DART+ (DART Expansion)

Mod: can we stick to Dart Underground. The Eastern Bypass belongs on the M50 thread, or its own thread for a more detailed discussion so open a new one if that is what you want.

Some of EIB activity recently in the country...

http://www.eib.org/infocentre/press/releases/all/2016/2016-019-eib-green-light-for-n25-new-ross-bypass.htm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Id way prefer the eastern bypass. How long would would the outer ring motorway have to be? the numbers using it would be a fraction of what would use an eastern bypass. Many people could cut a serious distance off the commute if they could use the Eastern bypass rather than current m50 route...

It would also take traffic out of the current port tunnel, which sends traffic around a very long way if going south... It should be 3 lanes in each direction IMO...

It's definitely needed ASAP, and would be great.

I could be wrong, but i think the port tunnell was part of the original plan for it though?

I would assume it would be tolled.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Id way prefer the eastern bypass. How long would would the outer ring motorway have to be? the numbers using it would be a fraction of what would use an eastern bypass. Many people could cut a serious distance off the commute if they could use the Eastern bypass rather than current m50 route...

It would also take traffic out of the current port tunnel, which sends traffic around a very long way if going south... It should be 3 lanes in each direction IMO...

absolutly , it would be a huge improvement on M50 volumes, its arguably the thing that dublin commuters needs

Idbatterim

poppycock, its important but not that important and the phoenix parol tunnel can be used to implement some of its features

I would argue that airport rail access is more pressing and also consideration is going to have to be given to either an outer ring motorway or a form of eastern bypass

Id way prefer the eastern bypass. How long would would the outer ring motorway have to be? the numbers using it would be a fraction of what would use an eastern bypass. Many people could cut a serious distance off the commute if they could use the Eastern bypass rather than current m50 route...

It would also take traffic out of the current port tunnel, which sends traffic around a very long way if going south... It should be 3 lanes in each direction IMO...

plodder wrote: »

DU should be funded before any major new motorways, particularly in the East, where they're going to cost as much as it anyway,

dont agree, so lets leave it there

plodder

DU should be funded before any major new motorways, particularly in the East, where they're going to cost as much as it anyway,

BoatMad wrote: »

I dont believe it can, in so much that it has no room in the budget under the rules

It Can. The EIB would fund it...those rules are not as stringent on strategic capital investment that will certainly help economic growth, given Dublin, an ever-expanding and congested city is the engine of Ireland's economic growth.

As I said, these years are a golden opportunity to cheaply fund such projects.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Government could (perhaps) get the EU to make DU one of its funded projects.

I dont believe it can, in so much that it has no room in the budget under the rules

The Government could (perhaps) get the EU to make DU one of its funded projects.

But again, agree to disagree..

I agree DU is important , I disagree to the extent of its importance

lets say no more on this particular topic, what I mainly addressing was the Government has its hands tied at present and will do into the future on capital spending unless the economy grows a lot more.

MrMorooka wrote: »

Yep, and DU would feed perfectly into that. As it stands, adding more Northern line services for an Airport service into a congested Connolly would be a non-runner. With DU, you could make a DART line of Hazelhatch-Heuston-SSG-Airport/Malahide, alternating services(Howth being a shuttle). Or you could do a cheap non-electrified spur and run 29ks from the Airport to GCD, change at Pearse for DART to Hesuton etc.

That's the whole point of DU, it unlocks a lot of potential that is not being realised.

But again, agree to disagree..

Would running 2900 stock to GCD actually save much capital expenditure as there are enough Darts to provide the service and all that would be saved would be the 7 km of electrification? During peak hours, the 2900 could supplement the Darts, but 2900 would not be that suitable to carry folk with heavy suitcases. The 2900s could be used for serving the Airport to points north.

MrMorooka

BoatMad wrote: »

poppycock, its important but not that important and the phoenix parol tunnel can be used to implement some of its features

We'll have to agree to disagree.

BoatMad wrote: »

I would argue that airport rail access is more pressing

Yep, and DU would feed perfectly into that. As it stands, adding more Northern line services for an Airport service into a congested Connolly would be a non-runner. With DU, you could make a DART line of Hazelhatch-Heuston-SSG-Airport/Malahide, alternating services(Howth being a shuttle). Or you could do a cheap non-electrified spur and run 29ks from the Airport to GCD, change at Pearse for DART to Hesuton etc.

That's the whole point of DU, it unlocks a lot of potential that is not being realised.

But again, agree to disagree..

MrMorooka wrote: »

I disagree, it is/was the most important capital project in the country, it should have been prioritised over other projects.

I also refuse to believe that the EU could be opposed to it, it's a no-brainier and would be guranteed to cover it's costs easily.

