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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

.ak

There has been an awakening ... Have you felt it?

Cont. from here.

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Journeyman_1

We also need a win here to retain our spot in the top 2.

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

McGrath played against Glasgow, Connacht and then Munster would be three weeks in a row. Reddan has had hardly any game time in recent weeks, so he could use a run out.

McGrath is much improved but Reddan is still the better SH, and damn it all I want us to win this match.

I really don't think Reddan is the better scrum half any more, particularly in tight games like the one I'm expecting this weekend. I think a lot of people are putting the blame on McGrath for the failings of Ryan/Ruddock last weekend, failings which Reddan normally has a much tougher time dealing with, and I don't anticipate the same problems occurring this weekend in the back row.

Also I think Reddan would give us much more off the bench for the last 20 minutes than McGrath would.

Saying all that, Reddan and Sexton have a long-standing partnership and understanding and that may be worth more than any of the above.

former total

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I really don't think Reddan is the better scrum half any more, particularly in tight games like the one I'm expecting this weekend. I think a lot of people are putting the blame on McGrath for the failings of Ryan/Ruddock last weekend, failings which Reddan normally has a much tougher time dealing with, and I don't anticipate the same problems occurring this weekend in the back row.

Also I think Reddan would give us much more off the bench for the last 20 minutes than McGrath would.

Saying all that, Reddan and Sexton have a long-standing partnership and understanding and that may be worth more than any of the above.

I think we definitely lost a lot of control at the base with Ruddock playing 8 and that had an effect on McGrath's game, but McGrath's persistent box-kicking into the wind was lunacy and that's the main criticism that has been levelled at him.

He's improved no end this season but his decision-making has been suspect at times. Reddan is still well ahead of him IMO.

Number 137

With Madigan leaving at the end of the season and also in questionable form, is there any case for having Cathal Marsh on the bench for the remainder of the season to get him more gametime ahead of next season?

irishbucsfan

former total wrote: »

I think we definitely lost a lot of control at the base with Ruddock playing 8 and that had an effect on McGrath's game, but McGrath's persistent box-kicking into the wind was lunacy and that's the main criticism that has been levelled at him.

He's improved no end this season but his decision-making has been suspect at times. Reddan is still well ahead of him IMO.

Reddan's box kicking is equally poor. Cost us a game against the Dragons last season...

I think McGrath has been better in his consecutive starting periods this season than any scrum half has been for us for a number of years. I think Reddan has improved as well though to be fair.

Buer

Number 137 wrote: »

With Madigan leaving at the end of the season and also in questionable form, is there any case for having Cathal Marsh on the bench for the remainder of the season to get him more gametime ahead of next season?

There absolutely is in our games against Treviso and Edinburgh anyway. Perhaps should even be starting the Treviso game depending on what the picture is like in the league.

He needs as much exposure as possible. If we're signing a scrum half next season, we're probably not going to be signing a NIQ player who can cover 10 unless Nacewa steps in on occasion. Marsh needs more time there as quickly as possible.

former total

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Reddan's box kicking is equally poor. Cost us a game against the Dragons last season...

I think McGrath has been better in his consecutive starting periods this season than any scrum half has been for us for a number of years. I think Reddan has improved as well though to be fair.

I'm not criticising the execution of his box kicks, just the decision making that prompted him to do it repeatedly when it was clearly a very bad idea.

CatFromHue

Number 137 wrote: »

With Madigan leaving at the end of the season and also in questionable form, is there any case for having Cathal Marsh on the bench for the remainder of the season to get him more gametime ahead of next season?

Considering the way Madigan played on the weekend is a good enough reason for Marsh to be on the bench ahead of him from now on in.

stephen_n

former total wrote: »

I think so? He trained yesterday anyway.

I wasn't sure considering he wasn't in the squad last weekend, thought he might have picked up a knock. Would have assumed he would be ahead of both the starting locks on Saturday.

CatFromHue wrote: »

Considering the way Madigan played on the weekend is a good enough reason for Marsh to be on the bench ahead of him from now on in.

