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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

beveragelady

I called An Post today to try to sort out a problem with deliveries. The customer service chap was very helpful and I think it all got sorted.
The thing is, I tried to give him my Eircode because I live at a vague rural address but he said that they're not using them because the system isn't set up.
Amazed!
It's bad enough that they're no good to users of satnavs or google maps, but this is just astonishing. Can anybody explain how this could have been launched to such fanfare when it's all but meaningless?

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marmurr1916

Sam Russell wrote: »

I can think of few projects that fall into the 'success' camp but many that fall into the 'failure' camp.

HSE, Irish Water, Planning system, Local Government would be failures - the list would go on.

Successes - RTE, The Museums, The Arts, The Defence Forces, GAA, The IDA (and FDI policy) are exceptions, and I cannot think of any others but I am sure there are some. There must be some - surely.

Sorry for going off topic.

The changeover to the euro went very smoothly as did the changeover to metric speed limits.

The general day-to-day running of the state is actually among the most efficient in the world, despite the constant whining from many people that it's not perfect.

Here's a heads-up to those people (especially the 'only in Ireland' brigade) - nowhere in the world is perfect. Of the couple of hundred independent states (de jure and de facto) in the world, Ireland is easily among the 20 or so most well governed, putting it into the top 10%. And that's in terms of numbers of states.

Taking into account population, about 95% of the world's population live in states or territories that are run less efficiently than Ireland. I am heartily fecking sick to death of the amount of whinging that so many Irish people engage in.

Travel the world, live in a few other countries, and you'll soon realise that Ireland, compared to around 90% of countries, is actually a very pleasant and smoothly efficient place in which to live.

Could it be better? Of course it could, but I get so bloody fed up with whinging moaners who only concentrate on the (on a global scale) relatively minor inefficiencies and have absolutely no clue how lucky they are to live in such a peaceful, prosperous, well-run, fair country that counts among the best countries in the world in which to live.

Sam Russell

RainyDay wrote: »

Would it surprise you to know that the successful organisations and projects don't get much press coverage?

That may be the squeaky wheel getting the oil. You do not make a fuss about the lack of traffic, but you do if there is gridlock.

RainyDay

Sam Russell wrote: »

I can think of few projects that fall into the 'success' camp but many that fall into the 'failure' camp.

HSE, Irish Water, Planning system, Local Government would be failures - the list would go on.

Successes - RTE, The Museums, The Arts, The Defence Forces, GAA, The IDA (and FDI policy) are exceptions, and I cannot think of any others but I am sure there are some. There must be some - surely.

Sorry for going off topic.

Would it surprise you to know that the successful organisations and projects don't get much press coverage?

ukoda

Sam Russell wrote: »

As the Chinese leader (I think it was Zhou Enlai Premier from 1949 - 1976) said when asked if he thought the French Revolution was a success, said 'I think it is too early to say'.

Eircode may be a success, but not just yet. If Google and Garmin implement it soon, then maybe.

There are degrees of success.

From a consumer point of view, if it's not on google maps and they don't see it everywhere then it's a failure.

From a business point of view, if it turns a profit and can lay claim to millions in efficiency savings, then it's a success.

I think for it to be truly successful it needs to do both. It needs to be part of every day life while generating the efficiencies. I believe it can do this

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Eircodes should eventually be added to the success list, one of its first major tests will be the current census.
Once all government agencies use it as part of the official address of citizens and actually use the eircode for verification purposes as originally intended, then it can be called a success.

As the Chinese leader (I think it was Zhou Enlai Premier from 1949 - 1976) said when asked if he thought the French Revolution was a success, said 'I think it is too early to say'.

Eircode may be a success, but not just yet. If Google and Garmin implement it soon, then maybe.

[Deleted User]

Eircodes should eventually be added to the success list, one of its first major tests will be the current census.
Once all government agencies use it as part of the official address of citizens and actually use the eircode for verification purposes as originally intended, then it can be called a success.

Sam Russell

BoatMad wrote: »

many projects in this country " deliver" but for political reasons there are always those that make capital out of failures even small ones. We do a lot of things right in this state , but all we ever moan about are the small percentage of wrongs

I can think of few projects that fall into the 'success' camp but many that fall into the 'failure' camp.

HSE, Irish Water, Planning system, Local Government would be failures - the list would go on.

