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Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 3 Updated Mod Note Post 1

Hammer Archer

New thread continued from here.

Welcome to the Waterford GAA discussion thread.

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Dick phelan

Extremely poor today nothing went right, worryingly again problems in the forward line showed up, Devine was isolated inside up against 2 Dublin defenders almost all the time, defending great is fine but 14 points is a very poor return, Unlike previous games almost all the dirty ball was won by Dublin, in almost every ruck it was a Dub coming out with the ball, It was a really bad day at the office but worryingly it was the same problems as last year today, hopefully we can get the balance right between defense and committing to attack no opposition full back line will be worried if they see only 1 man inside.

Deise_2012

McGrath was very slow to make changes. I don't wanna be critical cause he's doing unbelievable stuff but why wait until the 68th minute to bring on Tommy Ryan and SOS

cul beag

Deise_2012 wrote: »

McGrath was very slow to make changes. I don't wanna be critical cause he's doing unbelievable stuff but why wait until the 68th minute to bring on Tommy Ryan and SOS

As I said we're limited on the bench when you see what we brought on. Ryan is a very good club hurler but this style of hurling is foreign to him and what Shane O Sullivan has to offer at this stage baffles me to say the least.

mickmackmcgoo

cul beag wrote:

As I said we're limited on the bench when you see what we brought on. Ryan is a very good club hurler but this style of hurling is foreign to him and what Shane O Sullivan has to offer at this stage baffles me to say the least.

It's difficult for the other subs like Roche Gleeson and McNulty etc not getting a look in the league and no chance of starting in the championship bar injuries

cul beag

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

It's difficult for the other subs like Roche Gleeson and McNulty etc not getting a look in the league and no chance of starting in the championship bar injuries

You have to wonder at what stage now do they see some action? Obviously we will be going for the win against Galway so does McGrath stick or twist? Going on previous selections he's not going to change too much so it's going to be a frustratingly long year for those fellas you have mentioned as they're likely only making up the numbers at training from here on in. Gleeson or Roche should surely be given game time? Sullivan is well past his sell by date and it stinks of the old boys club when you see him still being used.

mickmackmcgoo

cul beag wrote:

You have to wonder at what stage now do they see some action? Obviously we will be going for the win against Galway so does McGrath stick or twist? Going on previous selections he's not going to change too much so it's going to be a frustratingly long year for those fellas you have mentioned as they're likely only making up the numbers at training from here on in. Gleeson or Roche should surely be given game time? Sullivan is well past his sell by date and it stinks of the old boys club when you see him still being used.

Sullivan was never the same player after taking the year out , I guess his experience is wanted . Staying In 1A was always the aim. Is the league from now on gonna be as important to us as last year is the question . Do we solely focus on the clare game?

thesultan

Very poor to watch today. Periods of the game resorted to lamping balls in Devine. He inside with no one within forty yards of him and four defenders around him

PTH2009

Tables here- http://www.hoganstand.com/General/Tables/

we are third by points difference at the moment.

Waterford vs Galway- obv a win is crucial for both teams but very important for Galway as they are level with Tipp with 3 points each (tipp will be expected to beat cork in thurles) so galway will aim to put up a big score to raise there point difference vs tipps. We need to win/draw to avoid a Qf vs Limerick/Clare.

Todays defeat may be a blessing but derek and co are quite stubborn with there approaches/team selections/tactics etc so dont expect much change for the rest of the year.

cul beag

mickmackmcgoo wrote: »

Sullivan was never the same player after taking the year out , I guess his experience is wanted . Staying In 1A was always the aim. Is the league from now on gonna be as important to us as last year is the question . Do we solely focus on the clare game?

