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Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

Timmaay

24/6/16

Recently we saw three posters close their accounts over disagreements in the dairy threads. While there is a lot of frustration and discontent with current milk prices and the processing industry, the recent tendency for dairy threads to become tit-for-tat arguments isn’t tolerable for those not involved.

All farming sectors go through difficult periods and during such times there may need to be changes in how threads are moderated.

Dairy threads are going to be more closely monitored and subject to stricter moderation for a while.

To that end we won’t tolerate baiting of posters, constantly reviving old arguments, posters with agendas or crusading for a cause.

Whether it’s discussion of the business or politics of the dairy or other sectors, we expect civility and tolerance toward each other and other opinions as diversity of opinion is needed as a source of different ways of looking at a situation.

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress." - Joseph Joubert

Also please be aware that what you may post as light-hearted banter can be read totally differently by someone adversely affected by the subject matter and evoke a reaction you hadn’t intended.

The ‘Off-Season’ forum, and its anonymous posting, is available for anyone to chat about their situation.

The Mod Team.

10 away from the 10000 posts! Frazz I think it's fair to say this thread has been a success!

Indeed it was! First thread can be found here- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056872221

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Comments

mahoney_j

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

97.8 UFL
Dawg, you mentioned rape and distillers not suitable with grass. Why that.
The meal is made up of 50% maize and barley, but there's 25% made up with distillers and rape
MegaFat Is just another Volac (i think make it) product like megalac. But I gave up on megalac years ago as it would strip BCS for Litres. Wondering now is MegaFat pulling the fat kgs from somewhere.
I wished I studied nutrition

I thought that last year Clyde so I reduced its content from 5% to 2.5%!.thought it worked v well through April/May as my fat was over 0.2 up by p whilst good was hit by around .05 I reckon .dung was good and solid too

Milked out

Did ye just include the megafat as standard or was it to correct an issue this year? Would ye consider leaving it out? P 3.32 be 3.98 here at the min currently finishing 16p off the shelf nut with yeasac in it and will be switching to 14.5p own mix nut in next load.

RightTurnClyde

Milked out wrote: »

Did ye just include the megafat as standard or was it to correct an issue this year? Would ye consider leaving it out? P 3.32 be 3.98 here at the min currently finishing 16p off the shelf nut with yeasac in it and will be switching to 14.5p own mix nut in next load.

Included to try and boost the fats. My inclusion rate is just shy of 2%. How are you getting on with litres

freedominacup

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

97.8 UFL
Dawg, you mentioned rape and distillers not suitable with grass. Why that.
The meal is made up of 50% maize and barley, but there's 25% made up with distillers and rape
MegaFat Is just another Volac (i think make it) product like megalac. But I gave up on megalac years ago as it would strip BCS for Litres. Wondering now is MegaFat pulling the fat kgs from somewhere.
I wished I studied nutrition

I think it's to do with where in the digestive system the pr is absorbed. This is where you talk about the quality of the protein. I think id the protein is rumen degradable and there's any energy defecit the nitrogen can be stripped from the protein to create a carbohydrate which actually yields very little extra energy because the process of stripping the nitrogen used a fair amount of energy. Dawg will probably be along shortly to put me straight. Stuff fades after 25 years. You know that you should do things a certain way you just forget some of the science.

yosemitesam1

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Ditto, arse just fell out of pr here too. 29ltrs @3.12p 3.98f. 5.5kgs of16%nut and 4kgsdm of HDM silage. No urea test in coop here so going to see if I can get milk independently tested for urea (and p&f) as well. Cows are in cracking condition, dungs perfect. A lot of head scratching going on.
I'm trying to isolate changes from last year, yes silage is in but it's not much and is very high quality, cows are walking 4kms a day, could this be an issue, megafat in this year, could this be lifting fat at a cost to protein. I'm sure that cutting cold is burning energy as well
I'm at a loss

a 4km walk plus the extra energy needed to graze will increase their requirements by 1ufl, thats the same amount of energy needed for 2l of milk with those solids, cold wont make any major difference to requirements unless they're wet.