You can " believe " what you like, but the capital budget is significantly restricted by the conditions of the growth and stability pact. The Gov has gone right to the wire with its allowances and in fact has tried a few fast ones with the EU, much to their annoyance.

The size of DU meant it cant be afforded at present . its also why thing alike the M20 got shelved. ( arguably an important road project)

it is/was the most important capital project in the country,

poppycock, its important but not that important and the phoenix parol tunnel can be used to implement some of its features

I would argue that airport rail access is more pressing and also consideration is going to have to be given to either an outer ring motorway or a form of eastern bypass

In the short term , projects like M11 bray upgrade are also very important

MrMorooka

BoatMad wrote: »

DU is not the centre of the universe as far as capital project go.

I disagree, it is/was the most important capital project in the country, it should have been prioritised over other projects.

I also refuse to believe that the EU could be opposed to it, it's a no-brainier and would be guranteed to cover it's costs easily.

Drives me mad!

then take the train !

Grandeeod wrote: »

This is well known, but Im really excited about BoatMad's response to this, because he/she sounds like a complete FG apologist, getting to the party a bit late.:D

No Government of any shade with the Eurozone capital limits that are imposed could build DU , without killing loads of other projects

DU is not the centre of the universe as far as capital project go.

cgcsb wrote: »

They could easly CPO the land and leave it for decades if need be. They've done it before in plenty of locations.

not according to the court case they couldin this case. The court was clear , the Government had to sanction the project and provide funding , or the railway order had to fall, it couldnt even be extended any further.

cgcsb wrote: »

We didn't need billions to carry out the CPOs and keep the project going, we didn't even need commitment to build it.

Long term borrowing has never been so cheap as it is now with interest rates.

On top of this, the EIB is asking for projects to help fund....these few years we are in now are a massive opportunity to efficiently invest in big ticket projects that will benefit the country for generations. Why don't people see and act on this?

Drives me mad!

Grandeeod

cgcsb wrote: »

We didn't need billions to carry out the CPOs and keep the project going, we didn't even need commitment to build it.

This is well known, but Im really excited about BoatMad's response to this, because he/she sounds like a complete FG apologist, getting to the party a bit late.:D

cgcsb

BoatMad wrote: »

They were being CPed under the provisions of the railway order, Otherwise the "Government " is just another commercial buyer and gets outbid frequently. The court case established that without a directive to proceed, the railway order had to fall and could not be extended. The Gov could not exact the CP without signing the process into action

They could easly CPO the land and leave it for decades if need be. They've done it before in plenty of locations.

cgcsb

BoatMad wrote: »

Money isn't there for all the specified projects, we are subject to quite onerous EU regulations on Capital borrowing limits from this year onwards.

doesnt matter who's in power

We didn't need billions to carry out the CPOs and keep the project going, we didn't even need commitment to build it.

salmocab

I wouldn't be too worried, by the time this is got round to the DU will be done using new technologies possibly teleporting or something more outlandish. There is no real appetite in govts to spend this much money on a project that won't be completed in time for the next election.

Grandeeod

BoatMad wrote: »

because it would have required the Gov to budget the whole DU project and there is no space for that at present under EU rules

And what makes you think that? The CPO aspect is a next step on a year on year basis.

Idbatterim wrote: »

had they started with the enabling works, I believe the cost was nothing, like 150 million, how long could they have stalled before the major money would have had to be spent?

I think the process is that that CIE which doesnt have CP powers is given them under the railway order. CIE would then have to be subvented monies to allow them to buy the required properties. That money was not forthcoming , because it would have required the Gov to budget the whole DU project and there is no space for that at present under EU rules

Idbatterim

I believe the government must exact the project under the railway order. They cannot simply do a " bit". this was all established in the court case. Basically the gov was told, enact the project or the Railway order must fall.( expire)

had they started with the enabling works, I believe the cost was nothing, like 150 million, how long could they have stalled before the major money would have had to be spent?

Idbatterim wrote: »

could the government not have simply CPO'd them and sat on them and not do work until they decide to proceed, I wont say until "finances allow" as they did, they simply didnt want to build it now...

I believe the government must exact the project under the railway order. They cannot simply do a " bit". this was all established in the court case. Basically the gov was told, enact the project or the Railway order must fall.( expire)

Idbatterim

could the government not have simply CPO'd them and sat on them and not do work until they decide to proceed, I wont say until "finances allow" as they did, they simply didnt want to build it now...

the quicker the places grinds to a halt the better, they will start "planning" when the city is totally gridlocked, with current car sales and economic, employment and population growth, it shouldnt take too long!