I would think he'll give the league a right good go again but you can be sure the Clare game is to the forefront of his thinking.

carter10

Another game with no goal scored. Thats 1 goal in the last 5 matches. 6 points down today and we're lumping high ball into one man surrounded by 3 or 4.
We are at nothing if we dont find a way to score goals but we persist with this ludicrous formation.
Dublin did today what Tipp did in the Munster final we reacted as we did in the munster final...we did nothing.
We were led to believe McGrath would "tweek" our approach, wont happen, we'll be watching Tom Devine or Maurice trying to win ball surrounded by a sea of opposition jerseys well into the summer and when inevitably when we are chasing a game in the dying minutes with our championship survival on the line....nothing will be changed.
We are so wedded to congesting space that when an opposition team open us up like Dublin did today we panic. This team no longer has the ability to play 15 on 15.

thesultan

Why not leave Curran and Bennett in the corners. Why aren't utilizing their talents better instead of being workhorses. The backs are fine defenders, they don't need three or four fellas covering them. Waste of time being a sub for Waterford. Crying out for changes and we get it with five minutes to go with the game gone. How can someone establish themselves in this time period?

mickmackmcgoo

The worrying part is that we weren't beaten for fitness and sharpness and it's not as if that's gonna improve lots by the summer . It's that we were completely out hurled today and neither the players or management had an answer to it .

PTH2009

Lose next weekend and that's when the worrying will start not only would we be after butchering our top place league position we will face a into a very hard qf vs either Clare or Limerick.

Play like we did today and galway will destroy us.

decies

Yeah I was shocked how poor we were today , even allowing how good Dublin played . It only took 5 mins to see something was serious wrong , second to most 50/50 balls , terrible bad shot selection . General lethargically flowing throughout the team , it looked like they were out late last night or something . Was waiting for Mcgath to go to plan B and shake it up ,but nothing materialised in the second half .Its a wake up call for the team , so now we are wondering where we actually stand performance wise going forward , Was it just a bad day at the office or did we over estimate this team ?Time will tell on that front .

HillFarmer

I'm not overly worried. I've a view that Mgrath wasn't overly worried about winning this game.
If he was he would have started Maurice.
Good to have a reality check and come in to the Munster game against Clare without being clear favourites.

I also believe physical training has gone up a notch since Tipp and could have had a bearing.

cul beag

HillFarmer wrote: »

I'm not overly worried. I've a view that Mgrath wasn't overly worried about winning this game.
If he was he would have started Maurice.
Good to have a reality check and come in to the Munster game against Clare without being clear favourites.

I also believe physical training has gone up a notch since Tipp and could have had a bearing.

Maurice was disciplined and wasn't going to start yesterday.

O Riain

cul beag wrote: »

Maurice was disciplined and wasn't going to start yesterday.

Dan said that they'd done some seriously heavy training during the week so could be a reason for the lethargy.

People here are unbelievable, they couldn't get over themselves after we beat Tipp and now they think the world is ending because we lost to Dublin. A Dublin team that is top of the group for a reason I might add! Yes we lost but we spent a hell of a lot of time unbeaten in the league and it had to happen sooner or later.

Yes goals are very important but let's put it this way, the team who has scored the most goals in this league is sitting at the bottom with zero points.

People are talking about changes and how McGrath needs to make changes, i do agree with this but we were 4 points down against tipp last week and we managed to come back and beat them. In the league I think it's important to be in these situations to get experience on how to come back but today it didn't work out.

Also from the sounds of it, we were going for goal alot in the second half but didn't work out, might also explain why devine was left on for so long. In saying that, if he was alone up there with two or three defenders then that was ridiculous and sounds like the same crap from 2 years ago.

We are garaunteed a quarter final and the Galway game will be a good test. People need to remember this was a defeat, in the league, in march, after we had been undefeated since last February. I'm sure the boys will stick the heads downs and learn from it so that the defeatists on here can hopefully relax a little bit!

KevIRL

The boards.ie Waterford boom/bust cycle.

gobo99

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carter10

KevIRL wrote: »

The boards.ie Waterford boom/bust cycle.

Whats this a Donald Trump rally? no dissenting voices allowed!! Just pointing our a number of issues that have been there but were highlighted yesterday. Lack of goals is an issue. Scoring only 14 points in 2 of our last 4 games is an issue and there are others.
Our system will win league games but not munster finals or an all ireland as we saw last year. That the approach this year is exactly the same is disappointing.