yosemitesam1

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

97.8 UFL
Dawg, you mentioned rape and distillers not suitable with grass. Why that.
The meal is made up of 50% maize and barley, but there's 25% made up with distillers and rape
MegaFat Is just another Volac (i think make it) product like megalac. But I gave up on megalac years ago as it would strip BCS for Litres. Wondering now is MegaFat pulling the fat kgs from somewhere.
I wished I studied nutrition

the c:16 fats in megafat+lac (seem to be the exact same makeup) can be absorbed directly by the udder which is what gives the fat% a boost and adds to the overall energy balance of the cow. The protein% will take a hit but overall kgs of protein produced shouldnt drop by much

a lot of useful information in these:
http://www.nap.edu/catalog/9825/nutrient-requirements-of-dairy-cattle-seventh-revised-edition-2001
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjso4G6xOXLAhXCSA8KHbcoDcQQFgghMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgohardanehco.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F02%2FAnimal-Nutrition.pdf&usg=AFQjCNG4vjqxvzAYhg9Can-FledgmCIkKg&sig2=wvG8Y3YkIE5eo1sfbsc-tQ
http://ansci.cals.cornell.edu/news-events/cornell-nutrition-conference
http://www.wcds.ca/

RightTurnClyde

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

a 4km walk plus the extra energy needed to graze will increase their requirements by 1ufl, thats the same amount of energy needed for 2l of milk with those solids, cold wont make any major difference to requirements unless they're wet.

Would the energy burn for that walk affect p or is it straight litres reduction

Dawggone

I'm very busy so excuse short reply...

Ye are all grazing rich, fertilized and therefore high protein grass. Contrary to common belief crude protein in your nut does NOT contribute to milk protein, in fact when you go over a certain level it will interfere with the absorption of energy and result in decrease of milk pr.

I have a very high energy diet for housed cows so pr in feed is important for me...however when cows are on grass the opposite is true, so I now concentrate on energy intakes, like now.

To confuse things a little there are different types of maize ranging from 1.22ufl to 1.44ufl. I crimp the 1.44ufl maize to be used when cows are on grass, and add to high starch maize silage when buffering. This is exactly what you guys need. End of. Now that is not possible for ye so what to do?
Buy the highest ufl you can afford, which is easy now as energy feed is at give away prices...Coops/merchants won't agree !

When you want to balance the pr in your diet you need to balance the pdin and pdie...now I'm getting technical...so NO rumen absorbed pr like rape, distillers etc. Ye could be grazing grass with proteins of up to 26/28% so to balance you need energy energy energy.
If you have these pr sources out of balance you are phucking your aminos microbes etc etc.

So to simplify...when your cows are grazing rich grass all you need is energy. Simples.

I'm not sold on things like megafats, snake oil or salt from Tibet, because you don't need anything only a properly balanced diet and genetics.

Also watch milk urea levels...amazed that nobody enquired about excessive MU levels, but that's another discussion.

As I said before, don't mind me, I talk shyte...

Dawggone

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Would the energy burn for that walk affect p or is it straight litres reduction

All you are losing out on is dm intakes Clyde.

yosemitesam1

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Would the energy burn for that walk affect p or is it straight litres reduction

Could be either or a mixture of both, was the only change made an increase in walking by about a mile?

mahoney_j

Dawggone wrote: »

I'm very busy so excuse short reply...

Ye are all grazing rich, fertilized and therefore high protein grass. Contrary to common belief crude protein in your nut does NOT contribute to milk protein, in fact when you go over a certain level it will interfere with the absorption of energy and result in decrease of milk pr.

I have a very high energy diet for housed cows so pr in feed is important for me...however when cows are on grass the opposite is true, so I now concentrate on energy intakes, like now.

To confuse things a little there are different types of maize ranging from 1.22ufl to 1.44ufl. I crimp the 1.44ufl maize to be used when cows are on grass, and add to high starch maize silage when buffering. This is exactly what you guys need. End of. Now that is not possible for ye so what to do?
Buy the highest ufl you can afford, which is easy now as energy feed is at give away prices...Coops/merchants won't agree !

When you want to balance the pr in your diet you need to balance the pdin and pdie...now I'm getting technical...so NO rumen absorbed pr like rape, distillers etc. Ye could be grazing grass with proteins of up to 26/28% so to balance you need energy energy energy.
If you have these pr sources out of balance you are phucking your aminos microbes etc etc.

So to simplify...when your cows are grazing rich grass all you need is energy. Simples.

I'm not sold on things like megafats, snake oil or salt from Tibet, because you don't need anything only a properly balanced diet and genetics.

Also watch milk urea levels...amazed that nobody enquired about excessive MU levels, but that's another discussion.

As I said before, don't mind me, I talk shyte...

But the Shyte you preach dwag is high end stuff ,keep dishing it out !!!!!.excellent post

freedominacup

Dawggone wrote: »

I'm very busy so excuse short reply...

