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Ireland and Schengen (EU)

Jamie2k9

First time poster here so sorry if wrong place but just wanted to know if Ireland was ever to join Schengen would it require a referendum. Reason I ask is I was looking online and I came across a post that the Lisbon Treaty means Government here can decided. I am not sure if this was part of the first or second vote.

If the UK leave (expect they won't) Ireland will be the only country not part of Schengen and while the UK won't be part some EU countries may try force them to get a trade deal like Switzerland/Norway.

Could the EU try force us into it and I have no faith in a single TD rejecting it from any party.

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Jamie2k9 wrote: »

First time poster here so sorry if wrong place but just wanted to know if Ireland was ever to join Schengen would it require a referendum. Reason I ask is I was looking online and I came across a post that the Lisbon Treaty means Government here can decided. I am not sure if this was part of the first or second vote.

It would not require a referendum. Lisbon had nothing to do with it. The relevant referendum was the one on the Treaty of Amsterdam.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If the UK leave (expect they won't) Ireland will be the only country not part of Schengen and while the UK won't be part some EU countries may try force them to get a trade deal like Switzerland/Norway.

No one is going to force the UK to get a trade deal. That's not a basis for a fruitful negotiation.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Could the EU try force us into it and I have no faith in a single TD rejecting it from any party.

No one is going to force us into it. My reading of the relevant protocol is that we would be required implement Schengen rules should the UK exit. That would take some time to do obviously.

munchkin_utd

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

<snip>

Could the EU try force us into it and I have no faith in a single TD rejecting it from any party.

You can be sure that EVERY TD from the border region would be vehemently against any idea of bringing border checks to the land border with the north, which is what would happen if Ireland was in Schengen and UK not

So (like a lot of the scare mongering "theories" in politics Cafe) this isn't going to happen

There's also no major benefit to Ireland in being part of Schengen unless Ireland had a land border with other Schengen countries, which it doesnt and never will.
Ireland has its own version of Schengen with the common travel area with the UK, which could remain in place even if the UK is not in the EU.

View

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Ireland has its own version of Schengen with the common travel area with the UK, which could remain in place even if the UK is not in the EU.

You are welcome to show us which part of the EU Treaties state the common travel area would remain in place should the UK leave the EU.

Eugene Norman

View wrote: »

You are welcome to show us which part of the EU Treaties state the common travel area would remain in place should the UK leave the EU.

The common travel area is agreed between Ireland and the U.K. It preceded the EU.

View

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The common travel area is agreed between Ireland and the U.K. It preceded the EU.

The very first mention of the common travel area in ANY international treaty is in the Treaty of Amsterdam - an EU Treaty. Prior to that the CTA was a strictly 'ad hoc' arrangement that came into existence by default (originally between what were then two parts of the same Empire).

That though does not mean that, should the UK exit, the future continued existence of the CTA is compatible with our commitments as a member of the EU. The judges on the CJEU aren't going to ignore the EU Treaties today because of decisions made in the 1920s.

andrew

View wrote: »

The very first mention of the common travel area in ANY international treaty is in the Treaty of Amsterdam - an EU Treaty. Prior to that the CTA was a strictly 'ad hoc' arrangement that came into existence by default (originally between what were then two parts of the same Empire).

That though does not mean that, should the UK exit, the future continued existence of the CTA is compatible with our commitments as a member of the EU. The judges on the CJEU aren't going to ignore the EU Treaties today because of decisions made in the 1920s.

To be clear, you're saying that if Brexit was a thing, there's a chance (in principle even) that the CTA between the UK and Ireland could come to an end?

Eugene Norman

View wrote: »

The very first mention of the common travel area in ANY international treaty is in the Treaty of Amsterdam - an EU Treaty. Prior to that the CTA was a strictly 'ad hoc' arrangement that came into existence by default (originally between what were then two parts of the same Empire).

