Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

cul beag wrote: »

2 points scored? Ah come on now that has to be a joke! 3 months training to kick 2 points? That's inexcusable,sorry now but I'm not taking any rubbish reasons why this happened its a complete waste of time and money. We have secured 2 points in division 4 of the football league and we still persist with the charade aswell? What happened to Paddy Joe's think tank that was going to sort all the issues with football in Waterford?
I wonder how did Kilkenny get on in their Leinster u21 football championship game?!!!!!!!

Kilkenny didn't enter a team dis year

We should do a kilkenny on it and play in the overseas football championships. Hurling is number 1 in Waterford and it will always be that. There are football passionate people in Waterford but even if we became successful the won't pull the same support as the hurlers (remember the double header vs antrim in Walsh park last year most fans left after the hurling and only half stayed for the football). 2010 was a great year for football in Waterford as we came very close to playing in the Munster senior final (Limerick beat us late in the semi final).

deisedude wrote: »

I'd rather win playing ugly than lose playing free flowing hurling.

Waterford will not win an All Ireland using this horrible style.

blue note wrote: »

We're probably conceding the fewest goals too. If goals win matches and other teams can't score them against us, then we'll win the matches

We will see which one of us is correct in September.

Deise Vu wrote: »

Imagine having to tell a 'culbaire' that.

You won't win the matches that matter which are generally played on firmer ground. Wait and see. The system will get you through in the muck and slush of winter but will be exposed for what it is in the later stages of the championship. Waterford is fitter than most top teams at this stage of the year. Other teams will be on a par with Waterford later on in the year in terms of fitness and will also be fresher. Tipperary and Kilkenny are only now stepping up intensity of training.

Motivator

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

Waterford went conventional 15 on 15 for the last 10 minutes against Kilkenny in the all Ireland semi final last year. Austin Gleeson pushed up to the full forward like. To be fair I watched it back on tv and it was very difficult to see.

They didn't go 15 v 15 against Killenny at any stage. Patrick Curran was on the pitch 15 or 20 minutes & didn't touch the ball once, I don't even think he came within 10 yards of the ball at any stage, why? Because of the way Waterford were set up. Never once did they try & have a proper go at Kilkenny that day & Maurice' free that he tapped over when 6 points down with 10 mins to go proves that.

PTH2009 wrote: »

Kilkenny didn't enter a team dis year

We should do a kilkenny on it and play in the overseas football championships. Hurling is number 1 in Waterford and it will always be that. There are football passionate people in Waterford but even if we became successful the won't pull the same support as the hurlers (remember the double header vs antrim in Walsh park last year most fans left after the hurling and only half stayed for the football). 2010 was a great year for football in Waterford as we came very close to playing in the Munster senior final (Limerick beat us late in the semi final).

Are stradbally still opting out of the senior panel??

Waterford were somewhat unlucky in some of the div 4 matches to only lose by a pint
Following the logic of some here waterford wouldn't have entered underage hurling teams for years either....I recall going to Walsh park to see a waterford minor team who there was big hopes and I think it was cork beat them by 20 odd points :-/

culbaire wrote: »

Waterford will not win an All Ireland using this horrible style.

The only team in the last few years who've played the way you wish to play are tipp....and they've struggled to even win munsters

Why play this great to look at free flowing hurling (which everyone loves to see including me)...and be gallent losers year in year out and kk going up to pick up the all Ireland??

Waterford are no longer viewed the soft touch even againest tipp in thurles where once they'd have tried tackle pick up runners when they running through last day they pure fouled the man with the ball and gave away the point.....

Highly cynical like....but being nice/soft touch won't win you anything....if they can't win individual rucks and dirty ball they'll win nothing??

tomwaterford wrote: »

The only team in the last few years who've played the way you wish to play are tipp....and they've struggled to even win munsters

Why play this great to look at free flowing hurling (which everyone loves to see including me)...and be gallent losers year in year out and kk going up to pick up the all Ireland??

Waterford are no longer viewed the soft touch even againest tipp in thurles where once they'd have tried tackle pick up runners when they running through last day they pure fouled the man with the ball and gave away the point.....