Well considering Marsh didn't even make the bench last weekend, I don't think there is any real faith in him.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What timing issues exactly are you seeing? I just don't see it. I think McGrath was better last weekend than Reddan has been in those types of games for pretty much his whole career. The only place I'd really worry about Munster is their ability to carry around the fringes through Murray and their back row and I'd also see McGrath as a much better option for combatting that. I'd also see Reddan as a much better bench option than McGrath.

I could see them going for Reddan because of his experience, but I'd disagree with it for those reasons.

For me I thought he was taking the ball out of the ruck too quickly. High tempo is all well and good but our pack weren't getting there quick enough, pods weren't set and as such we coughed up a tonne of ball. Rather than adjust to that he kept going and it really hurt us I felt. We never got to build momentum which is a pity because when we were set we were bossing the collisions.

Reddan, who is a tradiotionally unforgiving scrummie in terms of upping the tempo, actually slowed things down and we started to make more inroads.

Of course experience and game time will help McGrath but it feels like I've been saying that for ages. Personally I'd rather Cooney right now.

CMOTDibbler

.ak wrote: »

For me I thought he was taking the ball out of the ruck too quickly. High tempo is all well and good but our pack weren't getting there quick enough, pods weren't set and as such we coughed up a tonne of ball. Rather than adjust to that he kept going and it really hurt us I felt. We never got to build momentum which is a pity because when we were set we were bossing the collisions.

Reddan, who is a tradiotionally unforgiving scrummie in terms of upping the tempo, actually slowed things down and we started to make more inroads.

Of course experience and game time will help McGrath but it feels like I've been saying that for ages. Personally I'd rather Cooney right now.

Reddan is just so experienced though. He's already got his eye on the next two moves before he gets to the ruck and he almost always knows which way to send the ball, although sometimes he's gone the wrong way when the openings are in the other direction. Cooney I thought was very good under Joe and was as quick or even quicker than Reddan. He never really got off the ground when MOC took over and I was really disappointed when he went to Connacht.

McGrath is almost there. He's gaining valuable experience and he doesn't really have far to go if he keeps on the curve he seems to be on.

Muligatawney

I've tried to google it but to no avail, is there any indication as to how long Marty Moore's contract is with Wasps? With Bealham and Furlong looking competent, if not fantastic, at international level I wonder will he struggle to get a look in at all until he comes back.

Bazzo

Muligatawney wrote: »

I've tried to google it but to no avail, is there any indication as to how long Marty Moore's contract is with Wasps? With Bealham and Furlong looking competent, if not fantastic, at international level I wonder will he struggle to get a look in at all until he comes back.

Wasn't the whole reason he left because Wasps were offering him 3 years while the IRFU would only offer him 2?

Well, that and I'm sure he's on big money.

[Deleted User]

Bazzo wrote: »

Wasn't the whole reason he left because Wasps were offering him 3 years while the IRFU would only offer him 2?

Well, that and I'm sure he's on big money.

The IRFU were offering a fairly paltry contract is the rumour, wasn't just the extra year. I don't blame him at all.

[Deleted User]

Interested Observer wrote: »

The IRFU were offering a fairly paltry contract is the rumour, wasn't just the extra year. I don't blame him at all.

I think Earls and Zebo are both grand players but very replaceable from an Ireland perspective. Tight Head is not an area we have a lot of depth and I find it frustrating that the bank was broken for two wingers and not for a player in a historically difficult position for us (albeit a rumour).

Even if he didn't stay at Leinster, he would be far more important to an Ireland province than Earls or Zebo will ever be.

Surely the games against Wales and France and the damage not having an international quality TH did in those games reinforces this.

I'm sure there are plenty of variables, but Leinster got impressively screwed this season by departures, far more so than any other province.

awec

Neither Earls nor Zebo are hardly replaceable. Earls especially.

They'd be massive losses. If you're trying to say you'd rather the money was spent on Moore rather than Earls and Zebo I'd have to strongly disagree.

