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Child Item

Equal right - Losing it's balance in favour of women?

Irishcrx

Just a conversation that popped up recently when out with friends and I guess something that has been on my mind for a while now as I watch differant friends, situations etc.

Has radical feminism and a push for equal rights gained so much momentum , pressure in the press , the workplace , social media that it has actually now swung the other way and it is men that are looking at oppression?

A couple of scenario's swing to mind , the company I work for have had several pushes to be seen to be an equal opportunity employer , which they are , however this also included women in positions of ppwer (IE Unit leaders and Directors) they have often appointed women to these positions to make up their numbers balance while more qualified men were turned down for the job in favour of the news letter saying we have met the European quota - This isn't right.

Single father rights - Or lack there of, absolute joke of a system - Several friends of mine are single fathers and being dragged through hell to see their children even though they are great fathers. All the power with the ex girlfriend and the bitterness , the law says it protects the children but it really is protecting the mother and many abuse this position to exact revenge on an ex - Good father need rights equal to mothers regardless of marriage - Bad ones don't.

Add to this the rise of feminism , the extreme feminism , the talk of all men being scumbags , the belief of some that's it's ok to say horrible thing's to men , female on male domestic violence being laughed at and generally looked upon as not being as serious as male on female, a man smacks a girls ass in a club it's sexual assault , a woman does it and it's funny, from looking at these boards alone from day to day you can tell most men have become almost afraid to approach a girl or say boo to them even when they are very in the wrong.

So has it never been a worst time to be a man? Are men becoming less of men because of this? And has that balance changed to a position where it's now men in need of equal rights?

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tritium

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I've read through the whole thread in fairness. I just don't get what the point is of anyone arguing about how hard they have it based solely on their gender and how the other gender has it better because at some point in time, somewhere in the world, someone was... oppressed.

Sounds like the whole concept of male privelige

(Though the MRA also seem to have their equivalent pity party to be fair...)

Irishcrx

Billy86 wrote: »

Well by CV, I mean would most tattoo parlors not even consisder possibly considering you for a job on the basis on not having a penis?

Don't mean that to sound accusatory by the way, because it definitely does strike me as the type of industry where there would be a gender bias.

Very close friend of mine is a tattoo artist and can assure you that is one industry where they will only hire the best tattoo artists...male or female doesn't matter.

Their whole business depends on their reputation and quality of work.

orubiru

Permabear wrote: »

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Yeah, I totally agree.

Unless you are arguing that "women have it worse" or "men have it worse" then we are in complete agreement.

I was responding to: "When women are treated like human beings, everybody wins. I find it hard to be annoyed about feminism making the deck less hilarious stacked in my gender's favour. "

All I was pointing out here is that women ARE treated like human beings and that the deck is not necessarily stacked in favor of men. I used war as an example to illustrate that.

That's it. That's all.

silverharp

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't see the value in comparing a biological risk to "cultural" risks for want of a better term. Clearly these is a reasonable balance at the moment , western countries are safe for women and men wouldn't make the mistake of getting involved in a "Somme" type situation again or take notice of any white feather campaign which depended in the past on the belief that men had to protect women as a class with their lives.

tritium

Permabear wrote: »

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Except of course that your only looking at war deaths on one side there, the side with overwhelming military and technological superiority. While we're unlikely to see another Somme, war, especially when weapons capability is constantly enhanced, is explicitly about maximising the casualties on the other side. There is no such thing as safe war.

Permabear

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orubiru

Permabear wrote: »

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That's also my point!

Ronald Wilson Reagan

Equality seem to be taking precedence over common sense, as Spock said "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

silverharp

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I assume you are not suggesting that there is a connection between inequality that men face in the west and inequality that women face in the third world? surely the 2 are completely different conversations?

Permabear

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silverharp

Permabear wrote: »

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fair enough but it is so obvious it's not of much relevance. On an Irish forum any conversation is going to be in terms of what is happening specifically here or generally in the West which is where any new ideas and trends are going to come from. if you want to see where family law for example might be like in 10 or 20 years , take a look at countries like the US and Canada or the UK. everyone can then discuss and see do "we" like where its going.
I have kids growing up but as I see it my son faces more societal risks , while individually it could be some positives and some negatives. who wouldn't want to be in a college with a 3:1 ratio of women to men?