They may be doing heavy training, fair enough but yesterday was one of a very few opportunities to experiment and try something new so what did he do?
Went conventional for a few minutes at the start and the minute Dublin got going he went back to congesting space.
There did seem to be an effort to go for goal yesterday mainly through Shane Bennett but the amount of ground he was was expected to cover and the number of defenders he had to beat made the task highly improbable.
As an aside- fabulous bit of work by Bennett to catch and beat the ball off the Dublin players hurley with his hand in the first half.
At the end of the day id love to see Bennett and Curran, two players who can take on backs and score goals nearer goal if that's being negative or whatever then hands up I'm guilty.

Bonniedog

As outside observer, might I point out that in the last 5/6 years Dublin have been as (or not as depending on your perspective!) successful as Waterford:

One national league title and one provincial.

You'd think Waterford had been beaten by Carlow the way some are going on.

mountgomery burns

Bonniedog wrote: »

As outside observer, might I point out that in the last 5/6 years Dublin have been as (or not as depending on your perspective!) successful as Waterford:

One national league title and one provincial.

You'd think Waterford had been beaten by Carlow the way some are going on.

5 or 6 years is a very arbitrary number that just about encompasses Dublins league title. I'd agree there's a massive over reaction though.

Not quite sure how good Dublin are, but its league games are just that. Especially when you're after winning your first three.

cul beag

carter10 wrote: »

Whats this a Donald Trump rally? no dissenting voices allowed!! Just pointing our a number of issues that have been there but were highlighted yesterday. Lack of goals is an issue. Scoring only 14 points in 2 of our last 4 games is an issue and there are others.
Our system will win league games but not munster finals or an all ireland as we saw last year. That the approach this year is exactly the same is disappointing.

They may be doing heavy training, fair enough but yesterday was one of a very few opportunities to experiment and try something new so what did he do?
Went conventional for a few minutes at the start and the minute Dublin got going he went back to congesting space.
There did seem to be an effort to go for goal yesterday mainly through Shane Bennett but the amount of ground he was was expected to cover and the number of defenders he had to beat made the task highly improbable.
As an aside- fabulous bit of work by Bennett to catch and beat the ball off the Dublin players hurley with his hand in the first half.
At the end of the day id love to see Bennett and Curran, two players who can take on backs and score goals nearer goal if that's being negative or whatever then hands up I'm guilty.

Thou shall not come on here with constructive criticism,how dare you! You should know better than to offer an alternative opinion than to the pro McGrath propagandists! My god its like people think we are waiting in the long grass for the whole thing to collapse. We are all Waterford supporters,we all want to see us being successful but if we cannot offer an alternative opinion then we might aswell be in North Korea! When they are good we praise them and when they are poor then we are more than entitled to say that also.