I mean the IRFU definitely need to get it together a bit and realise these two year deals aren't going to cut the mustard any more for players with options, but I wouldn't trade Zebo or Earls for Moore.

[Deleted User]

awec wrote: »

Neither Earls nor Zebo are hardly replaceable. Earls especially.

They'd be massive losses. If you're trying to say you'd rather the money was spent on Moore rather than Earls and Zebo I'd have to strongly disagree.

I mean the IRFU definitely need to get it together a bit and realise these two year deals aren't going to cut the mustard any more for players with options, but I wouldn't trade Zebo or Earls for Moore.

Bowe, Trimble, Fitz, Gilroy, Healy, Kearney Jnr, Olding are all capable replacements for Earls and Zebo.

Moore is the only TH that has shown himself to be operating at close to the level of Ross. It's nothing to do with what I'd "rather", it's what I think the IRFU should be spending their money on.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

Bowe, Trimble, Fitz, Gilroy, Healy, Kearney Jnr, Olding are all capable replacements for Earls and Zebo.

Moore is the only TH that has shown himself to be operating at close to the level of Ross. It's nothing to do with what I'd "rather", it's what I think the IRFU should be spending their money on.

Not sure if serious or not but there's a huge doubt of anyone in your list bar Bowe & Fitz being real options to replace Earls or Zebo.

The rest might do a job if required but that's about it.

[Deleted User]

phog wrote: »

Not sure if serious or not but there's a huge doubt of anyone in your list bar Bowe & Fitz being real options to replace Earls or Zebo.

The rest might do a job if required but that's about it.

Not sure if you're being serious but as it stands, Trimble is already there and Dave Kearney has been selected ahead of Zebo before. Olding is a highly rated talent that no doubt is stepping up and we've plenty more coming through at wing.

The point I was making however is that we've had 2 tight heads holding down the fort for 16 years and Moore looks like the next best options moving forward. I think I've been extremely non provincial by stating my main issue is that he wasn't kept in Ireland regardless of province. I think Moore is dramatically more in demand than Zebo and Earls and there are overwhelming facts to prove that I am correct.

The Rape of Lucretia

phog wrote: »

Not sure if serious or not but there's a huge doubt of anyone in your list bar Bowe & Fitz being real options to replace Earls or Zebo.

The rest might do a job if required but that's about it.

Earls and Zebo have themselves been only 'do a job if required' type players too though. Neither has ever been a BOD/Ross/Paulie/Jonny/Darce/Kearney/Bowe type first choice automatic selection for Ireland over a sustained period. Despite several opportunities each and a good bunch of caps nonetheless, to show they are important parts of Ireland succeeding in important games.
So with neither Earls or Zebo are we talking about top drawer players. And not really that far above, if above at all, the alternatives Venjur cites.

[Deleted User]

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

the alternatives Venj cites.

Cough

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

Not sure if you're being serious but as it stands, Trimble is already there and Dave Kearney has been selected ahead of Zebo before. Olding is a highly rated talent that no doubt is stepping up and we've plenty more coming through at wing.

The point I was making however is that we've had 2 tight heads holding down the fort for 16 years and Moore looks like the next best options moving forward. I think I've been extremely non provincial by stating my main issue is that he wasn't kept in Ireland regardless of province. I think Moore is dramatically more in demand than Zebo and Earls and there are overwhelming facts to prove that I am correct.

I was 100% serious but I think I was hooked without realising it. I'm out.

awec

Ah lads wise up.

Earls and Zebo are head and shoulders above the likes of Kearney Jnr, Gilroy and Healy.

Trimble and Bowe are done. Fitz is as good as neither of them.

Olding is not ready to be a test level full back and he isn't a winger.

Earls and Zebo are really Ireland's only two back three players who have a sniff of being a Lion in 2017 so if we are saying our only two potential Lions in the back three are expendable then I really don't know. If people want to complain about money being spent and Moore being let go then perhaps fingers are better pointed at the three year deal given to perpetually injured and in pretty awful form Cian Healy instead given that he is now comfortably second choice with both his province and Ireland.