That though does not mean that, should the UK exit, the future continued existence of the CTA is compatible with our commitments as a member of the EU. The judges on the CJEU aren't going to ignore the EU Treaties today because of decisions made in the 1920s.

The first mention of the common travel area was in a 1952 act. No that the name matters.

The judges on the CJEU can go rot if they think they are going to impose restrictions on irelands borders policy. Since we aren't in schegen it wouldn't matter.

munchkin_utd

The CTA has a long and complicated history, as outlined in this 21 page analysis document :
https://kar.kent.ac.uk/234/1/Common_Travel_area.pdf

The Amsterdam treaty can be read a few ways, but it does state clearly that Ireland and the UK are allowed to continue on their own CTA and be exempted from Schengen.
If the UK is no longer part of the EU, then it would not mean that this clause falls. It would mean that Ireland has a common travel area with the UK, who no longer are in the EU. Non EU countries like Norway and Iceland are also dealt with in the treaty so it wouldnt be the only non EU country mentioned there.

dissed doc

I would actually think Brexit means absolutely no chance of Ireland ever being in Schengen. Besides making no sense (we are already an island) the Cta with a non-EU UK would mean if we were in Schengen, that illegals in Schengen could enter the UK via Ireland.

So, I actually think the opposite. Anyway, Schengen is dead or as good as. It worked back when it was EU-12 for western Europe, it doesnt work when trying to bring the third world in (car theft, people smuggling, cross border crime, illegal immigration).

Things change, nothing is set in stone. Continental Europe will always be in a state of flux, in a way that islands are not. Schengen is long past its sell by date.

View

andrew wrote: »

To be clear, you're saying that if Brexit was a thing, there's a chance (in principle even) that the CTA between the UK and Ireland could come to an end?

Yes based on the current wording of the Treaties.

View

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The first mention of the common travel area was in a 1952 act. No that the name matters.

An act isn't an international treaty and even if it was one, should we have two mutually contradictory commitments in international treaties, we would obviously have to chose one over the other and get the other one rewritten to reflect that (and rewriting the EU Treaties is not a simple task either politically or legally).

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The judges on the CJEU can go rot if they think they are going to impose restrictions on irelands borders policy. Since we aren't in schegen it wouldn't matter.

The judges are perfectly entitled to interpret the treaties. Ultimately, if you want to be an EU member, you have to accept their judgements even if you don't like them.

View

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The CTA has a long and complicated history, as outlined in this 21 page analysis document :
https://kar.kent.ac.uk/234/1/Common_Travel_area.pdf

The Amsterdam treaty can be read a few ways, but it does state clearly that Ireland and the UK are allowed to continue on their own CTA and be exempted from Schengen.

That is correct but the EU Treaties are both written on the basis that both Ireland and the U.K. are members (and continue to be). They do not include any statement that the exemption would continue in the event of a UK exit.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

If the UK is no longer part of the EU, then it would not mean that this clause falls. It would mean that Ireland has a common travel area with the UK, who no longer are in the EU.

Based on my reading of the exemption it does mean that it falls.

Why?

Because the exemption basically is:

1) The UK is exempt from the Schengen requirements.
2) Ireland is allowed the same exemption as the UK is allowed in 1) above (and subject to the CTA continuing).

A UK exit means clause 1) would no longer apply to the UK, so it would be void. Therefore under clause 2), Ireland's exemption would be void.

[

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Non EU countries like Norway and Iceland are also dealt with in the treaty so it wouldnt be the only non EU country mentioned there.

This is not true as neither are EU members. Both of these are Schengen members as a result of seperate agreements with the EU.

oscarBravo

View wrote: »

An act isn't an international treaty and even if it was one, should we have two mutually contradictory commitments in international treaties, we would obviously have to chose one over the other and get the other one rewritten to reflect that (and rewriting the EU Treaties is not a simple task either politically or legally).

There's something that just occurred to me on reading that: wouldn't the treaties have to be amended anyway if the UK exits?