Ye are all grazing rich, fertilized and therefore high protein grass. Contrary to common belief crude protein in your nut does NOT contribute to milk protein, in fact when you go over a certain level it will interfere with the absorption of energy and result in decrease of milk pr.

I have a very high energy diet for housed cows so pr in feed is important for me...however when cows are on grass the opposite is true, so I now concentrate on energy intakes, like now.

To confuse things a little there are different types of maize ranging from 1.22ufl to 1.44ufl. I crimp the 1.44ufl maize to be used when cows are on grass, and add to high starch maize silage when buffering. This is exactly what you guys need. End of. Now that is not possible for ye so what to do?
Buy the highest ufl you can afford, which is easy now as energy feed is at give away prices...Coops/merchants won't agree !

When you want to balance the pr in your diet you need to balance the pdin and pdie...now I'm getting technical...so NO rumen absorbed pr like rape, distillers etc. Ye could be grazing grass with proteins of up to 26/28% so to balance you need energy energy energy.
If you have these pr sources out of balance you are phucking your aminos microbes etc etc.

So to simplify...when your cows are grazing rich grass all you need is energy. Simples.

I'm not sold on things like megafats, snake oil or salt from Tibet, because you don't need anything only a properly balanced diet and genetics.

Also watch milk urea levels...amazed that nobody enquired about excessive MU levels, but that's another discussion.

As I said before, don't mind me, I talk shyte...

I'd be in full agreement with dawg on the megalacs etc. I learned long ago not to feed anything that came in a bag to cows unless it was a min/vit supplement. Everything else was give us 25c/cow/day and we'll give you 35c of extra performance (read the small print). Never had anything other than a merchant's bill to show for the vast bulk of it and it's too expensive to sort the good from the bad. ...

Brown Podzol

freedominacup wrote: »

I'd be in full agreement with dawg on the megalacs etc. I learned long ago not to feed anything that came in a bag to cows unless it was a min/vit supplement. Everything else was give us 25c/cow/day and we'll give you 35c of extra performance (read the small print). Never had anything other than a merchant's bill to show for the vast bulk of it and it's too expensive to sort the good from the bad. ...

Friend who was involved in feed experiments with pigs in Moorepark told me that they conducted many trials with supplements and processes and while there was extra performance with many of them, the extra output never covered the extra cost over the standard soya and barley. I would prefer to spend the money on more kg's of a good quality ration.

yosemitesam1

Dawggone wrote: »

When you want to balance the pr in your diet you need to balance the pdin and pdie...now I'm getting technical...so NO rumen absorbed pr like rape, distillers etc. Ye could be grazing grass with proteins of up to 26/28% so to balance you need energy energy energy.
If you have these pr sources out of balance you are phucking your aminos microbes etc etc.

Do you leave much of a margin of error for the pdin value, I would personally think that a 90% efficiency of microbial protein production would be too much for a cow grazing very high pr grass and something around 75% (higher if protein% was closer to 18%)might be more realistic seen as how the highly soluble and rapidly degraded protein fractions will make up a higher %. This would probably only make any difference when pdi requirement is above 1.7-1.8kg/day.

attached the teagasc work on megalac+yeassac

Dawggone

This is a good thread. I'm not going to be drawn into a pseudo academic discussion on the minor points of whether Himalayan rock salt or yeucheac (!) is better.

KISS.
I'm saying what works for me...

I'm actually educated in philosophy...so if somebody wants to discuss the pre-Socratics, then fine. I don't have the time or energy to talk shyte...sorry.

Get on with it.

kowtow

Dawggone wrote:

I'm actually educated in philosophy...so if somebody wants to discuss the pre-Socratics, then fine. I don't have the time or energy to talk shyte...sorry.

All dairy farmers are educated in philosophy. It's what cows do best.

The university bit is just a beginners course.

Dawggone

kowtow wrote: »

All dairy farmers are educated in philosophy. It's what cows do best.

The university bit is just a beginners course.

You'd want to be philosophical to be doing what I spent the morning at Kt.

A dead water rat (ragondin) blocked a storm drain...thinking on buying a few nice gîtes and turning native.

bogman_bass

Dawggone wrote: »

This is a good thread. I'm not going to be drawn into a pseudo academic discussion on the minor points of whether Himalayan rock salt or yeucheac (!) is better.

KISS.
I'm saying what works for me...

I'm actually educated in philosophy...so if somebody wants to discuss the pre-Socratics, then fine. I don't have the time or energy to talk shyte...sorry.

