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Will you wear an Easter Lily?

[Deleted User]

It's that time of the year again. Easter Week and the 100 year anniversary of the 1916 Rising is forthcoming, will you be wearing an Easter Lily to honour the men who fought and died for the Irish Republic? If so/not then why/why not?

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gormdubhgorm

Nothing to with the politics of it. But it always struck me as a silly symbol?
Lilly-livered= coward
Lilly white = innocent

Plus I am allergic to pollen.
So I won't be wearing one.
St Patrick's Day always feels the day to be Irish.

We do not have an "Independence Day" as such so no I will not wear the Lilly, as the Shamrock suffices on March 17th.

There has been no official time when Irish Independence started was it when PH Pearse read out the proclamation? Was it back in the days of fellas waving pikes around in the 18th century? Was it at the first Dail was declared in 1919? Was it after Soloheadbeg 1919? Was it when the Republic of Ireland Act was enacted in 1948?
Can Ireland still view itself as a Republic with just 26 counties?

I think I will stick to celebrating that Welsh Paddy it seems far less complicated!

davycc

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sean Russell was a citizen of a neutral state who collaborated with axis powers during WWII.

How anyone could defend the maintenance of his grave through the Easter lily fund is beyond me

he was a citizen of a neutral state not involved in the war so he could not technically be a collaborator as much as you wish he was with you twisted hatred off all things irish

if he were a british citizen you could rightly call him a collaborator , that is a significant difference .
. id have no problem personally with funds being used for the upkeep of his grave/monument .. he is just as much as a hero as Connolly and Pearse a few short years earlier, with their ''gallant allies in europe''

davycc

chair28 wrote: »

Why do so many Irish hate being Irish?
Irish people are nearly ashamed of the past.
They think its nearly cool to be anti irish for some reason... kinda weird

i hear you , after hours and the politics cafe are infested with trolls too

chair28

davycc wrote: »

i hear you , after hours and the politics cafe are infested with trolls too

The thing is, young people who are easily influenced read that trolling and then think like that also

Ice Maiden

chair28 wrote: »

They think its nearly cool to be anti irish for some reason

Yup. Enlightened or something.

Madd Finn

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A collaborator is someone who works for an enemy and usually an enemy who occupies his own country. Sean Russell was not French or Polish. Ireland was not occupied by the Germans. Ireland was not at war with Germany. The term collaborator is wrong.

Is that clear enough for you?

Oh FFS. Time for some semantics 101

Collaborate comes from the latin Laborare meaning to work. When combined with the prefix co-, the word actually means to "work together." Russell worked with the Nazis. He was a collaborator with them.

Now it is true that the word has become infused with traitorous nuances since WWII and the divided loyalties occurring in occupied countries but in reality there is very little difference between "co-operation" and "collaboration". They are essentially synonyms.

There is nothing in the word collaboration which means that its use is limited to Polish people or occupied territories. If there is a nuance, it is to suggest that the person you are "working with" is extremely unsavoury.

So with that inferred meaning, it is perfectly correct to say that Russell was a Nazi collaborator.

As they were to him

Junkyard Tom wrote:

You don't understand what a 'straw man' is.

Yes I do. It is somebody who has to make up easy arguments to counter his own because he is utterly unable to counter the real arguments his genuine opponents put forward.

A fine example of which is Fuaranach's claim that I "consistently overlook the thousands of British people who collaborated with the Nazis, but there's that "the nice British Empire fought WW II to free the Jews" understanding of history again."

I did not say and have never thought any such thing.

Junkyard Tom

Madd Finn wrote: »

Now it is true that the word has become infused with traitorous nuances since WWII and the divided loyalties occurring in occupied countries

Precisely, the connotation imbues the word with meaning. The Vichy French were collaborators. Sean Russell was not a collaborateur.

Yes I do. It is somebody who has to make up easy arguments to counter his own because he is utterly unable to counter the real arguments his genuine opponents put forward.

You accused him of it but didn't quote and point out the straw man.

A fine example of which is Fuaranach's claim that I "consistently overlook the thousands of British people who collaborated with the Nazis, but there's that "the nice British Empire fought WW II to free the Jews" understanding of history again." I did not say and have never thought any such thing.

A link to the post would be the done thing. Perhaps he mistook you for someone else?

[Deleted User]

chair28 wrote: »

Why do so many Irish hate being Irish?
Irish people are nearly ashamed of the past.
They think its nearly cool to be anti irish for some reason... kinda weird

A lot of Irish people suffer from an inferiority complex, they emulate British culture to feel more sophisticated and higher class. I think it goes back a few generations, when Gaelic culture was viewed as only for the lower class and English was for those who wanted to be upwardly mobile.

Madd Finn

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You accused him of it but didn't quote and point out the straw man.

A link to the post would be the done thing. Perhaps he mistook you for someone else?

i really don't think he did. Have a look for yourself here.

recylingbin

I'm in the ra, the plo, the taliban, the people's front of Judea and the west Cornwall morris dancing society, so I probably will wear one.

Junkyard Tom

Madd Finn wrote: »

i really don't think he did. Have a look for yourself here.

But do you overlook the British collaboration with their avowed enemy Nazis in favour of singling out Sean Russell's 'collaboration'?

gormdubhgorm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

But do you overlook the British collaboration with their avowed enemy Nazis in favour of singling out Sean Russell's 'collaboration'?

