When aren't you a Catholic?

PlainP wrote: »

It becomes an issue when you have mammy and daddy filling in the form for the household.

Mammy and daddy may still be practicing and they may still believe that dearest son/daughter is still practicing and therefore fill in the form that all in the household are catholic.

I think this is where the fallacy arises and this may be the biggest hurdle in getting the numbers to match up.

Ah I don't accept this at all. I've been hearing this one for the past 3 census's. While I do accept this might happen, let's be honest are you really telling me the majority of atheists are still living at home with their parents :pac: and afraid to speak out to them about it? Like 6.7% (iirc) put down no religion last time around, how many of the rest do you suppose were suppressed in such a manner?

henryporter

beach_walker wrote: »

How's it skewing the results? There's a question and people tick which they think applies to them. Just because the majority don't agree with you, it doesn't imply the results are wrong and it's hardly up to you to judge who is and isn't a Catholic/Protestant/Muslim whatever.

86% of the population are Catholic according to Census 2011 as opposed to the 18% regularly attending Mass - if that's not skewed then I need a new dictionary. Practice what ya preach and all that.

Into The Blue

beach_walker wrote: »

Ah I don't accept this at all. I've been hearing this one for the past 3 census's. While I do accept this might happen, let's be honest are you really telling me the majority of atheists are still living at home with their parents :pac: and afraid to speak out to them about it? Like 6.7% (iirc) put down no religion last time around, how many of the rest do you suppose were suppressed in such a manner?

They just think the Irish way of life is a catholic way of life.. We've debated more about religion in this thread than most over 50's have in their entire lives

darkpagandeath

I thought it was Never ones you are in you can never leave. You just become none practising.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I thought it was Never ones you are in you can never leave. You just become none practising.

Notice who says that, though. If I start a club and you are a member, and you leave the club, and I insist you're still a member, you are entitled to tell me to stick my unwanted membership up my anal sphincter along with my club charter and rules.

I was part of a marriage once where my ex-husband continued to insist that I was still married to him despite the fact that I had obtained a completed and irrevocable divorce, and he claimed that he was unable to remarry. Well, his funeral.

henryporter wrote: »

86% of the population are Catholic according to Census 2011 as opposed to the 18% regularly attending Mass - if that's not skewed then I need a new dictionary. Practice what ya preach and all that.

I try to! Where's the 18% from? Regardless as has been gone over and over, you don't necessarily need to regularly attend Mass regularly to be a Catholic. Neither you or I are in any position to tell a person what their faith is or isn't.

PlainP

beach_walker wrote: »

Ah I don't accept this at all. I've been hearing this one for the past 3 census's. While I do accept this might happen, let's be honest are you really telling me the majority of atheists are still living at home with their parents :pac: and afraid to speak out to them about it? Like 6.7% (iirc) put down no religion last time around, how many of the rest do you suppose were suppressed in such a manner?

I doubt it is anything to do with fear. It's the same thing that other people have said on this thread. The parents believe that once baptized you are a Catholic forever no matter what the other person may feel about it.This is how my own mother feels no matter what I say to tell her that she is wrong!

This is why they will always tick the Catholic box.

PlainP

beach_walker wrote: »

I try to! Where's the 18% from? Regardless as has been gone over and over, you don't necessarily need to regularly attend Mass regularly to be a Catholic. Neither you or I are in any position to tell a person what their faith is or isn't.

Yet my parents baptized me into a faith that I do not want to be part of! Go figure...

PlainP wrote: »

I doubt it is anything to do with fear. It's the same thing that other people have said on this thread. The parents believe that once baptized you are a Catholic forever no matter what the other person may feel about it.This is how my own mother feels no matter what I say to tell her that she is wrong!

This is why they will always tick the Catholic box.

Yeah but you're missing my point. What are the numbers of people who are incorrectly marked as such? I remember hearing this over 15 years ago and I'm sure it goes back further. Presumably those people in the meantime would have moved out and marked their own census forms (hell even time for them to start their own families since!) yet there's never been the "surge" reflected in the results.

henryporter

beach_walker wrote: »

I try to! Where's the 18% from? Regardless as has been gone over and over, you don't necessarily need to regularly attend Mass regularly to be a Catholic. Neither you or I are in any position to tell a person what their faith is or isn't.

To be fair that 18% figure is for Dublin - about 34% nationally in 2013 according to the Catholic Herald

Funny when the shoe is on the other foot the old 'You shouldn't preach your beliefs to anyone' argument comes out - tell that to the Spanish Inquisition (or more recently Pope Francis trying to save Cuba from the Rolling Stones)

Liberosis

Doesn't the story go that Jesus was baptized as an adult? I think that if people are to be baptized, they should be adults who understand what the sacrament of baptism is. Pouring water over the head of a baby who couldn't possibly comprehend what is being said or done around them is ridiculous.

The church teaches that unbaptized baby's who die in infancy go to hell, that they are born sinful and need to be cleansed. I personally don't fancy worshiping a god who would condemn a flippin innocent child to hell because he didn't have magical water poured over his head.