After all, the treaties explicitly list the UK as a member, and any protocols that refer directly to the UK would have to be removed. Granted, the process of removing the UK wouldn't involve any transfer of sovereignty per se and as such shouldn't require a referendum - but isn't treaty change a given?

View

dissed doc wrote: »

I would actually think Brexit means absolutely no chance of Ireland ever being in Schengen. Besides making no sense (we are already an island) the Cta with a non-EU UK would mean if we were in Schengen, that illegals in Schengen could enter the UK via Ireland.

Quite the opposite.

The EU has freedom of movement of people as a core principle. Therefore any EU citizen can visit Ireland as you well know. They can also proceed directly to the border and cross it unhindered. That's fine as both are EU members.

Should the UK leave and introduce visas for EU citizens, as many LEAVE supporters want the UK to do, then obviously any EU citizen denied a UK visa who wants to work illegal in the UK could exercise their right to freedom of movement and catch a Ryanair flight to Dublin, proceed northwards and duly enter the UK via the border. That could amount to thousands per week (based on current EU immigration levels to the UK). There is no way that would be politically acceptable to the UK.

So, to stop that, should the UK go the visa route, there would need to be border controls to enforce those visas and admit/reject people accordingly.That would mean there would either need to be border controls on the RoI-NI border, between NI-GB (and operating a border within a country would cause political hell), or, we in the RoI would need to do the job for the UK which would mean we would need to either violate the EU Treaties on freedom of movement and/or get them entirely re-written to allow for this. Of those, the former is illegal under EU law and the latter is politically dead in the water - the EU weren't prepared to do this for David Cameron so there is no chance they'll do so for Enda K.

The simplest way to avoid this is of course for the UK to opt not to leave but should they do so, barring the UK leaving and continuing to operate EU freedom of movement, it would be very difficult to see any scenario where border controls can be avoided.

View

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's something that just occurred to me on reading that: wouldn't the treaties have to be amended anyway if the UK exits?

After all, the treaties explicitly list the UK as a member, and any protocols that refer directly to the UK would have to be removed. Granted, the process of removing the UK wouldn't involve any transfer of sovereignty per se and as such shouldn't require a referendum - but isn't treaty change a given?

Ultimately, yes.

As I outlined in my last post, I don't see how border controls can be avoided in practise should the UK opt to leave and apply visas while we remain EU members and are commited to the core EU principle of freedom of movement.

I'd also have to say, that while other member states might be sympathetic to us, they aren't going to rip up freedom of movement for us. We might get a temporary reprieve on implementation if, let's say, NI indicated it was just about to leave the UK but I suspect there is zero prospect of that happening.

dissed doc

View wrote: »

Ultimately, yes.

As I outlined in my last post, I don't see how border controls can be avoided in practise should the UK opt to leave and apply visas while we remain EU members and are commited to the core EU principle of freedom of movement.

I'd also have to say, that while other member states might be sympathetic to us, they aren't going to rip up freedom of movement for us. We might get a temporary reprieve on implementation if, let's say, NI indicated it was just about to leave the UK but I suspect there is zero prospect of that happening.

Freedom of movement in Europe post-Schengen will require visas or passports anyway. It is effectively dead at the moment for non-EU passport holders.

Schengen is irrelevant, has been for months already. Denmark, Norway, Switzerland are all quite heavily active now in border patrol. Norway is ready to even abandon the Geneva convention if/when Sweden's ultra-left asylum system collapses.

If/when the UK leaves, it would simple to simple legislate an actual common travel area between Ireland and the UK independent of the EU, i.e., no longer as a "hole" in Schengen but as a defined common border. That is not unique in the EU.

I.e., free movement for all EU passport holders. And Irish passport holders also get free movement into the UK, just like it always was. No need for borders anywhere. People in the UK can freely come to Dublin before Schengen, and will freely come after it as well.

Northern Ireland as a country in the UK can also independently negotiate an open border with RoI. And if you want to visit Britain from NI, you still need a passport. Nothing would change except some paperwork.