, it will be the women stressing out that they cant find a "good man"

thattequilagirl

silverharp wrote: »

fair enough but it is so obvious it's not of much relevance. On an Irish forum any conversation is going to be in terms of what is happening specifically here or generally in the West which is where any new ideas and trends are going to come from. if you want to see where family law for example might be like in 10 or 20 years , take a look at countries like the US and Canada or the UK. everyone can then discuss and see do "we" like where its going.
I have kids growing up but as I see it my son faces more societal risks , while individually it could be some positives and some negatives. who wouldn't want to be in a college with a 3:1 ratio of women to men? , it will be the women stressing out that they cant find a "good man"

What risks do you feel your son faces? How is ensuring women have equal rights contributing to those risks? Do you genuinely feel your son would have been better off and given more advantages had he been born a girl? If so, why?

One eyed Jack

silverharp wrote: »

fair enough but it is so obvious it's not of much relevance. On an Irish forum any conversation is going to be in terms of what is happening specifically here or generally in the West which is where any new ideas and trends are going to come from. if you want to see where family law for example might be like in 10 or 20 years , take a look at countries like the US and Canada or the UK. everyone can then discuss and see do "we" like where its going.
I have kids growing up but as I see it my son faces more societal risks , while individually it could be some positives and some negatives. who wouldn't want to be in a college with a 3:1 ratio of women to men? , it will be the women stressing out that they cant find a "good man"

Ahh come on

That's literally the problem - people will point to whatever society suits their argument, completely ignoring social context, and when they can't point to another country, they'll point to another time in history, making it literally impossible to limit the scope of the discussion to Irish society in the present.

One eyed Jack

thattequilagirl wrote: »

What risks do you feel your son faces? How is ensuring women have equal rights contributing to those risks? Do you genuinely feel your son would have been better off and given more advantages had he been born a girl? If so, why?

Kudos for the most unique use of the "reverse the genders" argument I've ever seen

Seriously though, I know you asked silverharp, but I wouldn't be worried at all for my son's future (that's even if he decides to stay in Ireland), but I'd also be saying the same thing if I had a daughter tbh.

Foxtrol

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don’t understand this ‘out’ that just because a law or action was brought in by a man then it doesn’t count as damaging to men. This is especially true in the past, where many laws that damaged most men didn’t touch the class of men that made the laws. A big issue is that many of these archaic laws were never fixed due to lack of political pressure to change and desire to avoid the optics of a potential outrage storm from feminists if a change was attempted that appeared to weaken the position of a woman.

It’s interesting how quick feminists are to distance themselves from the actions of Thatcher as being those being a woman in power, comments like ‘but, but… she was acting like a man’.

And women haven't also put their bodies and lives on the line? In the 1700s, a woman had about a 1.5 percent chance of dying every time she had a baby.

What are the testicular cancer rates for women?? :rolleyes:

Bringing in natural health issues, especially in an area where there has been clearly a huge focus on improving outcomes for, is possibly the stupidest thing I’ve read in this thread. It’s quite the achievement so congrats!

Gerard3003

I wouldn't go as far as to say that equality has swung and lost balance. There is one worrying trend however, in the states they have been plans to introduce a training for teachers to NOT have sex with their students. This follows on from a slew of female teachers sleeping with their students. Now last time I checked , this was pedophilia and I would have to bring up the question, if it were male teachers doing this would it be as little as a slap on the wrist and an education?

dav3

When the gender pay gap sits at 14% and we live in a country where women are still not allowed full control over their own bodies, we still have some way to go.

Quazzie

dav3 wrote: »

When the gender pay gap sits at 14% and we live in a country where women are still not allowed full control over their own bodies, we still have some way to go.

How have women not got full control over their own bodies?

steddyeddy

I agree abortion should be legal here. Without a doubt.

Wibbs

dav3 wrote: »

When the gender pay gap sits at 14%

Ahh this old saw. You do know it's just a little inaccurate don't you? Not surprising you may not as it's regurgitated everywhere in the media and elsewhere as a fact, but let;s look a little more closely shall we?

Let's go to a source one would assume is pro feminism? Here's the National Women's council of Ireland's report about said pay gap. The usual stats are trotted out, however if we look more deeply...

