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When aren't you a Catholic?

kneemos

For the purposes of the Census are you still a Catholic even if you don't practice or believe in it?
There's a definite vagueness regarding that particular question I'd have thought.

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Maximus Alexander

beach_walker wrote: »

And again, atheists telling who is and isn't Catholic.

Of course they know better than the people themselves, it isn't from the wind that the stereotype came

Actions speak louder than words though, surely? I could call myself a tennis player, and I certainly like the idea of it, but I don't actually play any tennis so people could rightly call me a spoofer and they wouldn't need to be tennis players to do so.

Huntergonzo

I would say you aren't catholic once you start picking and choosing which bits of catholic dogma you want to believe and which bits you don't. For example a lot of people have given up the belief that you should put people to death for working on the sabbath (Exodus 35:2), which is strange because it's the unquestionable word of God.

So anyway for me, if you stop believing in such things then you're no longer catholic (but you may still believe in 'a god' of course), which in fairness doesn't leave many true catholics in Ireland today :-)

beach_walker

Huntergonzo wrote: »

but you may still believe in 'a god' of course

How very charitable from the atheists.

So is it just Catholicism that you guys spend your time defining who can and can't identify themselves as such, or do you bring these skills to other groups in society?

RayCon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE0lBbBNR1Q

Maximus Alexander

beach_walker wrote: »

How very charitable from the atheists.

So is it just Catholicism that you guys spend your time defining who can and can't identify themselves as such, or do you bring these skills to other groups in society?

Why are you calling us atheists? I'm not an atheist.

beach_walker

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Why are you calling us atheists? I'm not an atheist.

Fair enough, I thought I recognised you from another thread. I'm not having a go.

Liberosis

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I would say you aren't catholic once you start picking and choosing which bits of catholic dogma you want to believe and which bits you don't. For example a lot of people have given up the belief that you should put people to death for working on the sabbath (Exodus 35:2), which is strange because it's the unquestionable word of God.

So anyway for me, if you stop believing in such things then you're no longer catholic (but you may still believe in 'a god' of course), which in fairness doesn't leave many true catholics in Ireland today :-)

"Strange"? Really?

So if you're not a homicidal nutcase who doesn't go door to door executing people for working on a Saturday then you're not a catholic.

We've given up that belief because it's crazy and society has evolved. The church would be fecked out of it very fast if they wanted to reinforce those laws.

mud

I'm not Catholic when I support and encourage my friends undergoing IVF.

I'm not Catholic when I only attend a church to bear witness to hatches, matches and dispatches.

I'm not a Catholic when I speak out about bad practices within the church and the education system.

I'm not a Catholic but the rest of my family are. Militantly so.

I'll be ticking the 'no religion' box hidden away there where you may not look for it.

ginger_hammer

A very happy 'no religion' household with me

boobar

Liberosis wrote: »

"Strange"? Really?

So if you're not a homicidal nutcase who doesn't go door to door executing people for working on a Saturday then you're not a catholic.

We've given up that belief because it's crazy and society has evolved. The church would be fecked out of it very fast if they wanted to reinforce those laws.

Don't be ridiculous....it's Sunday not Saturday.

Huntergonzo

beach_walker wrote: »

How very charitable from the atheists.

So is it just Catholicism that you guys spend your time defining who can and can't identify themselves as such, or do you bring these skills to other groups in society?

Who said I identify as an atheist? Why did you make that massive assumption? Why the 'us and them' mentality?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I'm not madly gone on an organisation that protects child molesters and goes out of their way to avoid dealing with the anguish they have caused. That's before we even get to the total bull**** that is the Bible.

Huntergonzo

Liberosis wrote: »

"Strange"? Really?

So if you're not a homicidal nutcase who doesn't go door to door executing people for working on a Saturday then you're not a catholic.

We've given up that belief because it's crazy and society has evolved. The church would be fecked out of it very fast if they wanted to reinforce those laws.

But all I'm saying is those are the words of God according to the bible which catholics are supposed to follow. Now of course society has moved on and it continues to move on but how far away from the catholic dogma do we have to get before people start dropping the catholic tag and why is it ok to abandon the word of God in the first place, did God get it wrong?

Liberosis

boobar wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous....it's Sunday not Saturday.

It's actually Saturday. In the Hebrew calendar, Sunday was the first day and god rested on the seventh: Saturday.

Skylinehead

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Mod:

Thread is not about the RCC abuse scandals and cover ups. Back on topic.

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I'm not madly gone on an organisation that protects child molesters and goes out of their way to avoid dealing with the anguish they have caused. That's before we even get to the total bull**** that is the Bible.

*taps sign*

suicide_circus

Catholicism accepts that much of the bible cannot be taken literally and that most of the creationist stuff are just stories. The Vatican is actually very accepting of the scientific method and is extremely sceptical of things like miracles.

I think to be a legitimate catholic, at a minimum, you need the following;

*Belief in the God of Abahamic tradition

*Belief that Jesus is the son of that God and that he was born of a virgin and died by a predetermined blood sacrifice to appease his own father and then rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

*Belief in transubstantiation - that the bread and wine LITERALLY become the body and blood of Christ during the mass

*Belief that salvation requires faith AND good works.

*Belief in the papacy - that the pope is the legitimate representative of God on earth.

We won't even go near stuff like saints, prophets, the old testament or the ins and outs of the life of Jesus, the above list is the minimum requirement to qualify.

