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Child Item

Child Killed in Sulky Accident

foggy_lad

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/boy-11-killed-when-the-pony-and-trap-he-was-travelling-on-collided-with-truck-34489544.html

When are the authorities going to take proper action and stop this senseless loss of life? When are Horses going to be banned in city areas and taken from children and teens?

How many children have to die before the councils and government get their act together and round up all these horses and euthanise them?

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foggy_lad

Cienciano wrote: »

Loads of sulkeys driven by kids around the D12 D10 area. Don't blame the councils and government, blame the families that let their kids out on the road with them. Same with the families that let their kids out on scramblers.

But the council have an obligation under the control of horses act which they appear to be ignoring, Is there no company that would make money from collection storage and transporting these animals to slaughter?

The law needs to be tweaked to make microchipping obligatory before any other license or passport is provided and all animals not chipped to be rounded up and destroyed with no grace period or appeal. do not let people think that they can buy a horse out of the pound by producing a few papers and a few hundred euro.

Tilikum

foggy_lad wrote: »

But the council have an obligation under the control of horses act which they appear to be ignoring, Is there no company that would make money from collection storage and transporting these animals to slaughter?

The law needs to be tweaked to make microchipping obligatory before any other license or passport is provided and all animals not chipped to be rounded up and destroyed with no grace period or appeal. do not let people think that they can buy a horse out of the pound by producing a few papers and a few hundred euro.

'How many children have to die before the councils and government get their act together and round up all these horses and euthanise them'

Christ on a bike.

gctest50

Tilikum wrote: »

'How many children have to die before the councils and government get their act together and round up all these horses and euthanise them'

Christ on a bike.

and what will it take ;

Cienciano

foggy_lad wrote: »

But the council have an obligation under the control of horses act which they appear to be ignoring, Is there no company that would make money from collection storage and transporting these animals to slaughter?

The law needs to be tweaked to make microchipping obligatory before any other license or passport is provided and all animals not chipped to be rounded up and destroyed with no grace period or appeal. do not let people think that they can buy a horse out of the pound by producing a few papers and a few hundred euro.

Someone posted a link saying you have to be 16 to be in control of a horse on a public road. Sometimes you see kids on a sulkie and seriously, they wouldn't even be 10.
Police don't bother their arse because I assume they just get abuse from the parents and nothing is done anyway. The families have to take responsibility.
People think they're entitled to do what ever they want, maybe a few cheap lessons is needed here.

Tilikum

gctest50 wrote: »

and what will it take ;

What are you trying to say, it's the poor horse's fault?

gctest50

Tilikum wrote: »

What are you trying to say, it's the poor horse's fault?

No, the stuff in that youtube isn't on though

and they won't go to waste, healthier than beef and tasty :

oppenheimer1

Discodog wrote: »

If you seize & euthanise horses they will simply go out & get more. The death is the responsibility of the parents for allowing the child to be in charge of the horse & even more the authorities who make pointless law because they don't enforce it.

Any person who is going to ride a horse or drive a horse on a public road should have passed a test. The animal should be chipped, registered & insured. If you get a horse illegally then you should expect to have it seized & then you be made responsible for the cost of it's upkeep - by deduction from benefits if necessary.

One horse in an estate or one sulky video on youtube encourages children but it's the parents responsibility. Ireland is so good at making law & hopeless at enforcing them especially if it means going near the Traveller community.

The problem is made so much worse because of the still primitive Irish view of animal welfare. We should have a countrywide organisation like the RSPCA but the Irish public won't pay for it.

I disagree. I don't see you can apportion a larger amount of the blame to the state over the parents. Its basic common sense that you don't let children drive horses on roads. A parent shouldn't need the risk of enforcement as a deterrent, the obvious danger should be enough.

[Deleted User]

Kev W wrote: »

My greatest hope for you is that you have a child that dies and that people find it funny.

Holy fcuk.

How hypocritical of you. You think that it's not ok to joke about a child's death (I agree) but you think it is ok to wish for someone's child to die?

What in the actual fcuk would make you think that posting something like that was a good idea.