Anita Blow

I may be wrong, but we don't derive our power to establish/maintain the CTA from the Amsterdam Treaty. The CTA was in existence long before that. The treaty merely recognises the CTA in its text. I should see no reason why the CTA would dissolve if the UK were to leave. Michael Noonan stated it would remain and no borders would be reinstated if the UK were to leave, and I imagine the Irish government would've carried out an analysis on the ramifications of a Brexit already

Scofflaw

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The CTA has a long and complicated history, as outlined in this 21 page analysis document :
https://kar.kent.ac.uk/234/1/Common_Travel_area.pdf

The Amsterdam treaty can be read a few ways, but it does state clearly that Ireland and the UK are allowed to continue on their own CTA and be exempted from Schengen.
If the UK is no longer part of the EU, then it would not mean that this clause falls. It would mean that Ireland has a common travel area with the UK, who no longer are in the EU. Non EU countries like Norway and Iceland are also dealt with in the treaty so it wouldnt be the only non EU country mentioned there.

To some extent, this is probably correct. In the absence of any reason to the contrary, the norm of international law is that treaties continue in force. While the UK would obviously be withdrawing from the EU treaties in the event of Brexit, Ireland would not be - unless the Protocol in question was formally struck out, it should be assumed to continue in force because Ireland has not withdrawn from the Treaty it's part of.

There are, however, serious practical issues in maintaining the CTA between an EU member and a non-EU member. We already have the Schengen area border between us and the rest of the EU as a result of the CTA, and if we maintain the CTA that border would have to be strengthened to whatever extent was appropriate for the status the UK negotiates with the EU. That could lead to us having almost an external EU border to cross to get into the rest of the EU - a situation which seems very messy (implying pressure to tidy it), but is also perhaps the least dissimilar arrangement to the status quo.

The more I look at it, the more this seems like the most probable outcome - it represents a slight hardening of the current arrangements, with no border between here and NI, free travel between the UK and Ireland, and somewhat increased security checks between ourselves and the rest of the EU. However, much depends on the arrangements negotiated between the UK and the rest of us after exit - there may be a level of separation which makes continuance of the CTA impossibly difficult. If the UK opted for EEA membership, on the other hand, I don't see that there would be any practical change at all (Norway, which is EEA, is in the Scandinavian CTA).

cordially,
Scofflaw

[Deleted User]

Report in this morning's Irish Times, quoting from a Cabinet Office report that customs checks on goods crossing the border with NI may return, plus it also casts doubt on the continuance of the CTA in the event of a Brexit.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-to-trigger-return-of-ni-cross-border-controls-report-1.2554732

EDIT: here is the Cabinet Office report: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/503830/54538_EU_Series_No2_Print_ready.pdf

See page 19 & page 22 (section 5.10) re NI.

dissed doc

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Report in this morning's Irish Times, quoting from a Cabinet Office report that customs checks on goods crossing the border with NI may return, plus it also casts doubt on the continuance of the CTA in the event of a Brexit.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/brexit-to-trigger-return-of-ni-cross-border-controls-report-1.2554732

EDIT: here is the Cabinet Office report: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/503830/54538_EU_Series_No2_Print_ready.pdf

See page 19 re NI.

Ridiculous assertion.

If the UK-Ireland CTA existed before the EU, and during the EU it can exist after the UK leaves just as well.

The UK leaving doesnt mean we suddenly have to join Schengen. especially if it is against our (and the UKs) policial and economic interests.

The EU is not "the government" nor is it in charge of Ireland.

Ireland can independently, and explicitly as an island, being independent of Schengen and the EU border system, agree witg the UK the continuance of the UK-Ireland common travel zone.

The only thing that would put borders between the Roi and NI is Schengen. We are not in it. If we join it, up goes a border due to the EU (and whatever complicit government of Ireland enforxes it).

If it does not make sense economically, socially or politically, we do not have to do it.