Get on with it.

Any veiws on Searle’s Chinese Room argument?

Dawggone

bogman_bass wrote: »

Any veiws on Searle’s Chinese Room argument?

Lol.

freedominacup

Grass is a hard feed to manage. Brought in another 1.5 kg dm of silage on Mon. Cows up by 2l/hd/day in todays collection. I didn't think they were short before Mon but covers light the past couple of days. Where do you cross the supplementation/substitution line?

Dawggone

freedominacup wrote: »

Grass is a hard feed to manage. Brought in another 1.5 kg dm of silage on Mon. Cows up by 2l/hd/day in todays collection. I didn't think they were short before Mon but covers light the past couple of days. Where do you cross the supplementation/substitution line?

+1.
How many Kg of Dm do you think cows can graze, assuming plenty grass?

blue5000

Dawggone wrote: »

You'd want to be philosophical to be doing what I spent the morning at Kt.

A dead water rat (ragondin) blocked a storm drain...thinking on buying a few nice gîtes and turning native.

I saw some of those lads in S. France a few years back, about as big as a terrier? You'd be fairly philosophical alright depending on how long it was dead:eek:

jaymla627

freedominacup wrote: »

Grass is a hard feed to manage. Brought in another 1.5 kg dm of silage on Mon. Cows up by 2l/hd/day in todays collection. I didn't think they were short before Mon but covers light the past couple of days. Where do you cross the supplementation/substitution line?

I think it all depends on what your trying to achieve litres wise, your profile of cow plus weather ground your grazing is going to get took out for surpluses in may/June meaning it's not absolutely necessary to make them clean out paddocks at the expense of litres/condition score ...
Big difference in my view in how hard you can push a herd with high volume hols animals and a low volume crossbred animal, totally different levels of feeding required and dm intake needed, have a mixed bag of cows here and the little jr crosses on are 3 kgs a day while the high volume ladies are on up to 9 kgs, milk recording the other week the best hols where doing 45 litres day while the jr where doing 25 litres

Brown Podzol

Heifer calved over the weekend. She was born 6th Jan 14, 6/7 weeks before time. Can't decide if she has calved at 25months or 27months

Wouldn't normally keep a heifer calving this late but there would have been mutiny here if I sold her, she took a lot of TLC as a calf. Fine heifer now only two notches left in the kick bar when on her. A Spooky out of an Oman.

Dawggone

blue5000 wrote: »

I saw some of those lads in S. France a few years back, about as big as a terrier? You'd be fairly philosophical alright depending on how long it was dead:eek:

Was dead long enough to turn my stomach, but not long enough to decompose.
We've had 63mm since Monday and the chicken coup was about to flood... It took 3 men 5hrs to free the basta*rd.

freedominacup

Dawggone wrote: »

+1.
How many Kg of Dm do you think cows can graze, assuming plenty grass?

On the best couple of days of the year with a following wind and swards in perfect order 18kg. Generally for the next 100 days in good weather 16kg.

Had your problem with hedgehogs two years running after dry weather. Messy very messy. I'd rather washout a dozen cows than do it again.

freedominacup

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Heifer calved over the weekend. She was born 6th Jan 14, 6/7 weeks before time. Can't decide if she has calved at 25months or 27months
Wouldn't normally keep a heifer calving this late but there would have been mutiny here if I sold her, she took a lot of TLC as a calf. Fine heifer now only two notches left in the kick bar when on her. A Spooky out of an Oman.

One like that here also. Loads of tlc in the morhers garage as a calf. Would only walk beside whoever was driving the group as a calf/heifer. Calved at three years, that was two years ago. Second calf in Feb. Only consolation is that she supplied €4900 of milk during her first lactation according to the mr report. She's having some effect on the ci though.

Dawggone

freedominacup wrote: »

On the best couple of days of the year with a following wind and awards in perfect order 18kg. Generally for the next 100 days in good weather 16kg.

Had your problem with hedgehogs two years running after dry weather. Messy very messy. I'd rather washout a dozen cows than do it again.

Damn I'm allowing 18kg with 7kg maize silage and 3kg crimp. Better up the silage.

Timmaay

4900e, 15kl or so?? Thought I was doing well with the cow who gave 12kl here last year, 18month lactation tho ha.

freedominacup

Timmaay wrote: »

4900e, 15kl or so?? Thought I was doing well with the cow who gave 12kl here last year, 18month lactation tho ha.

This girls ci was 21 months. Dry for eight weeks.