Jesus.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

Do you really think mandatory BHS exams are going to do anything to the people who cause problems? The type of people who cause the problems are not going to be the type to pay any heed to the exams.

It means that responsible owners and breeders would not have bred majority of those horses out there today. It means that if it wasn't for every Tom, Dick and Harry buying a pony or two when they had money, despite not knowing the tail from the head, there wouldn't be so much rubbish.

There is, which reinforced the need to get rid of a few horses. We are overpopulated.

And yeah, that old line. I remember you throwing that at me before... it doesn't make it any more true...

No see, unlike cats and dogs, horses have gone back to being owned by people who want to invest the time and money into them. They aren't being bred like rats anymore. Them becoming disposable caused the problem in the first place.

It's perfectly reasonable that any person, who wishes to ride or drive a horse on the public highway, is qualified, registered & insured. The only legislation now are local laws which relate to registering the horse & not licensing the rider. If we had a riding license the Guards could police it.

The people that abuse horses consider it their "right " to own them. You won't stop that by killing horses. You have to make it so that the financial penalty is strong enough to deter irresponsible ownership.

You really are ill informed if you think that cats & dogs are being bred & owned responsibly. Tell that to the thousands that are killed every year.

Discodog

foggy_lad wrote: »

These horses and foals and ponies are worthless, they have no value apart from what the knacker man will pay for them. If councils round them up and change the law so that a licence is only issued to horses which are chipped and dispatch all horses without a microchip in a humane way as quickly as possible it will stop people from getting more as the supply of worthless horses will dry up and price will rise beyond the reach of kids.

If you really cared about them you would see them humanely euthanised rather than live a life of agony and torture.

It is time to change people's attitude that they are entitled to keep a horse when they have no money and no land to keep a dog nevermind a horse!

How will killing horses stop people getting more ? Effective enforcement would but it doesn't exist. You have to remove the source or have effective law enforcement.

Really care ? I have spent over 30 years involved in animal welfare, rescue, lobbying, legislation etc. I have monitored traveller horses - have you ? The vast majority aren't being tortured or in agony. Your hyperbole doesn't help reasonable debate.

The problem is that where there is cruelty there aren't the resources to prosecute it & sometime neither the will. How do you think that 5 ISPCA Inspectors can cover the Country ?

You won't change the attitude of a group who consider it their right & "culture". You have to make law & then ensure that it is enforced.

Discodog

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I disagree. I don't see you can apportion a larger amount of the blame to the state over the parents. Its basic common sense that you don't let children drive horses on roads. A parent shouldn't need the risk of enforcement as a deterrent, the obvious danger should be enough.

There are plenty of examples of where the State implements law to protect people from their own negligence or stupidity. A parent shouldn't need the risk of enforcement but in reality they probably do. If their offspring were arrested, charged & then the parents made to pay the penalty, they might learn.

Unless you license riders the Guards have precious little to act on. A horse is every bit as dangerous as a car but it's not even illegal to ride one without head protection.

Arbiter of Good Taste

Discodog wrote: »

And you are speaking here as someone who likes horses :rolleyes:

Well as someone who likes horses and who grew up riding and caring for horses, I agree that sulkies have no place on roads. Most of these people have no idea how to care for horses. You see half starved, unshod ponies running up tarmacced roads, being whipped like nobody's business. It's an absolute disgrace.

But then I guess it's better just to be politically correct. :rolleyes:

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote:

It's perfectly reasonable that any person, who wishes to ride or drive a horse on the public highway, is qualified, registered & insured. The only legislation now are local laws which relate to registering the horse & not licensing the rider. If we had a riding license the Guards could police it.

Which isn't going to happen due to the diversity of riders.

Discodog wrote:

The people that abuse horses consider it their "right " to own them. You won't stop that by killing horses. You have to make it so that the financial penalty is strong enough to deter irresponsible ownership.

The people who abandoned the horses are mostly the ones that knew sweet f-all about them. They bought them when money was good and then realised that there was a lot more to them.
Who does and doesn't abuse horses has nothing to do with the thread.