Highly cynical like....but being nice/soft touch won't win you anything....if they can't win individual rucks and dirty ball they'll win nothing??

We will see who is right next September. You seem to have forgotten that Waterford playing free flowing hurling under Justin McCarthy won three Munster Senior Hurling Championships in 2002, 2004 and 2007. They also won the National Hurling League title in 2007

culbaire wrote: »

We will see who is right next September. You seem to have forgotten that Waterford playing free flowing hurling under Justin McCarthy won three Munster Senior Hurling Championships in 2002, 2004 and 2007. They also won the National Hurling League title in 2007

How could I forget I was at them

I was also there when Henry shefflin walked in the sideline to score a goal and no one would tackle him in 04

If ever that team was going to win an all Ireland it was in 07....but Limerick plundered them for was it 5 goals....a point down going into injury time....hit the crossbar and lim come up the field to h
get the goal

A lifetime of seeing waterford as gallent losers playing super hurling and no all Ireland's to show for it

If no one ever tried anything new we'd still be sitting in caves scratching stones off the walls...

lambast waterford for slowness to make changes/tactically slow (someone longed for a return to Justin McCarthy ffs)...but to want to go say that something which hasn't worked time and again will mystically work now???

As it stands if waterford have won as many national titles this way as they have under McCarthy....though tbh I taught that league final was the pinnacle of this "system" as it was slightly built around Mahoney as a Henry shefflin type playmaker....so I don't feel it should be dismissed until we get to see a championship match with Mahoney at full tilt.

JesusRef

We could be the last 56 years saying let's see who is right come next September, god love us if we have to wait for a All Ireland win to prove anything.

Just because you don't win the All Ireland doesn't mean you did everything wrong

I was the biggest nay sayer when Derek took over with this approach - but he has made us competitive again, he has earned enough credit in the bank to try something different

mountgomery burns

culbaire wrote: »

You won't win the matches that matter which are generally played on firmer ground. Wait and see. The system will get you through in the muck and slush of winter but will be exposed for what it is in the later stages of the championship. Waterford is fitter than most top teams at this stage of the year. Other teams will be on a par with Waterford later on in the year in terms of fitness and will also be fresher. Tipperary and Kilkenny are only now stepping up intensity of training.

Why would it suit better on winter ground?

If you have one or two forwards up top against 6 backs, on slow ground, I woud actually be expecting it to be even harder to score. Especially in a system built on short passing and support, which is much slicker and easier when conditions are fine?

I don't buy into this at all. I also heard Tipp were 'flying' there after the Dublin game, full blooded 15 v 15 games. Lot of nonsense spouted when people make claims just to backup their agenda.

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Why would it suit better on winter ground?

If you have one or two forwards up top against 6 backs, on slow ground, I woud actually be expecting it to be even harder to score. Especially in a system built on short passing and support, which is much slicker and easier when conditions are fine?

I don't buy into this at all. I also heard Tipp were 'flying' there after the Dublin game, full blooded 15 v 15 games. Lot of nonsense spouted when people make claims just to backup their agenda.

That's your problem if you don't buy into it. There is no nonsense being spouted. In the summer months other counties will be at the same fitness levels as Waterford and will dismantle this famous system. Kilkenny only started training around the middle of February. Tipperary did much less training than Waterford over the winter period. Just the plain unvarnished truth whether you like it or not. No nonsense there. The amount of training done by Waterford over the winter months, was huge.

The famous system was to be modified this year. Instead we find the same old bastardised hurling being played. Did you hear Christy Heffernans take on it? I suppose he knows nothing either! Let's be blunt: Waterford will never win an All Ireland using this system. That is the opinion of several outstanding hurlers ands ex hurlers from outside of the county. A lot of Waterford supporters are sick of it. They can see the stifling effect of it.

Justin McCarthy was rubbished on this thread. He won three Munster titles and a National League title with Waterford. Lets see if the famous system delivers more than that.

JesusRef wrote: »

We could be the last 56 years saying let's see who is right come next September, god love us if we have to wait for a All Ireland win to prove anything.