Exactly antisemitism was all the rage back then before Hitler ruined it for the rest of them. Even King Edward VIII
http://www.timesofisrael.com/british-archives-hiding-royal-familys-rife-anti-semitism-in-1930s-says-historian/

Joe Kennedy in America
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/01/joe-kennedy-s-answer-to-the-jewish-question-ship-them-to-africa.html

Junkyard Tom

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Exactly antisemitism was all the rage back then before Hitler ruined it for the rest of them. Even King Edward VIII
http://www.timesofisrael.com/british-archives-hiding-royal-familys-rife-anti-semitism-in-1930s-says-historian/

Joe Kennedy in America
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/01/joe-kennedy-s-answer-to-the-jewish-question-ship-them-to-africa.html

Under the pseudo-scientific umbrella of Eugenics which was actually a respected social 'science' in the universities of 'civilised' countries.

KingBrian2

recylingbin wrote: »

I'm in the ra, the plo, the taliban, the people's front of Judea and the west Cornwall morris dancing society, so I probably will wear one.

Your social life must interesting being a member of all those organisations.:rolleyes:

esforum

I shant because like all things connected with 1916, the tricolour and what should be a meaning to be a proud Irishman, its been bastardized by a bunch of ****wits with about as much intelligence as a rock.

And no I am not ashamed of being Irish and wouldnt consider that to be something thats common, in my experience we have far too high an opinion of ourselves.

Clampdown

esforum wrote: »

I shant because like all things connected with 1916, the tricolour and what should be a meaning to be a proud Irishman, its been bastardized by a bunch of ****wits with about as much intelligence as a rock.

And no I am not ashamed of being Irish and wouldnt consider that to be something thats common, in my experience we have far too high an opinion of ourselves.

Well I'm going to go the other way. I'm going to go ahead and wear one of those wee pins because I want to commemorate the brave men and women of the 1916 rising. I don't care how others choose to interpret it.

If someone thinks that I'm wearing one to support the IRA then they can get lost. I'll decide what the thing on me means to me, not, as you said, the ***wits.

I mean if Christians can take the structure Jesus was supposedly murdered on and make it their symbol then you can turn whatever symbol you want into whatever you want. Because you could just as easily look at at the cross as a celebration of Christ's murder and interpret it as an Anti-Christ symbol.

But I also think you can have the utmost respect and reverance for those who gave their lives for Ireland without wearing anything, and you shouldn't feel pressure to wear anything you don't feel like.

Clampdown

Funnily enough if you look for the badges on ebay most of them are being shipped from the UK

esforum

Clampdown wrote: »

Well I'm going to go the other way. I'm going to go ahead and wear one of those wee pins because I want to commemorate the brave men and women of the 1916 rising. I don't care how others choose to interpret it.

If someone thinks that I'm wearing one to support the IRA then they can get lost. I'll decide what the thing on me means to me, not, as you said, the ***wits.

I mean if Christians can take the structure Jesus was supposedly murdered on and make it their symbol then you can turn whatever symbol you want into whatever you want. Because you could just as easily look at at the cross as a celebration of Christ's murder and interpret it as an Anti-Christ symbol.

But I also think you can have the utmost respect and reverance for those who gave their lives for Ireland without wearing anything, and you shouldn't feel pressure to wear anything you don't feel like.

fair enough, funny how those that thanked your post are the ones defenign the Provos though

magma69

I'm grand anyway. If people want to wear it, power to them.

Madd Finn

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

But do you overlook the British collaboration with their avowed enemy Nazis in favour of singling out Sean Russell's 'collaboration'?

I'm not going to second guess what you mean by that. Care to give me some specifics?

Mesrine65

FFS...same shit, different year...

Will you/won't you wear an easter lily/poppy etc., etc...

IRA/terrorists/glorifying war & on & on :rolleyes:

The definition of insanity...doing the same thing over & over again & expecting different results.

galljga1

Clampdown wrote: »

Funnily enough if you look for the badges on ebay most of them are being shipped from the UK

As a matter of interest, where are they sold (bricks and mortar) and where do the proceeds end up?

A Dub in Glasgo

galljga1 wrote: »

As a matter of interest, where are they sold (bricks and mortar) and where do the proceeds end up?

There is a place on Parnell Square where you can browse and buy them

galljga1

On http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com you can but Easter lilies along with IRA t-shirts and key rings and also a nice framed picture of that child loving hero Joe Cahill.

Nodin

esforum wrote: »

I shant because like all things connected with 1916, the tricolour and what should be a meaning to be a proud Irishman, its been bastardized by a bunch of ****wits with about as much intelligence as a rock.
...............

Who would they be?

Fighting Irish

Just to piss people off who care about stupid ****

[Deleted User]

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sean Russell was a citizen of a neutral state who collaborated with axis powers during WWII.

Collaborator me h*le. He was in Germany for 3 months from May 1940. Dead by August of that year.

Heres whats on record about what he said about Germany:

"I am not a Nazi. I am not even Pro German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland. The British have been our Enemies for hundreds of years. They are the enemy of Germany today. If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence, I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings attached."

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/68249?print_page=true

andekwarhola

Nope.

It has come to have certain political connotations I'm not comfortable with.

No problem with others wearing it and nor would I draw immediate political conclusions about them for doing so.

esforum

Nodin wrote: »

Who would they be?

You know well who I mean, I mean the fat ie hard men in white shirts, black berets that march at certain funerals in recent history or if you want them named, RIRA, 32 county and the likes.

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/68249?print_page=true

Ya had me all the way until I saw where the info came from.

Iwasfrozen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Collaborator me h*le. He was in Germany for 3 months from May 1940. Dead by August of that year.

Heres whats on record about what he said about Germany:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/68249?print_page=true

He aided the Nazis, that makes him a Nazi collaborator.