Horseboxhead

just thought yesterday was a wasted oppertunity, to experiment more, and also if possible seeing as Derek had his mind made up about the Outcome he wanted, he could have let it be known, that Waterford were not going to turn up, due to "some very hard Running" done on the previous week in Training.
It Struck me Watching both the Game and sitting behind the Waterford Dug out, that there was only one of the Waterford Managemant team, clearly oblivious to the pre arranged "performence" as Dan was as vocal and animated as ever, Maybe no one told him either.
Anyway as to the performence, i thought corner backs did well, i thought the Barry coughlan was asked to sink or swim without the cover of a very structured sweeper system, and i know he shipped four points, but that was in a purple period before half time, when due to the ease the the dublin half back line, and centre back in particular could look up and survey his options, and some excellent running , touch and shooting of E dillon[Dublin full forward], that any full back would have been troubled, this for me was a massive sign Waterford were flat, as whilst i say waterford had no sweeper system, they actually had, but could not implement it due to everybody converging in the middle of the pitch , running around and achieveing very little, and a dublin Goalkeeper whose distribution was top class, and Liam rushes ability to find space and insted of firing it to the feet of his team mates actually passed it head or chest high at pace, ie properly if you really want to utilise space, and it resulted in Making B coughlan Look avarage enough, but when coughlan was shoulder to shoulder with the afforementioned he not only competed but won most duels after that, i am also wondering, why Barry is currently at this point in time, When getting to the pitch of the ball, throwing himself down and trying to scoop the ball into his chest on the way down, surly this just create's more work once ball is secured, and with the rule change in place, if he is seen to be killing the ball, as resulted once or twice, another ref would have blown, and he blew enough bless him, his interpretation of the advantage rule , left him open to some serious debate.
T de Burca in fairness played himself into the game looked rusty, but then again who wouldn't, but even considering his last year and i think de burca is a gem, i still prefer D fives at centre back, if only for his distribution quality that we've seen in the last 3 games, as you could play de burca, in any position, and he would excel, his distribution at times gets a bit erattic, D Fives plays with a maturity and a calmness , that inspires, but then again he is a little bit more mature , and not saying de burca will not be as good eventually, just as of now, i'd put fives there all day.
Kevin Moran was poor, he'll know that himself, his touch, his ball winning, his legs all well short of what he is capable of, he'll know this better than anyone, so no need to harp on, thaought Austin gleeson was clearly and visably tired , at least i hope so, as, and before his groupie brigade start bleating, he did not shake a leg , he hit two points, but did not make the hard yards, funny how the hyper training affected the younger members , whilst Brick and jake, i thought fought like dogs, funny that, maybe they decided excuses are just that , excuses.
J Barron was at odds in the first half, Second half improved a ton and won alot of ball, distribution was poor though, Colin Dunford, looked injured from about the 10th min on, and yet survived onto i think the 60th min,i thought, and he is having a very solid League campaign, he was not right from the off, and he also did his now once a game , running right through to the edge of the square and not finishing, he has to make one of these stick, as bar the Goal v Tipp in the league semi last year, i cant remember one of these even resulting even in a point, in fact usually they result in turnovers and sometimes, the balance is wrong as he is lying on the edge of the square with the ball being channeled downfield any scores being created, again he worked hard, got a point, but did not really affect the game, agin put it down to tiredness, Shane Bennett had too much to do everytime he had an oppertunity to get on the ball, and Dublin stopped him running Early and got bodies in around him, did not score , loved his flick with the hand to dispossess Gough before half time, but achieved little, Brick did what he does, some man, Dillon and he's much derided but is a leader in the brick mould, works hard, nice hurler, if he was a little nimbler he would be top class, he is not slow by any means just does not have that bust that top quality intercounty forwards have, i'd take what he gives though leaves it out there, got to respect that, and Patrick curran looked knackered, was letargic all day could not get away, pass by or run away from anyone, not his game, usually his hurling is enough, he is also not slow just his style, some hurler though , i actually think we might not see the best of him this year, but its a long time to championship, i am very excited about what i've seen from him to date, your never too sure what is the next step for a minor star is, but he is gold, he is going to be top scorer for waterford Hurling sides for along time, i would love to see him Close to goal though, as we have enough worker bees out around the middle already, Tom Devine was given some thankless role, but its the hand he was dealt, i don't think he is a ball winning full forward though, i think he is better out furthur winning ball and running with his power straight at goal, as we could see yesterday, when Dublin had worked out they could afford to have 3 around him at any time, one just leaned in as he left the ground, and at least two swept, i think he was unfortunate ball going in to was ****e, it was either too high and slightly away from him, so he could not set himself, or it was too much in front of him, or forced in , in front of him,on a very unforgiving surface, but i think that even if the ball was better then he still would have struggled, piss poor game, heads up would be appreciated next time, but still not overly disappointed, how could we be, got bet , Dublin were quite good, this time of year suits them, and if our distribution and shot selection /Passing was better than we still could have won whilst being Knakered.
I had two Major problems with yeaterday though and both of them are roughly the same, we could have seen some more new faces, i would like to have seen, maybe Roche from the shamrocks, Maybe give Conor Gleeson a run, or someone else , What must shane McNulty do to get a run?, and also if your system is not working and the game is over, why not allow the players the freedom of maybe making a few changes even in their Positioning which would maybe make us more threatening in front of goal, just small things, but might make a diffference long term, again, not too despondent but would like to have come away from yesterdays game with having seen something other than what we already know.
Plus was anyone else signed into handing over €20 euro for Club deise , before they got their bearings, jesus all they were missing were masks and a gun, no problem supporting it, but relax its not a competition, or maybe it was.......