Just because you don't win the All Ireland doesn't mean you did everything wrong

I was the biggest nay sayer when Derek took over with this approach - but he has made us competitive again, he has earned enough credit in the bank to try something different

Ah yes the defeatist attitude. Sure if that is the attitude why waste money fielding a team? There are enough talented players available to win an All Ireland. Now get on and win it. Stop making excuses for failure.

culbaire wrote: »

Ah yes the defeatist attitude. Sure if that is the attitude why waste money fielding a team? There are enough talented players available to win an All Ireland. Now get on and win it. Stop making excuses for failure.

You appear to have your excuse for this year sorted out though??

What was the excuse for not winning it under Justin

robopaddy2

There wasn't much about this before we lost to Dublin last week. One defeat and the whole thing has crumbled again apparently. Ive even read someone refer to the fact that we only scored 14 points vs KK!! (we won the game ffs). I agree if this year peters pout like last year when we fall short at the same stage while persisting with a system that frustrates everyone, it will be seen as a failure, and it will be time for answers.
But last year was a successful one and for that reason McGrath has earned the right keep the project moving for this year. Given there were a lot of young lads last year in their first proper full season and a few more breaking through this year you've got to give consideration that young players will improve. Some people are demanding an all Ireland immediately. We of all people should know that reaching an All Ireland semi does not mean you are necessarily close to winning an All Ireland

TheScoringGoal

Motivator wrote: »

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

Waterford went conventional 15 on 15 for the last 10 minutes against Kilkenny in the all Ireland semi final last year. Austin Gleeson pushed up to the full forward like. To be fair I watched it back on tv and it was very difficult to see.

They didn't go 15 v 15 against Killenny at any stage. Patrick Curran was on the pitch 15 or 20 minutes & didn't touch the ball once, I don't even think he came within 10 yards of the ball at any stage, why? Because of the way Waterford were set up. Never once did they try & have a proper go at Kilkenny that day & Maurice' free that he tapped over when 6 points down with 10 mins to go proves that.

They did go 15 on 15 when the pushed Gleeson up. The cameras and commentators never picked it up.

Your point regarding Curran not touching the ball may be true. I think he got his hurley to one in the air but he didn't gain possession afterwards.

Signed up for club deise (50 Euro one) but have not got an email asking for my phone number and all that. Anyone have a membership ??

On the league front here are the possibilities
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=252237

Are opponents in the qf will be either wexford, offaly or the loser of Clare vs Limerick

mountgomery burns

culbaire wrote: »

That's your problem if you don't buy into it. There is no nonsense being spouted. In the summer months other counties will be at the same fitness levels as Waterford and will dismantle this famous system. Kilkenny only started training around the middle of February. Tipperary did much less training than Waterford over the winter period. Just the plain unvarnished truth whether you like it or not. No nonsense there. The amount of training done by Waterford over the winter months, was huge.

The famous system was to be modified this year. Instead we find the same old bastardised hurling being played. Did you hear Christy Heffernans take on it? I suppose he knows nothing either! Let's be blunt: Waterford will never win an All Ireland using this system. That is the opinion of several outstanding hurlers ands ex hurlers from outside of the county. A lot of Waterford supporters are sick of it. They can see the stifling effect of it.

Justin McCarthy was rubbished on this thread. He won three Munster titles and a National League title with Waterford. Lets see if the famous system delivers more than that.

Justin will never be rubbished be my anyway so no idea why you're bringing that up.

They're training hard in the winter because they know they have ground to make up in the physical stakes v Kilkenny. Would you rather they just sat on their arses and waited until February to train themselves?

You didn't explain why The style of hurling is suited to winter ground. Iwas quite clear why I think people are misguided in thinking it does suit winter hurling.

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Justin will never be rubbished be my anyway so no idea why you're bringing that up.

They're training hard in the winter because they know they have ground to make up in the physical stakes v Kilkenny. Would you rather they just sat on their arses and waited until February to train themselves?

You didn't explain why The style of hurling is suited to winter ground. Iwas quite clear why I think people are misguided in thinking it does suit winter hurling.