Schengen, whatever it was, mostly a common border for continental Europe, is dead anyway. Within the EU groups of countries have already been agreeing local common border policy.

Scofflaw

dissed doc wrote: »

Ridiculous assertion.

If the UK-Ireland CTA existed before the EU, and during the EU it can exist after the UK leaves just as well.

The UK leaving doesnt mean we suddenly have to join Schengen. especially if it is against our (and the UKs) policial and economic interests.

The EU is not "the government" nor is it in charge of Ireland.

Ireland can independently, and explicitly as an island, being independent of Schengen and the EU border system, agree witg the UK the continuance of the UK-Ireland common travel zone.

The only thing that would put borders between the Roi and NI is Schengen. We are not in it. If we join it, up goes a border due to the EU (and whatever complicit government of Ireland enforxes it).

If it does not make sense economically, socially or politically, we do not have to do it.

Schengen, whatever it was, mostly a common border for continental Europe, is dead anyway. Within the EU groups of countries have already been agreeing local common border policy.

Unfortunately, this is mere "it won't be a problem" hand-waving. The one thing we clearly cannot do is maintain the CTA without the support of the UK for doing so, and the UK is clearly having to think about the CTA in the light of Brexit.

To quote from the Cabinet Office report:

Northern Ireland would be confronted with difficult issues about the relationship with Ireland. Outside the EU’s Customs Union, it would be necessary to impose customs checks on the movement of goods across the border. Questions would also need to be answered about the Common Travel Area which covers the movement of people. This could have an impact on cross-border co-operation and trade. The withdrawal of structural funds, which have helped address economic challenges, would also have an impact.

If the UK decides it has to implement customs checks because it is no longer part of the customs union, then those customs checks will be between the UK and the EU, which means between the UK and Ireland.

Ireland cannot unilaterally maintain the CTA with the UK without UK cooperation, and the UK has to review the CTA in the light of being entirely outside the EU for at least some period, while Ireland is inside it. Schengen is not the issue.

cordially,
Scofflaw

[Deleted User]

Theresa Villiers appears to think the CTA will be ok. Certainly alot of conflicting signals out there.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/travel-link-would-stay-if-uk-left-the-eu-villiers-34500627.html

Charles Babbage

Deleted User wrote: »

Theresa Villiers appears to think the CTA will be ok. Certainly alot of conflicting signals out there.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/travel-link-would-stay-if-uk-left-the-eu-villiers-34500627.html

Theresa Villiers is capable of lying, as Boris Johnston did while in NI yesterday. These people do not know what will happen afterwards.

One thing is certain controls within the island of Ireland will not fly. For one thing they are useless unless a Macedonian style fence is built, as someone will simply walk across a field. Operating such controls in border areas would requires 10s of thousands of troops and the whole NI settlement would collapse, as the British would have reneged on spirit of the Good Friday Agreement. More likely controls would be the British end, this might cause a political storm among unionists but this would be only noise, it wouldn't affect the integrity of the controls.

This isn't very likely, but the British are leaving the EU to do this kind of thing, they are not entirely rational. All of which makes it amazing that the unionists are actually advocating voting for this.

Scofflaw

Deleted User wrote: »

Theresa Villiers appears to think the CTA will be ok. Certainly alot of conflicting signals out there.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/travel-link-would-stay-if-uk-left-the-eu-villiers-34500627.html

Unfortunately, she is also hand-waving:

"Since the creation of the Irish State, there has been a very close relationship between UK citizens and Irish citizens and I am convinced that that will continue," Ms Villiers said. "After all, the common travel area we enjoy between our two countries was in existence for decades before we joined the EU...there's no reason why it shouldn't continue [if a Brexit occurs]."

That it has been in existence for decades before EU accession means absolutely nothing at all, because the UK and Ireland joined at the same time, partly to avoid possible problems with UK-Ireland arrangements.