The latest figures from the EU Commission show that the Gender Pay Gap in Ireland is 13.9% - in other words women in Ireland are paid almost 14% less than men. The Gender Pay Gap exists even though women do better at school and university than men.
In the Irish context, what is perhaps most disturbing is the high cost of motherhood. Figures from the OECD show that in Ireland the Gender Pay Gap for women with no children is -17% but this increases significantly to 14% for women with at least one child – a jump of 31 percentage points. The gender pay gap exists across the sectors.
For the bottom 10% of earners, the Gender Pay Gap in Ireland is 4% but this rises to 24.6% for the top 10% of income earners, suggesting the continued presence of a glass ceiling and indirect discrimination.

Emphasis mine.

Women with no kids get paid nearly 20% more than equivalent men. Funny how they don't directly mention that, and specifically hide it as a minus. No, not bullshít at all. I wonder why? Makes sense too. More women than men graduate second and third level and that gap is increasing. More women than men have third level education and that generally means more pay.

Of course the addition of children complicates things. Women who chose to have a child earlier in adulthood are more likely to forgo third level so job opportunities are going to be less. They're still seen and act as the primary carers so time constraints will impact a career at any stage, but especially at the start of a career. However a woman taking time away from a career will find it significantly easier to renter the workplace. Sure she will take a drop compared to if she'd never left, but have a man take off work to become a househusband and child rearer and see how easily he can get a job afterwards.

What I would like to see are the stats for say 30 to 35 year old women without children compared to men of of the same age range. I'll bet the farm the so called "paygap" and "glass ceiling" doesn't exist and indeed it seems in many cases goes the other way.

As for the "paygap" at the top? Similar things going on. More women are going to dial back when they start a family, many in my experience all too willingly, so that will impact their final earning potential. Secondly men, or more men than women are risk takers, rasher and adrenaline junkies(scientifically provable) and that mindset is more likely to be entrepreneurial, more likely to start their own business, or drive harder within a career for longer. They're also more likely to be obsessive and singular(some have even suggested that the Autistic spectrum is the male brain in extremis). A better stat to look at would be to compare like with like, IE compare men entrepreneurs with women entrepreneurs. Again I'll bet the farm their earnings are about equal.

So pay gap you say? I hear no calls for equal pay for 30 year old men who are likely to be paid less, nor do I hear calls to address the widening educational gap along gender lines in favour of women. Indeed we do still have some way to go.

silverharp

thattequilagirl wrote: »

What risks do you feel your son faces?

legally, family and divorce law mainly , if he was ever to get married in the future. Its biased in favour of women financially, custody etc, so given the law in places like the UK or the US he would need to be absolutely confident or that I'd stand behind his choice to not bother getting married and having kids if he judged the whole institution to be too risky.
In the workplace it seems like its more likely that a man will be the victim of hiring and promotion quotas especially in certain sectors where there are less women than men even if there are perfectly reasonable explanations for those differences.
one could bring in justice and sentencing but Ill assume that wont be a problem he faces :pac:

thattequilagirl wrote: »

How is ensuring women have equal rights contributing to those risks?

none if they are equal rights, I would like society to be absolutely blind to whether they are dealing with a man or a woman. neither sex should have any legal privilege and any benefits accrued should be earned not given by reason of what genitalia is between ones legs.
One problem I see is focusing on equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity within the group one might be talking about.

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Do you genuinely feel your son would have been better off and given more advantages had he been born a girl? If so, why?

In my case no because we have the resources to raise him and he has the ability to be at least in the "top 10%" . statistically working class males are the worst performing group today so based on any statistical measure its probably one demographic you don't want to be, anything else is better.

silverharp

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ahh come on

That's literally the problem - people will point to whatever society suits their argument, completely ignoring social context, and when they can't point to another country, they'll point to another time in history, making it literally impossible to limit the scope of the discussion to Irish society in the present.

the OP header is referencing feminism in western culture. When men are being arrested or fined on trains for manspreading in Saudi, let me know

dav3

Wibbs wrote: »

Ahh this old saw.

Yes, this old saw, again.

I was referencing the EU commission report. All the figures and facts are laid out here.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/document/index_en.htm#h2-7

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/gender-pay-gap/index_en.htm

Women have as good or better qualifications than men, but often their skills are not valued the same as men's and their career progression is slower. This results in an average gender pay gap of 16 % in the EU.

Family responsibilities are not equally shared. As a result, women have more frequent career breaks and often do not go back to a full time job. As a result, women earn on average 16 % less per hour than men; and even 31% less per year, given the higher proportion of female part-timers.