Discodog wrote:

You really are ill informed if you think that cats & dogs are being bred & owned responsibly. Tell that to the thousands that are killed every year.

Not once in any of my posts did I suggest that...

volchitsa

Stheno wrote: »

WHile a tragedy, when is the last time another accident like this happened causing loss of life?

I can think of at least two instances in the last four years where underage drivers caused loss of life in cars, but not sulkies.

A lot more lives would be saved by banning cars in general, but I don't think that the loss of life matters that much to many people. Put down lots of horses, sure, no problem - put yourself out, what, are you mad?

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

Which isn't going to happen due to the diversity of riders.

The people who abandoned the horses are mostly the ones that knew sweet f-all about them. They bought them when money was good and then realised that there was a lot more to them.
Who does and doesn't abuse horses has nothing to do with the thread.

Not once in any of my posts did I suggest that...

So we don't license cars drivers due to their diversity ? If you only ride off road then fine. But if you ride on the road you should be qualified. I am surprised that you oppose this as the "industry" would benefit from the tuition & testing.

Yes thankfully less are being abandoned. But I bet that the numbers kept by the traveller community weren't that affected by the recession.

It has everything to do with the thread. If the horse was being kept & trained properly the accident would not have happened because the horse wouldn't of been on the streets.

You said "horses have gone back to being owned by people who want to invest the time and money into them." If that really is the case then what is the problem ? Your posts are very confusing. You say that we need a mass cull & then say that horses are being responsibly owned.

Discodog

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

Well as someone who likes horses and who grew up riding and caring for horses, I agree that sulkies have no place on roads. Most of these people have no idea how to care for horses. You see half starved, unshod ponies running up tarmacced roads, being whipped like nobody's business. It's an absolute disgrace.

But then I guess it's better just to be politically correct. :rolleyes:

If you make Councils responsible for law it won't work because they have neither the time, money or will to implement the law. A lot of problem areas haven't even been designated for Control of Horses legislation.

From what I have seen the Traffic Corp don't appear to be concerned with political correctness. It would be easy for them to stop a rider or sulky, ask for their license & prosecute.

We now have the best animal cruelty legislation in Europe but, in typical Irish style, no one to enforce it. The dangerous riding/driving & the cruelty could be stopped quickly & easily if the Irish public cared enough.

If I saw a horse being ill treated in the UK I know that I would get an immediate response from the RSPCA who would be well supported by the Police. Here we have a pony being stoned to death by schoolchildren & nothing is done.

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote:

So we don't license cars drivers due to their diversity ? If you only ride off road then fine. But if you ride on the road you should be qualified. I am surprised that you oppose this as the "industry" would benefit from the tuition & testing.

It could be anything from 4 year old upwards that are on the road. Do you suggest making children sit the license? What if you need to cross the road only? What if you are leading the horse? What if you are leading a horse with someone on it?

Discodog wrote:

Yes thankfully less are being abandoned. But I bet that the numbers kept by the traveller community weren't that affected by the recession.

And won't be by any regulation.

Discodog wrote:

It has everything to do with the thread. If the horse was being kept & trained properly the accident would not have happened because the horse wouldn't of been on the streets.

But there is absolutely no evidence the horse in the article was abused. If you think a horse can just go on the road fully trained, or even if a fully trained horse can't spook... it just shows your level of ignorance.

Discodog wrote:

You said "horses have gone back to being owned by people who want to invest the time and money into them." If that really is the case then what is the problem ? Your posts are very confusing. You say that we need a mass cull & then say that horses are being responsibly owned.

And the people who don't want to invest the time and money have abandoned the horses. The abandoned horses are still out there. We are still over populated.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

It could be anything from 4 year old upwards that are on the road. Do you suggest making children sit the license? What if you need to cross the road only? What if you are leading the horse? What if you are leading a horse with someone on it?

And won't be by any regulation.

But there is absolutely no evidence the horse in the article was abused. If you think a horse can just go on the road fully trained, or even if a fully trained horse can't spook... it just shows your level of ignorance.