Also, if the church does keep numerical baptismal records and these numbers contradict the census data, how do they respond? If 500,000 people tick the catholic box but their figure is 2,500,000 Irish catholics, do they just reject the census, since one cannot renounce their baptismal vows?

OldMrBrennan83

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I can't really understand the scramble from either the hardline Catholics or atheists to dismiss those who aren't fervent Catholics and have them say no religion in the Census.

Surely for the people who want to lessen the powers of the church having members who are more forward thinking and less dogmatic will further their goals. If the church is ever to move forward on issues like contraception or homophobia then the a LA carte Catholics are a good thing.

And likewise for the hardcore Catholic brigade surely having people who tick yes despite only going to mass twice a year is still beneficial.

Jayop wrote: »

I can't really understand the scramble from either the hardline Catholics or atheists to dismiss those who aren't fervent Catholics and have them say no religion in the Census.

Surely for the people who want to lessen the powers of the church having members who are more forward thinking and less dogmatic will further their goals. If the church is ever to move forward on issues like contraception or homophobia then the a LA carte Catholics are a good thing.

And likewise for the hardcore Catholic brigade surely having people who tick yes despite only going to mass twice a year is still beneficial.

Beneficial only to preserving the power of the Catholic Church over public policy in this country. Where you decide to plunk your butt on a pew is your business, but if you think the goverment and religion should be less entangled, there is really only one good way to go about telling the government so using the Census form.

Edit: I suppose there's always writing in "Pastafarian" under "Other".

Liberosis wrote: »

Also, if the church does keep numerical baptismal records and these numbers contradict the census data, how do they respond? If 500,000 people tick the catholic box but their figure is 2,500,000 Irish catholics, do they just reject the census, since one cannot renounce their baptismal vows?

I really think you're in loo-laa land if you think the Church keeps an active tally of the amount of Catholics in the Republic of Ireland. Consider what they would need to actively track

1) The amount of baptisms per year.
2) Somehow keep a track of each of these throughout their lives so as to properly remove them from the tally on their death. (again remember, there is no Catholic directory which makes this step neigh on impossible)
3) Pay particular attention to parishes/archdioceses which straddle the border and update the tally with same (who's living on which side)

That's just off the top of my head, not to mention the idea of "rejecting the census" is a bit off and something which in this country is seemingly solely the preview of atheists.

team_actimel

Most people my age aren't Catholics the vast majority of the time but are "devout" Catholics when they're getting married licking up to the parish priest :P

These days I'm never a Catholic, have no faith in the Catholic Church whatsoever!

Permabear

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Speedwell wrote: »

Beneficial only to preserving the power of the Catholic Church over public policy in this country. Where you decide to plunk your butt on a pew is your business, but if you think the goverment and religion should be less entangled, there is really only one good way to go about telling the government so using the Census form.

No you should be honest in the census form regardless of what your political views are. If you see yourself as catholic then put that down.

I don't feel the church should have any influence over state matters btw.

Jayop wrote: »

No you should be honest in the census form regardless of what your political views are. If you see yourself as catholic then put that down.

I don't feel the church should have any influence over state matters btw.

Oh well, to me honesty is putting down the answer that is closest to my opinion about public policy in an instrument designed to gauge people's probable opinions about matters of public policy, but you do as you think wisest.

Speedwell wrote: »

Oh well, to me honesty is putting down the answer that is closest to my opinion about public policy in an instrument designed to gauge people's probable opinions about matters of public policy, but you do as you think wisest.

I think what you put on the ballot paper last month will have a lot more influence on public policy than what you put on the census paper next month.

Jayop wrote: »

I think what you put on the ballot paper last month will have a lot more influence on public policy than what you put on the census paper next month.

I'm an immigrant and could not put anything on the ballot paper last month. Come again?

Permabear

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Speedwell wrote: »

I'm an immigrant and could not put anything on the ballot paper last month. Come again?

True, depends where you come from like.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html#l862a3

British citizens may vote at Dáil elections, European elections and local elections;
Other European Union (EU) citizens may vote at European and local elections*
Non-EU citizens may vote at local elections only.

Jayop wrote: »

True, depends where you come from like.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/introduction_to_the_irish_system/right_to_vote.html#l862a3

British citizens may vote at Dáil elections, European elections and local elections;
Other European Union (EU) citizens may vote at European and local elections*
Non-EU citizens may vote at local elections only.

Yup, I'm a Yank. So close and yet so far.

Permabear, that's a persuasive argument and I can only say that the two questions are different in scope, intention, and probable impact. I could make a case for why they should be treated differently in this respect, but I'm considering what you said.

Permabear wrote: »

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Is there anywhere where someone can view the census form?

Jayop wrote: »

Is there anywhere where someone can view the census form?

Yup, linked here. http://census.ie/the-census-and-you/the-census-form/ Scroll down for the actual sample forms.

kneemos

Speedwell wrote: »

Yup, linked here. http://census.ie/the-census-and-you/the-census-form/ Scroll down for the actual sample forms.

There is no option for no religion,just 'other,write in your religion'.