Teferi

Fitz isn't as good as Earls or Zebo? He's better than Zebo and as good as Earls, different skillsets though.

[Deleted User]

awec wrote: »

Ah lads wise up.

Sorry, I forgot we're not allowed have opinions. My bad. Sure throw on the week ban there.

awec wrote: »

Ah lads wise up.

Earls and Zebo are head and shoulders above the likes of Kearney Jnr, Gilroy and Healy.

Wasn't it you who was pointing out Gilroy's try scoring record and and attacking threat whilst lamenting his exclusion on several if not multiple occasions?

awec wrote: »

Ah lads wise up.

Trimble and Bowe are done.

Trimble has been much more commended than Earls for his contributions this 6N unfortunately for your arguments sake.

awec wrote: »

Ah lads wise up.

Olding is not ready to be a test level full back and he isn't a winger.

I thought I read a post by former Ireland coaching staff member Les Kiss that Olding is the real deal and he won't be leaving Ulster. Sure sounds ready to step up?

awec wrote: »

Ah lads wise up.

Earls and Zebo are really Ireland's only two back three players who have a sniff of being a Lion in 2017

Are Earls and Zebo on anyone's horizons for Lions 2017 right now? Anyone? At all?

awec wrote: »

Ah lads wise up.

If people want to complain about money being spent and Moore being let go then perhaps fingers are better pointed at the three year deal given to perpetually injured and in pretty awful form Cian Healy instead given that he is now comfortably second choice with both his province and Ireland.

I think a lot of people are wondering about that, myself included. But at the same time, unlike anyone who has been mentioned in this post - at least he was at one time World Class.

Journeyman_1

One argument for Moore being more valuable than Zebo/Earls is the drop-off in both depth and quality in each position. At TH, it seems like if Ross isn't playing we automatically lose the scrum battle, or maybe feign parity and then die in the last 20. White did alright in the last year or so, but in all honesty he isn't good enough. Furlong shows promise and is great around the park but is getting minced at scrum-time at international level. Bealham did OK at LH in the 6N and really improved Connachts scrum at the weekend, but he is raw and untested really. Moore is the only alternative that wouldn't noticeably weaken the scrum and is much better in the loose than Ross. The difference in quality on the wing/23 just isn't felt as strongly as those positions are not as crucial as TH.

This is not an endorsement for chucking the Munster boys and getting Moore back fwiw, obviously Earls and Zebo are important to Irish rugby, just maybe not as important. I think Ireland would be better off with Moore instead of one of the others for sure, both is probably close.

former total

Zebo and Earls are more important to Munster than Moore is to Leinster. They had to be kept.

Neither Zebo nor Earls are Lions in waiting based on current form.

[Deleted User]

former total wrote: »

Zebo and Earls are more important to Munster than Moore is to Leinster. They had to be kept.

Neither Zebo nor Earls are Lions in waiting based on current form.

Exactly my point. Central contracts should be used to promote the national team, and retaining Zebo and Earls at the expense of Moore would appear to be a very poor piece of business.

former total

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Exactly my point. Central contracts should be used to promote the national team, and retaining Zebo and Earls at the expense of Moore would appear to be a very poor piece of business.

Ehhh, no. I'm saying keeping Earls and Zebo was more important than Moore. I'm not sure they're mutually exclusive though??

Zebo is only on a provincial deal anyway, not a central.

Neil3030

I'm starting to think there's pressure on the national selectors to play centrally contracted players. When you look at the disproportionate amount of gametime given to players not in great form (Kearney, Trimble, C Healy) during the 6N etc - not a huge surprise that they were all centrally contracted. So I'm not sure I like the idea of central contracts being used because a certain province needs help to keep important players. This could (if I'm right about the pressure on selectors) wind up being to the detriment of the national team, no matter who the coach may be.