This time, on the contrary, the UK will be outside a huge customs union which Ireland will be inside. That is not a minor issue, and it is a reason why the CTA cannot simply continue as before - unless the UK can negotiate EEA membership.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sam Russell

The CTA does not apply to all people. Many years ago, I had a Chinese friend whose husband was a Junior Doctor in Dublin who then got a job in Scotland. He was born in Hong Kong and was free to travel to the UK under CTA. (I think he may have had a UK passport). His wife, who was born in mainland China, was not allowed to travel without a visa - she could live in Ireland without a visa but not travel to Scotland. If she was caught in Scotland she would have had great difficulties.

CTA applies to citizens (and subjects) of each country. EU citizens are covered by other arrangements.

Jim2007

Deleted User wrote: »

Theresa Villiers appears to think the CTA will be ok. Certainly alot of conflicting signals out there.

Well the reality is the if the UK leaves the EU, the Irish borders both land and sea become the EU borders and yes there will have to be both passport and customs controls on them. Whatever agreements the UK would obtain after an exit would have to be policed at Irish borders.

It is possible for a non-EU member to join Schengen and if both Ireland and the UK were to join then passport control could be avoided, but customs controls would still need to be applied.

Sam Russell

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well the reality is the if the UK leaves the EU, the Irish borders both land and sea become the EU borders and yes there will have to be both passport and customs controls on them. Whatever agreements the UK would obtain after an exit would have to be policed at Irish borders.

It is possible for a non-EU member to join Schengen and if both Ireland and the UK were to join then passport control could be avoided, but customs controls would still need to be applied.

Look at Switzerland for an example of what is possible.

The reason many of the 'Leavers' want to leave is because of Schengen and free movement. They do not like foreigners.

dissed doc

Jim2007 wrote: »

Well the reality is the if the UK leaves the EU, the Irish borders both land and sea become the EU borders and yes there will have to be both passport and customs controls on them. Whatever agreements the UK would obtain after an exit would have to be policed at Irish borders.

It is possible for a non-EU member to join Schengen and if both Ireland and the UK were to join then passport control could be avoided, but customs controls would still need to be applied.

Schengen is gone, how many times does it have to be said. There are border controls right now between Belgium and Netherlands.

The Ni border is tge business of UK and Ireland. The simplest solution would be a customs and passport union of RoI and NI. Anyone without a UK or IE passport needs to be border checked anyway right now in theory.

And Schengen, for the umpteenth time, is gone. And even when it was still around, neither UK or RoI were part of it. The laws of Schengen have ni application to UK or RoI inside or outside the EU.

Jim2007

dissed doc wrote: »

Schengen is gone, how many times does it have to be said. There are border controls right now between Belgium and Netherlands.

Schengen is not gone until such time as the member states agree to dismantle it. The agreement does allow for the temporary reintroduced of border controls so only time will tell how that pans out.

dissed doc wrote: »

The Ni border is tge business of UK and Ireland. The simplest solution would be a customs and passport union of RoI and NI. Anyone without a UK or IE passport needs to be border checked anyway right now in theory.

Protocol 20 only has force provided the UK remains within the union. An international treaty on trade etc between Ireland and a third country, which the UK would be, is not compatible with the EU treaties let alone a customs union. On top of which any restrictions introduced by the EU would have to imposed at all Irish points of entry. Otherwise rebranding and reexport would mushroom.

Jim2007

Sam Russell wrote: »

Look at Switzerland for an example of what is possible.

Interesting since I actually live there!

So let's see:

- we have to accept the free movement of people
- we have to accept all EU market standards
- we have to accept EU court rulings on market issues
- we have to accept financial regulation
- we have to pay into the Structural Fund
- we have no seat at the decision table

About 18 months ago we voted to restrict the free movement of people and the government has been seeking to negotiate such an agreement. The reaction of the EU was to state that they are not interested in new bilateral talks and if we go ahead and breach the current agreement the only option is full membership!

Do you think that is what the UK wants ???