And the people who don't want to invest the time and money have abandoned the horses. The abandoned horses are still out there. We are still over populated.

The 4 year old or anyone underage would have to be supervised by a licensed adult. Do you think that a 4 year old should on a horse unsupervised ? :eek: If you are leading then you should be qualified.

If the law is applied equally to all then all will be controlled by legislation but it's a big if.

The horse in question was abused because it was taken on to the public road by an unqualified person. The horse was at risk & deliberately putting an animal at risk is abuse - like in horse racing

You are showing your ignorance if you think that all the unwanted horses were all from uncaring owners. A lot of people got badly caught out including farmers. Many of these people made big sacrifices to hold on to their stock & try to see out the recession.

None of the major parties mentioned animal welfare in their manifestos. Why ? Because the Irish public don't care about it.

Ave Sodalis

Discodog wrote:

The 4 year old or anyone underage would have to be supervised by a licensed adult. Do you think that a 4 year old should on a horse unsupervised ? If you are leading then you should be qualified.

Ah quit with the hyperbole... even if leading an adult? What about walking beside a horse?

Discodog wrote:

The horse in question was abused because it was taken on to the public road by an unqualified person. The horse was at risk & deliberately putting an animal at risk is abuse - like in horse racing

See nonsense like this is why real animal cruelty cant be tackled...

Discodog wrote:

You are showing your ignorance if you think that all the unwanted horses were all from uncaring owners. A lot of people got badly caught out including farmers. Many of these people made big sacrifices to hold on to their stock & try to see out the recession.

Do you really think any caring owner would dump their horse in a forest and leave it there?

[Deleted User]

I think in Ireland the majority of the public really don't have any great concern about animal welfare, which is sad. Yes, they may have their own pet and look after it well, but in general overall they don't much care about the welfare of animals who are not being looked after or treated well.

Honestly, I don't care if this boy loved horses or not. The fact is that he was 12 years old and should not have been out driving a sulky on a public road. I grew up in the city and loved horses, but I didn't get to keep one in my backyard or on the local green. What has changed that has made people think they have a right to do that?

I would support a round up of all horses being kept in unsuitable conditions and not being looked after properly. And if they had to be humanely put to sleep, I think thats a better fate for them than that which awaits some of the misfortunate creatures you see around certain parts of Dublin. And this horse keeping is a 'trend' in certain parts of Dublin only. It needs to be outlawed for the good of all. Kids have enough things to do without keeping ( and often abusing) living creatures.

foggy_lad

Discodog wrote: »

It's perfectly reasonable that any person, who wishes to ride or drive a horse on the public highway, is qualified, registered & insured. The only legislation now are local laws which relate to registering the horse & not licensing the rider. If we had a riding license the Guards could police it.

The people that abuse horses consider it their "right " to own them. You won't stop that by killing horses. You have to make it so that the financial penalty is strong enough to deter irresponsible ownership.

You really are ill informed if you think that cats & dogs are being bred & owned responsibly. Tell that to the thousands that are killed every year.

The people with these horses foals and ponies will not sit tests and will not pay any penalties for a horse they swapped a ps4 game for!

Their parents will not be held accountable either as most will claim an inability to prevent the children from getting their horses and taking them onto the streets.

Discodog wrote: »

There are plenty of examples of where the State implements law to protect people from their own negligence or stupidity. A parent shouldn't need the risk of enforcement but in reality they probably do. If their offspring were arrested, charged & then the parents made to pay the penalty, they might learn.

Unless you license riders the Guards have precious little to act on. A horse is every bit as dangerous as a car but it's not even illegal to ride one without head protection.

Again the parents can't be held accountable as the laws currently stand.

@Discodog as for a Garda standing in front of a horse and trying to stop it.......What planet would you be on to think that would ever happen?

The courts are useless regarding this issue and the Gardai are not going to be able to enforce any new laws as they can't enforce those already here, the councils don't care as it costs them money to go collect these horses(under armed Gardai escort).

The only reasonable and acceptable solution is an immediate cull of all undocumented and illegally owned horses ponies and foals.