Successes - RTE, The Museums, The Arts, The Defence Forces, GAA, The IDA (and FDI policy) are exceptions, and I cannot think of any others but I am sure there are some. There must be some - surely.

Sorry for going off topic.

BoatMad

There's certainly some saving, but how much I don't know. We've a history in this country of over promising the benefits of projects like this and then wondering afterwards why they aren't delivering.

many projects in this country " deliver" but for political reasons there are always those that make capital out of failures even small ones. We do a lot of things right in this state , but all we ever moan about are the small percentage of wrongs

plodder

BoatMad wrote: »

Plodder, whats the point of your discussion, even if SUSI is out even by a considerable margin , there still is a significant saving from using Eircode, or are you just trying to say SUSI is lying .

There's certainly some saving, but how much I don't know. We've a history in this country of over promising the benefits of projects like this and then wondering afterwards why they aren't delivering.

your argument is like stating that a 3/4 pint of beer is tasteless compared to a pint

No, it's more like saying just because we spent 38 million on the brewery doesn't mean we get to drink free beer.

[Deleted User]

The census enumerator was around on Sunday and used the eircode as a verification that she had the correct location, she had a map with the eircodes next to the dots.

TheChizler

Had a chat with the census enumerator today, I was the 4th person he'd come across who knew their Eircode. My brother had a similar story where he was the second. It'll take a while but with use we'll get there. I was glad it was on my form, the enumerator's handwritten address was totally illegible.

BoatMad

Plodder, whats the point of your discussion, even if SUSI is out even by a considerable margin , there still is a significant saving from using Eircode, or are you just trying to say SUSI is lying .

your argument is like stating that a 3/4 pint of beer is tasteless compared to a pint

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Ok, say you reverse that split and say one third of applications are from unique addresses and two thirds from non unique (I don't have the figures here, but that is likely a conservative estimate). In that situation, around 33,000 applications don't benefit that much from having an eircode, but 66,000 do. So, in this situation 250,000 hours of saved work on average are being shared among 66,000 applications, which equates to three hours of work saved by having immediate access to a valid address and using an automated system to calculate distances. Is that really believable? As I said last week, the proof will be in actual moneys saved by SUSI. If they don't actually save millions in their expenditure, then it's not real.

No as pointed out to you above, every application saves because of this eircode implementation. Some save more than others. But they all save. So let it go. You are either now just trolling or if you genuinely can't see it, no amount of explaining it to you is going to work.

plodder

Ok, say you reverse that split and say one third of applications are from unique addresses and two thirds from non unique (I don't have the figures here, but that is likely a conservative estimate). In that situation, around 33,000 applications don't benefit that much from having an eircode, but 66,000 do. So, in this situation 250,000 hours of saved work on average are being shared among 66,000 applications, which equates to three hours of work saved by having immediate access to a valid address and using an automated system to calculate distances. Is that really believable? As I said last week, the proof will be in actual moneys saved by SUSI. If they don't actually save millions in their expenditure, then it's not real.

I suggest people try it out for themselves. Go to maps.google.ie Type in the name of a 3rd level college. Then click "directions" and in the from field type in some unique address. Select the address and you will see the distance. For unique addresses that google knows about, you can do this literally in seconds.

GJG

plodder wrote: »

What's going to happen when someone provides the right address but the wrong eircode, or no eircode at all? it's naive to think that all of the above work will just disappear by using eircode.

Firstly, if a student inputs their Eircode into an application form, the system can then populate their address automatically. If an invalid Eircode is input, the system will recognise it as such and not allow the application to proceed until it is corrected.

In the unlikely event that the student mistakenly inputs a different but real Eircode, the address populated will be starkly different from their own, and allow a correction. That alone is likely to save significant staff time, otherwise wasted on investigating and correcting errors.

plodder wrote: »

Nearly two thirds of applications will come from unique addresses, which can be resolved instantaneously without any need for Eircode. So, Eircode only improves productivity in the other third.

That's nonsense. Students grants are given in bands, according to distance from their college. Even with unique addresses, SUSI staff had to type their address and the college into Google maps, allow it to work out the route and distance, calculate the appropriate band and input that band into the SUSI database, with opportunities for error at each step.