bullpost

Objectively we overachieved last year. Still a very young team. If we'd gone into this campaign with lots of experimenting I think there's a chance that the advances made last year might be lost sight of.
Still early days and hopefully we will improve and be in a position to "cut loose" in the championship.

deisedude

Interesting post Horseboxhead but could you just break it into paragraphs a bit next time. Very hard to read a big block of text

carter10

Very good post Horseboxhead and I would agreed with 95% of it but and I'm not trying to start an argument here but you state - Brick did what he does, some man, sorry I just dont see it and haven't seen it for quite some time. I'm not anti Brick, he's been a huge player for us over the years but for me his performances, particularly this year have been very poor. I know he's in there to win 'dirty ball' and distribute it but he's not winning ball and not distributing it.

letsseehere14

bullpost wrote:

Objectively we overachieved last year. Still a very young team. If we'd gone into this campaign with lots of experimenting I think there's a chance that the advances made last year might be lost sight of. Still early days and hopefully we will improve and be in a position to "cut loose" in the championship.

I don't want to sound harsh as an outsider but perhaps last year was a little too much too soon for Waterford. No doubt they are up there in the top 4 now but if memory serves me correctly ye grabbed a draw against Limerick in the last minute of the league opener. Grabbed a last minute win against a Tipp team missing a huge number of defenders in the league semi and played a poor cork side to win it. A poor cork side again in the Munster semi before being, in my opinion, easily beaten by Tipp and Kilkenny.
On another day or days, these are games Waterford could have lost and it would have been an average year in all. Fine lines. But it highlights the gap between success and failure.
Now Waterford did win those matches in the league and fair play to them. Just trying to highlight that although ye are closer to the big 2 or 3, ye aren't that far ahead of the rest either.

culbaire

bullpost wrote: »

Objectively we overachieved last year. Still a very young team. If we'd gone into this campaign with lots of experimenting I think there's a chance that the advances made last year might be lost sight of.
Still early days and hopefully we will improve and be in a position to "cut loose" in the championship.

There are 7 or 8 players on this team who would not be classed as particularly young. I detest this bastardised hurling poisoned by the idiotic system. Months ago I posted this. How The hell can one player in the full forward line -marked by three backs- hope to achieve very much? This so called system is a cop out. It is designed to cover a major weakness in the full back line.

Who the hell wants to pay good money going to see ruck and maul hurling? We get enough rucks and mauls in Rugby Union. The reaction of a lot of supporters to this style of hurling is disgust. I am fed up of watching it. It is even poisoning club hurling in Waterford. Out with it!!!!!!!

In with the traditional Waterford style of free flowing hurling. No more of this nonsense of having just one player in the full forward line. A weak Cork team changed tactics on Saturday night and went for the traditional Cork style of free flowing hurling. The Cork /Kilkenny game was a wonderful spectacle.

Oh for a Justin McCarthy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mountgomery burns

I've gone beyond the point of despair, so instead I find it quite amusing at the consternation over a league game. No matter what angle you look at it it's funny, most pertinently the fact that we won the prior 3 and the result was irrelevant really.

But I think the thing I'm enjoying most is the hypocrisy in those that are most damning in their criticism of the team and tactics especially would have said after the first three wins "we can't get ahead of ourselves it's only the league".

We can't get behind ourselves either it seems.