn't keep a "foreign" car in a new department though. So if you moved from Bordeaux to Paris you might go from 33 to 75 and so on and had to get new plates.

The new system is AA-111-AAA They're just issued sequentially and will end when they reach ZZ-999-ZZZ

They put a department number and logo on the opposite side of the plate to the EU flag. It's just a nod to regional identity. You change that if you move house to another dept but your reg remains constant.

In Ireland a system like that would make resale values more even and shorten the reg numbers. They're crazy long.

12Phase

draiochtanois wrote: »

You can blame bad drivers, but you left too little time to get to your destination.

Next time build in a leeway of 20 - 30 mins and you will have no issues.

No, I blame bad drivers. I left plenty of time but thanks for the little time management lecture!!!

lawred2

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

lol

you would leave 30 minutes earlier for work than necessary for fear that some boorish @rsehole would decide to cut you off at a junction?

give me a break

H3llR4iser

I've lived in Cork for many years, and the drivers there did strike me as, how to say, infuriating. The interesting fact is that most of my coworkers and friends there, who hail from different parts of Ireland, think the same.

The biggest gripes are the general slowness not just in pure speed but reaction as well; if you're at a traffic light, you're guaranteed only 3-4 cars will make it through the green light as they...take their time to start; And the absolutely confrontational attitude just like the OP described, getting in the way for the sake of doing it.

I drove there last week end and had yet another taste - as you approach Cork, the overtaking lane of the motorway becomes progressively hogged and the driving speed dwindles. It's not like Dublin drivers are great (For example, most still can't figure out how a timed bus lane works) but the general flow of traffic is way more "continental" in its style and behaviour.

That said, the N40 wins a place of its own among the "worst driven roads in Ireland" and perhaps Europe; Between the amazing amount of unaccompanied L drivers (and driving school cars with an instructor inside who gets the student drivers to hog the middle lane, seen it multiple times), tractors hogging the middle lane at 25 km/h pulling (and strewing all around) gigantic loads of bale, people changing lanes without even thinking about looking, "vigilantes" enforcing their 70km/h speed limit in the overtaking lane, you are spoilt for choice. It's not rare to see artics having to go on the overtaking lane in order to pass cars that proceed at unfathomably low speeds and I've actually come up to drivers who would drive slowly and swerve around to prevent others from overtaking. One of them very nearly - and very purposedly - pinched me to the armco.

While infrastructurally the road has its issues, some other behaviours are beyond baffling. The Mahon exit coming from Kinsale and going towards the tunnel, for example: It has got two lanes which become three as you approach the junction; Leftmost two lanes allow turning left, rightmost for a right turn. The traffic light means often the traffic ends up spilling on the N40 - but hold and behold, most of the times there's one single line of cars all stopped bumper to bumper in the leftmost lane. The central lane, which still allows for a left turn, is empty. I routinely used to just drive up to the light overtaking all the stopped cars (I had to go left and then right at the next junction towards the DELL building, so I was perfectly positioned). At that point, many people in the queue "woke up", realized there was another lane, and started using it.

lawred2

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I've lived in Cork for many years, and the drivers there did strike me as, how to say, infuriating. The interesting fact is that most of my coworkers and friends there, who hail from different parts of Ireland, think the same.

The biggest gripes are the general slowness not just in pure speed but reaction as well; if you're at a traffic light, you're guaranteed only 3-4 cars will make it through the green light as they...take their time to start; And the absolutely confrontational attitude just like the OP described, getting in the way for the sake of doing it.

I drove there last week end and had yet another taste - as you approach Cork, the overtaking lane of the motorway becomes progressively hogged and the driving speed dwindles. It's not like Dublin drivers are great (For example, most still can't figure out how a timed bus lane works) but the general flow of traffic is way more "continental" in its style and behaviour.

That said, the N40 wins a place of its own among the "worst driven roads in Ireland" and perhaps Europe; Between the amazing amount of unaccompanied L drivers (and driving school cars with an instructor inside who gets the student drivers to hog the middle lane, seen it multiple times), tractors hogging the middle lane at 25 km/h pulling (and strewing all around) gigantic loads of bale, people changing lanes without even thinking about looking, "vigilantes" enforcing their 70km/h speed limit in the overtaking lane, you are spoilt for choice. It's not rare to see artics having to go on the overtaking lane in order to pass cars that proceed at unfathomably low speeds and I've actually come up to drivers who would drive slowly and swerve around to prevent others from overtaking. One of them very nearly - and very purposedly - pinched me to the armco.

While infrastructurally the road has its issues, some other behaviours are beyond baffling. The Mahon exit coming from Kinsale and going towards the tunnel, for example: It has got two lanes which become three as you approach the junction; Leftmost two lanes allow turning left, rightmost for a right turn. The traffic light means often the traffic ends up spilling on the N40 - but hold and behold, most of the times there's one single line of cars all stopped bumper to bumper in the leftmost lane. The central lane, which still allows for a left turn, is empty. I routinely used to just drive up to the light overtaking all the stopped cars (I had to go left and then right at the next junction towards the DELL building, so I was perfectly positioned). At that point, many people in the queue "woke up", realized there was another lane, and started using it.

nah not having that - It's not a Cork thing. It's an Irish thing. I see it everywhere.

For starters; have you ever travelled on the M7 in Kildare?