Now I don't think any "sin" disbarres you from saying you're a catholic. You can do all that stuff, sex before marriage, theft, murder etc - you're just a BAD catholic. But if you in your heart of hearts don't honestly believe all of the above very basic pieces of doctrine, I don't see how in good conscience you could tick the catholic box.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Skylinehead wrote: »

*taps sign*

I'm aware we aren't supposed to respond in thread but surely this is a legitimate complaint about the Catholic Church?

kneemos

mud wrote: »

I'm not Catholic when I support and encourage my friends undergoing IVF.

I'm not Catholic when I only attend a church to bear witness to hatches, matches and dispatches.

I'm not a Catholic when I speak out about bad practices within the church and the education system.

I'm not a Catholic but the rest of my family are. Militantly so.

I'll be ticking the 'no religion' box hidden away there where you may not look for it.

It is well hidden in truth.Should be on top of the "other"box .

eviltwin

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I'm aware we aren't supposed to respond in thread but surely this is a legitimate complaint about the Catholic Church?

I think it's very valid, it's the reason I left the church, it's the reason a lot of people started distancing themselves and it was the beginning of the end in many ways of church power. Up until the sex abuse scandal I still went to mass, I didn't believe but it was a habit I kept up. Once the truth came out I was done. I couldn't listen to someone pontificating knowing that.

housetypeb

suicide_circus wrote: »

...I think to be a legitimate catholic, at a minimum, you need the following;

*Belief in the God of Abahamic tradition

*Belief that Jesus is the son of that God and that he was born of a virgin and died by a predetermined blood sacrifice to appease his own father and then rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

*Belief in transubstantiation - that the bread and wine LITERALLY become the body and blood of Christ during the mass

*Belief that salvation requires faith AND good works.

*Belief in the papacy - that the pope is the legitimate representative of God on earth...

A true catholic must also not interpret the bible but accept what the teachings of the catholic church tell him it means.He can read it all he likes-just don't go putting his own slant into what he thinks it means:D
All catholics must submit to the teachings of the Magisterium. They are required to give that teaching religious submission

From Wiki
In Catholicism, the magisterium is the authority to lay down what is the authentic teaching of the Church.[1][2] For the Catholic Church, that authority is vested uniquely by the pope and by the bishops who are in communion with the correct and true teachings of the faith.[3] Sacred Scripture and Tradition "make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God, which is entrusted to the Church",[4] and the magisterium is not independent of this, since "all that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is derived from this single deposit of faith."[5]

Skylinehead

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I'm aware we aren't supposed to respond in thread but surely this is a legitimate complaint about the Catholic Church?

It is a legitimate complaint, but that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about (as far as I can tell!) what defines a Catholic.

Back on topic please!

realdanbreen

Knasher wrote: »

Seems like a rather odd way of deciding if something is contentious or not.

What , the fact that very few people with real lives are bothered by it?

wehuntmonsters

foggy_lad wrote: »

once you are baptised you are a catholic till you die!

The church used to allow people to renounce their baptismal vows that were made on their behalf by parents etc <b>but so many were doing it they stopped allowing it.</b>

Sounds like a cult to me. I certainly will be ticking the No Religion box.

Knasher

realdanbreen wrote: »

What , the fact that very few people with real lives are bothered by it?

There has been plenty of talk about school admission policies. But apparently it isn't contentious if TDs don't have it on their shopping list when they form a government?

Spanish Eyes

Sorry haven't read the whole thread.

But, (apart from my census enumerator not finding me home three times already!)

The questions should be -

Were you born a Catholic and baptised as such?

Did you go to a Catholic School?

Do you still observe the Catholic religion now?

Do you consider yourself a Catholic by tradition, but not by observance?

(Hatches, matches, dispatches, and school entry, for some, do not mean you are a Catholic!) Geddit.

We need to find out who are practising and non practising really I think.

RDM_83 again

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

We need to find out who are practising and non practising really I think.

Why? I mean if people put down Catholic on the census form they presumably think of themselves as Catholic even if they are not particularly proactive about it.

Hercule Poirot

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Why? I mean if people put down Catholic on the census form they presumably think of themselves as Catholic even if they are not particularly proactive about it.

Because the government uses the census numbers regarding Catholics as an excuse to maintain the relationship between church and state in our public school systems - if less people identified as Catholic they would be under pressure to remove this relationship, this would mainly affect rural areas in which there is virtually no other option but to send your child to a Catholic school

RDM_83 again

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

Because the government uses the census numbers regarding Catholics as an excuse to maintain the relationship between church and state in our public school systems - if less people identified as Catholic they would be under pressure to remove this relationship, this would mainly affect rural areas in which there is virtually no other option but to send your child to a Catholic school

But anybody that puts down Catholic on their census is likely fairly happy for their children to go to a Catholic school so its an honest opinion the census isn't their to measure what you want people to think, its to measure what they actually think.
As another poster pointed out there hasn't been a massive push by TD's on the issue of removing schools patronage thing, if there was the level of support that Boards would lead you to presume it would be on every TD seeking reelections leaflets as the first item.
Realistically I think there is a demand for non dom or educate together but we have a healthy growing population and there has also been a growing demand (at a slightly lesser rate) for religious schools.

r93kaey5p2izun

I think the census should ask people directly to rank their choice of school type rather than second guessing people's preferences based on a completely different question.

I'll be ticking the no religion option anyway.

osarusan

Walter Large Rhino wrote: »

I think the census should ask people directly to rank their choice of school type rather than second guessing people's preferences based on a completely different question.

If the census information does play a role in determining which different types of schools are provided, this is absolutely spot on.