The style of hurling played by Waterford is slow and sluggish. Ideal for heavy winter grounds when playing against less physically fit teams. Its shortcomings become obvious on dry summer grounds when opponents are as physically fit and play more direct hurling. It is a nonsense to play just one man in the full forward line. Christy Heffernan is of the same opinion as are several other intercountry players.

mickmackmcgoo

Lots of changes for Sunday . Good to see the squad players get a run. Didn't think they would get a go but good to see it

mickmackmcgoo

Ian O'Regan (Mount Sion)

2. Conor Gleeson (Fourmilewater)

3. Shane McNulty (De La Salle)

4. Shane Roche (Shamrocks)

5. Austin Gleeson (Mount Sion)

6. Tadhg de Burca (Clashmore / Kinsalebeg)

7. Gavin O'Brien (Roanmore)

8. Shane O'Sullivan (Ballygunner)

21. Maurice Shanahan (Lismore)

10. Kevin Moran (De La Salle)

11. Tom Devine (Modeligo)

12. Brian O'Halloran (Clashmore / Kinsalebeg)

13. Colm Roche (Shamrocks)

14. Tommy Ryan (Tallow)

15. Shane bennet

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Ian O'Regan (Mount Sion)

2. Conor Gleeson (Fourmilewater)

3. Shane McNulty (De La Salle)

4. Shane Roche (Shamrocks)

5. Austin Gleeson (Mount Sion)

6. Tadhg de Burca (Clashmore / Kinsalebeg)

7. Gavin O'Brien (Roanmore)

8. Shane O'Sullivan (Ballygunner)

21. Maurice Shanahan (Lismore)

10. Kevin Moran (De La Salle)

11. Tom Devine (Modeligo)

12. Brian O'Halloran (Clashmore / Kinsalebeg)

13. Colm Roche (Shamrocks)

14. Tommy Ryan (Tallow)

15. Shane bennet

Should of played that team vs Dublin and not in such an important game like Sunday's(lose and its a very tough quarter final against either Clare or Limerick). Unless staying up was the main objective not retaining the league. Good to see sum of the lads get a run out

Dick phelan

I'm happy with that, gives a lot of lads a chance to put their hand up for future starts, end of the day it's not a must win, we still have enough quality in the team to do well imo although it will be interesting to see how well the defense does, virtually brand new backs except TDB and Aussie. Looking forward to the game Sunday hopefully a few lads go out and prove themselves giving McGrath an even bigger headache of who to pick next time around.

conditioned games

We won't win with that team but at least other players are getting looked at. Ideally last week was the time to play this team. A loss or 2 now is not a big deal, they have shown enough what they are capable of. Just hope they play at least 2 upfront and not piss off the paying supporters again.

The blue blaa

Is there no other goalkeeper then O'Regan around?

Giveitfong

Every team is liable to have an off day, and especially if it was the case that they did a lot of heavy training the previous week, Waterford’s flat performance last Sunday is understandable. They are undoubtedly a very talented group of players and Derek McGrath deserves a lot of credit in terms of developing team spirit and work ethic. At the same time, when the team is getting results there may be a tendency to overlook certain weaknesses which can become magnified when the team plays poorly.

It has been said that Dublin beat Waterford at their own game last Sunday, but there was a lot more to it than that. While Dublin also have a good fitness level and a high work rate, their game plan is much more sophisticated than Waterford’s. This is a new game plan which we first saw in their win over Galway and which they repeated against Cork and Waterford.

The game plan which Waterford introduced last year was primarily designed to prevent the team shipping big scores and to that extent has worked very well (although the quality of our defenders was also a big factor here). However, Waterford had no coherent attacking strategy and relied heavily on hitting rather aimless long balls to a non-existent full forward line. The inadequacies of this game plan became increasingly obvious as the year progressed.

I had hoped to see some progress this year in terms of attacking strategy, but there has been little sign of this. Against Tipperary, Waterford hit elevent long balls into the Tipperary goal area and won just one of them. It was the same last Sunday with ball after ball being hit into our lone full forward, Tom Devine, who was always marked by two, and sometimes by three, defenders. Such balls are very easy to defend, and I don’t recall Devine winning one of them. I felt sorry for him when he was substituted in the second half, as he was given an impossible task. Einstein is supposed to have said that it is insane to keep doing the same thing over and over again, always getting the same result, but hoping for a different result. You don’t have to be a genius to figure that one out.