Your Face

foggy_lad wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/boy-11-killed-when-the-pony-and-trap-he-was-travelling-on-collided-with-truck-34489544.html

When are the authorities going to take proper action and stop this senseless loss of life? When are Horses going to be banned in city areas and taken from children and teens?

How many children have to die before the councils and government get their act together and round up all these horses and euthanise them?

AHHHHAHHAHAHAHAHHHHHAAAAAA

Nermal

topmanamillion wrote: »

I understand there's a tradition there

We should pay no attention to the traditions of scrotes.

Ave Sodalis

foggy_lad wrote:

@sup_dude as for a Garda standing in front of a horse and trying to stop it.......What planet would you be on to think that would ever happen?

What?

foggy_lad wrote:

The only reasonable and acceptable solution is an immediate cull of all undocumented and illegally owned horses ponies and foals.

This I wouldn't support.

foggy_lad

sup_dude wrote: »

What?

Apologies, The reference to the traffic corps stopping these horses on the roads was from another poster, I have amended my thread

This I wouldn't support.

You make a living/money from horses so I wouldn't expect you to support it but when all details and avenues are investigated and probed a massive and ongoing cull of illegal horses and ponies is the only solution.

Discodog

foggy_lad wrote: »

Apologies, The reference to the traffic corps stopping these horses on the roads was from another poster, I have amended my thread

You make a living/money from horses so I wouldn't expect you to support it but when all details and avenues are investigated and probed a massive and ongoing cull of illegal horses and ponies is the only solution.

So your answer is not to try & enforce the law, not to make the offender pay but kill all the horses that we are supposed to be caring about. What kind of message does that give out ? Why try & rehome a dog, cat or pony - just kill them.

Your defeatist attitude is making the problem worse. We should be demanding that the Councils & Guards enforce the law & not copying them by wringing our hands & saying "well what can you do".

Discodog

foggy_lad wrote: »

The people with these horses foals and ponies will not sit tests and will not pay any penalties for a horse they swapped a ps4 game for!

Their parents will not be held accountable either as most will claim an inability to prevent the children from getting their horses and taking them onto the streets.

Again the parents can't be held accountable as the laws currently stand.

@Discodog as for a Garda standing in front of a horse and trying to stop it.......What planet would you be on to think that would ever happen?

The courts are useless regarding this issue and the Gardai are not going to be able to enforce any new laws as they can't enforce those already here, the councils don't care as it costs them money to go collect these horses(under armed Gardai escort).

The only reasonable and acceptable solution is an immediate cull of all undocumented and illegally owned horses ponies and foals.

All he has to do is follow the culprit home. The UK police would have no problem.

Discodog

sup_dude wrote: »

Ah quit with the hyperbole... even if leading an adult? What about walking beside a horse?
See nonsense like this is why real animal cruelty cant be tackled...
Do you really think any caring owner would dump their horse in a forest and leave it there?

If you are in charge of a horse on a public road you should be qualified.

Real cruelty can't be tacked because the public don't care & your industry has immense lobbying power. The government would rather make money out of horses rather than helping them.

No & many didn't. Volunteers fed the traveller horses in Galway & local farmers helped out with feed. People did something positive & helped the horses whereas you would of killed them. It seems bizarre that someone, who chose to work with horses, has such little regard for them.

It's the Irish way with animals. Overbreed them, make money out of them & kill what isn't needed.

Elemonator

Why was he with the horse on the road? He is just a kid. At his age, he wouldn't be allowed to drive a car and horses can be dangerous in the right circumstances. So why should he be legally allowed on the road?

Don't care what background you are from, doesn't give you the right to do what you like.

foggy_lad

Discodog wrote: »

All he has to do is follow the culprit home. The UK police would have no problem.

Too much of an outlay of resources for something that will only be referred to some juvenile liaison nonsense.

These are mostly kids and the parents are usually not far off being kids themselves and the only way of dealing with it is to remove the animals, What are we supposed to do with thousands of horses and ponies that nobody wants and nobody will pay to feed and house?