The combined effect of lower hourly wages for women with women working fewer hours than men over their lifetime, results in lower pensions. This leads to more women than men experiencing poverty in old age.

Wibbs wrote: »

Women with no kids get paid nearly 20% more than equivalent men.

There you have it ladies. Wibbs has worked it out. Keep your legs closed if you know what's good for you.

As for the other question I was asked above. I find it preposterous that in this day and age as a man, I could be given a vote to dictate on what a woman should do with her own body.

I am now off out on this sunny day to enjoy a glass or two of whatever I can get my hands on. You can PM if you really need to carry it on further.

DeVore

silverharp wrote: »

the OP header is referencing feminism in western culture. When men are being arrested or fined on trains for manspreading in Saudi, let me know

Then western women should also be told to "call you" when they are treated as badly as women of colour in Middle East, cos we are dealing with rights on a "most serious first" priority basis?

Billy86

dav3 wrote: »

When the gender pay gap sits at 14% and we live in a country where women are still not allowed full control over their own bodies, we still have some way to go.

Actually, a very good point was brought up to me when I mentioned that a few months back in a different thread. In Ireland, the wage gap for under 30s without children is actually apparently not 14%, but around 17%.

And that's women earning on average 17% more.

EDIT: I think it was Wibbs who brought it to my attention, having scrolled up a few posts.

thattequilagirl

Billy86 wrote: »

Actually, a very good point was brought up to me when I mentioned that a few months back in a different thread. In Ireland, the wage gap for under 30s without children is actually apparently not 14%, but around 17%.

And that's women earning on average 17% more.

EDIT: I think it was Wibbs who brought it to my attention, having scrolled up a few posts.

If you have to remain childless and defy time by remaining under 30, this doesn't really make a difference...

Billy86

dav3 wrote: »

There you have it ladies. Wibbs has worked it out. Keep your legs closed if you know what's good for you.

I don't think that is what he was getting at, to be honest. I think an easy remedy for this (to some extent anyway) would be to get rid of maternity leave in favour of 'parental leave'. If two 27 year olds have a kid while she earns €35,000 and he earns €22,500 it makes more sense for the father to spend more time off work than the mother (or for them to split it), but right now that isn't really an option so the mother has to stall her career that was progressing much faster than the fathers, even if she is extremely career-focused with specific goals and a plan, while he is just 'in a job'.

Billy86

thattequilagirl wrote: »

If you have to remain childless and defy time by remaining under 30, this doesn't really make a difference...

See my post above this one - it's not the children that are the 'problem' in my opinion, it's the division of time given to each parent to raise them and the view society places on the mother as the 'natural care giver' (also playing a huge role in custody cases), which ultimately can be detrimental to both men and women.

As for under 30, that is because I have simply not seen any data for other age ranges. If someone has the data to show what the pay gap for 30-39 year olds and so on looks like for those without children, I would be very interested. And indeed, the older you go odds are it would go stronger in favour of men and workplace inequality in favour of males is something that used to be far more prevalent than it is today.

silverharp

DeVore wrote: »

Then western women should also be told to "call you" when they are treated as badly as women of colour in Middle East, cos we are dealing with rights on a "most serious first" priority basis?

I dont understand? I live in a western culture so I am interested in how rights are distributed in cultures similar to where I live. I am also interested in how rights are distributed in cultures that are behind western culture because its better for everyone if they catch up. they are parallel conversations.
In terms of this conversation though I want men's issues to be looked in parallel to women's issues. not completely sidelined until some magical nirvana is reached in the future. There isnt a need for Feminism in the west, it should be called Egalitarianism , that way men and women could change things together.

tritium

dav3 wrote: »

Yes, this old saw, again.

I was referencing the EU commission report. All the figures and facts are laid out here.

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/document/index_en.htm#h2-7

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/gender-pay-gap/index_en.htm

There you have it ladies. Wibbs has worked it out. Keep your legs closed if you know what's good for you.
.

Yeah, all of us blokes are thrilled that benefitting from this one comes at the cost of having less time with our children then the mothers do....

Fortunately the state considers fathers disposable fashion accessories largely so we really don't get a say in it. Paternity leave? No thanks, equal right to a relationship with your child? No thanks, just suck it up sonny and earn the money

Funny how many folks leave that bit out of any discussion about wage gaps