Now, when the student enters their Eircode at application, the database is populated with the band automatically, with no room for miskeying or human error. Either benefit, before you start talking about non-unique addresses, is more than enough to justify this deployment.

If you are sceptical about the workload of each application, how many hours, at a rough guess, would you say it took a council that reported a processing cost of €470 per application?

marmurr1916

plodder wrote: »

It's ok to just say no, I don't have it. I'm not disbelieving you.

The two thirds/one third thing is the rough split of unique vs non-unique addresses across the country. So, if there wasn't a bias in applications towards rural areas, then that is what the split would be for college grant applications.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/students-from-dublin-least-likely-to-get-third-level-grants-1.2320183

http://www.hea.ie/news/review-student-grant-holders

Analysis of student grant applications based on the applications from the former Dublin postal districts and Co. Dublin here:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/three-districts-receive-40-of-student-grants-in-dublin-1.2324887

The mandatory use of Eircodes for grant applications will enable much quicker sorting of data into small areas or other suitable geographical areas.

byrnefm

Thanks OscarBravo! I'll pass your information on to him.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

My dad had no Eircode when he moved into his house (like your colleague, no red dot). He contacted Capita, explained where he was, and they gave him his Eircode over the phone.

I'll check with him who he spoke to.

eta: I just checked the map, and his house now has a red dot.

OK, seems it was done by email. He sent them his GPS location and a set of directions to his house (I think through the contact form on the website) and they sent him back the Eircode.

oscarBravo

byrnefm wrote: »

I've a colleague at work whose house was built several years ago but has no Eircode as there is no red dot on his house on the Eircode Finder page. He lives in the countryside.

Eircode said to contact An Post but he's really not sure who there he should get in contact with. Any ideas? He would actually use it if he had it!

My dad had no Eircode when he moved into his house (like your colleague, no red dot). He contacted Capita, explained where he was, and they gave him his Eircode over the phone.

I'll check with him who he spoke to.

eta: I just checked the map, and his house now has a red dot.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we stick to the topic and not be bickering.

SUSI are using it (that is implentation - so on topic) and say they are saving a lot of man-hours - OK. Enough said.

byrnefm

I've a colleague at work whose house was built several years ago but has no Eircode as there is no red dot on his house on the Eircode Finder page. He lives in the countryside.

Eircode said to contact An Post but he's really not sure who there he should get in contact with. Any ideas? He would actually use it if he had it!

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

Do you, you claimed its two thirds unique addresses, do you have a source for that?

It's ok to just say no, I don't have it. I'm not disbelieving you.

The two thirds/one third thing is the rough split of unique vs non-unique addresses across the country. So, if there wasn't a bias in applications towards rural areas, then that is what the split would be for college grant applications.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Do you have a reference to what the split is?

Do you, you claimed its two thirds unique addresses, do you have a source for that?

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

College grant applications are disportionslly rural, as already pointed out to you. So no, two thirds won't be straightforward.

Do you have a reference to what the split is?

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

Two points. What's going to happen when someone provides the right address but the wrong eircode, or no eircode at all? it's naive to think that all of the above work will just disappear by using eircode.

I've already said that it will definitely improve efficiency, but two hours on average seems extraordinary (and I'm not the only person to say that). Just to explain the relevance of averages here. Nearly two thirds of applications will come from unique addresses, which can be resolved instantaneously without any need for Eircode. So, Eircode only improves productivity in the other third. So, this means that the productivity improvement being attributed to Eircode is actually several hours per application, because the unique cases will be resolved immediately.

Now, if this turns out to be true, then that is wonderful and we will see annual expenditure by SUSI drop by at least 10 million (going on GJG's figures). We probably should send some consultants over there though to see what other efficiencies they can achieve .....

But, I make no apology for remaining sceptical.

College grant applications are disportionslly rural, as already pointed out to you. So no, two thirds won't be straightforward.

plodder

ukoda wrote: »

I've tried, as have others

Some applications would be straight forward

Others would require a huge amount of follow up work to confirm the properties location. The man power to do this, and the man power to manage the processes needed for this would be a considerable drain on resources.

This is only only other way I think of explaining it to you:

An application comes in, it's address is unique, it's processed and it's done in X amount of time.