The Dublin game plan is based first of all on the fact that no team nowadays plays with three full forwards, so there is always a free full back available to take a short puckout. Waterford’s one-main full forward line gave them two short puckout options. They then work the ball upfield patiently until they get someone in space able to either shoot for a point or hit a heads-up ball to the full forward line. A favourite ploy is for the midfielders to move to the sidelines, bringing their markers with him, with their No. 11 Niall McMorrow moving into the space created to take a stick pass out of defence. He then either plays the ball forward himself or lays it off to hard-running support players. One assumes that Derek McGrath did not study this game plan as no one was earmarked to cover McMorrow.

Dublin always play two pacy full forwards, who always move to the corners in anticipation of incoming balls which are usually played in low to give them a good chance of winning them. In previous matches there were Eamon Dillon and Mark Schutte. With Schutte injured last week, Dotsy O’Callaghan filled in for him. Dillon got man of the match with four superb points. As Discostew has pointed out, by keeping the ball to the wings Dublin were also able to by-pass the Waterford sweeper and effectively take him out of the game. In their game against Cork, Dublin did not hit a single long ball into the Cork goal area, and I don’t remember them hitting much of this kind of ball last Sunday either.

Waterford’s long ball game, by contrast, gave Liam Rushe loads of handy possession which he usually laid off to support runners. If he hit a long ball there was always an intended target. Interviewed in the Irish Times during the week, the Dublin corner back Oisín Gough said: “We have a game plan, and it’s mainly about using the ball, trying not to hit aimless balls on the back foot, only to see them return. We try to work the ball around the park and keep possession.” This has been obvious in Dublin’s recent games, where players will play the ball backwards fifty yards rather than play a blind ball. Waterford are inclined to do this far too often in all their games. If they were playing an orthodox formation with players in predictable positions that might make some sense, but not with the way the Waterford team is set up at the moment.

Stephen Bennett and Patrick Curran are two of the best underage scoring forwards Waterford has produced in ages. When Bennett was in the team last year he was played outfield in a foraging role and now Curran is doing the same. That for me is another example of insanity. We simply are not making the best use of the very ample available resources.

The Waterford management’s non-policy as regards the use of substitutes, particularly when a game is going away from them, is impossible to fathom. This was obvious in the All-Ireland semi-final last year, and was apparent again last Sunday, when one substitution was made (after a long delay) for an injured player, and then two more were brought on in added time. With Waterford playing so poorly, what was to be lost from bringing on substitutes and giving them valuable game time? For example, Kevin Moran was completely out of sorts, and should have been replaced by Shane McNulty. If any of our regular defenders gets injured in the championship we will have to replace them with players with hardly any competitive experience.

Derek McGrath’s decisions to play all the substitutes in one go for tomorrow’s game against Galway makes as little sense as playing no substitutes at all. Fringe players should be tried out in twos and threes like Kilkenny do. This allows these players to get encouragement and protection from senior players all around them. Throwing them all in together to sink or swim is not fair, and highlights the lack of any coherent strategy for squad development.

Fireball07

PTH2009 wrote: »

Should of played that team vs Dublin and not in such an important game like Sunday's(lose and its a very tough quarter final against either Clare or Limerick). Unless staying up was the main objective not retaining the league. Good to see sum of the lads get a run out

Maybe Derek would like a perceived tougher quarter-final? I think Waterford at full-strength would have no problems taking care of either Clare or Limerick in their current states.

From an outsider looking-in, I think the job was done once ye got 3 wins. He probably should have experimented a bit more last week rather than throw out what is pretty much a complete 2nd-choice team. The Cody way of mixing 4 or 5 newer players with the big guns is probably the best way forward. But if that team can get a win, that's great news for the depth in Waterford. If they lose, and end up playing Clare/Limerick, what harm? You're better than any 1B team atm.

Dick phelan

The blue blaa wrote: »

Is there no other goalkeeper then O'Regan around?

Well Billy Nolan but he's only 17 but he's a fantastic talent.