An application comes in, it's non unique, I try google it, I can't resolve it, I make a phone call, no answer, I schedule a call back, I call again, I reach someone who can't help me, I schedule another call back, no answer, I write a letter asking them to call me, they don't, I call again, I leave a voice message, I go on annual leave, I pass the work to someone else to follow up, they call the applicant again, they get to speak to someone, it's a long call as we try to pin point the house on a map. All of this follow up work requires resources and processes and someone to manage it. Multiply this by 10's of thousands of applications, some will take even more time than this example.

Now introduce eircode. All that extra work is gone. Take a moment to think about the impacts in some real detail. Don't just divide 2 numbers and declare it to be false because you don't understand the impact.

Two points. What's going to happen when someone provides the right address but the wrong eircode, or no eircode at all? it's naive to think that all of the above work will just disappear by using eircode.

I've already said that it will definitely improve efficiency, but two hours on average seems extraordinary (and I'm not the only person to say that). Just to explain the relevance of averages here. Nearly two thirds of applications will come from unique addresses, which can be resolved instantaneously without any need for Eircode. So, Eircode only improves productivity in the other third. So, this means that the productivity improvement being attributed to Eircode is actually several hours per application, because the unique cases will be resolved immediately.

Now, if this turns out to be true, then that is wonderful and we will see annual expenditure by SUSI drop by at least 10 million (going on GJG's figures). We probably should send some consultants over there though to see what other efficiencies they can achieve .....

But, I make no apology for remaining sceptical.

ukoda

plodder wrote: »

@ukoda. I never said it can't be true. I said it seems unlikely so explain how could it be true

I've tried, as have others

Some applications would be straight forward

Others would require a huge amount of follow up work to confirm the properties location. The man power to do this, and the man power to manage the processes needed for this would be a considerable drain on resources.

This is only only other way I think of explaining it to you:

An application comes in, it's address is unique, it's processed and it's done in X amount of time.

An application comes in, it's non unique, I try google it, I can't resolve it, I make a phone call, no answer, I schedule a call back, I call again, I reach someone who can't help me, I schedule another call back, no answer, I write a letter asking them to call me, they don't, I call again, I leave a voice message, I go on annual leave, I pass the work to someone else to follow up, they call the applicant again, they get to speak to someone, it's a long call as we try to pin point the house on a map. All of this follow up work requires resources and processes and someone to manage it. Multiply this by 10's of thousands of applications, some will take even more time than this example.

Now introduce eircode. All that extra work is gone. Take a moment to think about the impacts in some real detail. Don't just divide 2 numbers and declare it to be false because you don't understand the impact.

That example above could take 5 hours to fully fix over the course of a week. If half the applications (50k) were like that, then 5 X 50,000 =????

And that's not including the managers time to make sure the follow up happens, dispute resolution, cost of calls/letters, and a wide variety of other issues.

BoatMad

plodder wrote: »

Then please engage with the substance of my points and stop this 'conspiracy theory' nonsense.

the data protection issue are a non starter, anything that can be realised today , remains the same when using an Eircode.

thats not an eircode specific fault

your issues with the SUSI comments , parallel other " conspiracy " theorists in that when prevented with information you disagree with , it must be a lie or fabricated or biased, the truth bring much more mundane, its just an honest statement

plodder

BoatMad wrote: »

Plodder, rather then advancing conspiracy theories or making up edge cases, why not advance meaningful Eircode issues, if there are any rather then simply trawling to fabricate obscure hypothetical issues.

Ive no problem with reasoned debate, I understand the technicals of Eircode implementation, I can quite happily debates the issues of Geodirectories for example ( mind you its numbingly boring stuff !!)

Then please engage with the substance of my points and stop this 'conspiracy theory' nonsense.

BoatMad

plodder wrote: »

It's not meaningless negativity. But, if you think it is, then why are you here? This is a discussion site, where people are entitled to comment. Get over yourself.

@ukoda. I never said it can't be true. I said it seems unlikely so explain how could it be true

Do you folks seriously believe that this thread should just be a forum for Eircode fans, and nobody should be allowed to question anything??

Plodder, rather then advancing conspiracy theories or making up edge cases, why not advance meaningful Eircode issues, if there are any rather then simply trawling to fabricate obscure hypothetical issues.

Ive no problem with reasoned debate, I understand the technicals of Eircode implementation, I can quite happily debates the issues of Geodirectories for example ( mind you its numbingly boring stuff !!)