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Singer Kesha Rape claim

allibastor

Just listening to this on the radio this morning.

Not looking to get into he ins and out of it, but I would imagine your man Dr. Luke's career will be in tatters, even if innocent.

Bit mad of a thing to come out with if its not true. All the support Kesha receives would show that a lot agree of the naming, but is it not jumping the gun a bit.

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ghostdancer

razorblunt wrote: »

I've not been following it closely either, there's no actual case against for rape right?
She's accused him of this and stated she no longer wants to work with him?

Strange that Sony don't just let he go to save face and be seeing to do the right thing, what do they have to gain for it?

yes, that's correct.
even though years later she has no problem making the claims in public, she seemingly still hasn't gone to police to report any of the alleged incidents.

her lawyers claim that she reported it her therapist, although i'm sure conveniently that can't be questioned in court due to patient confidentiality. :rolleyes:

presumably Sony don't want to cut loose due to investing millions and then having her sign a more favourable deal to her, now that she's an established star, and some other record company making millions from Sony's original investment. Sony have already said that they won't require her to work with Dr. Luke in the future, but Kesha's camp claim that Sony wouldn't bother promoting her material in future, so the contract should just be dissolved...

allibastor

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean M? Are you suggesting that accusations are enough and that this automatically renders the accused guilty? If this was say a theft case, would you automatically believe the plaintiff in the absence of any proof? Obviously this kind of crime is far more nuanced, but the requirement for reasonable proof should be in place before calling for the hangman?

I agree with this. Dont get me wrong, it seems fishy to say the least.

I am just concerned as you said, no actual proof has been offered, one way or the other. But this chap has already been labelled as a rapist.
I know some jump on the gun of " oh well she said it, why you jumping to say she a liar" but at the same time, not saying she is lying is saying that he Might have done it.

I just thin a body of proof should be offered before it is allowed to go to twitter. If he is guilty he should have his name plastered EVERYWHERE, but if it turns out he is not guilty, his name will be muck now forever more.

ghostdancer

BattleCorp wrote: »

I'm genuinely curious about how the police deal with these types of claims.

Plenty of criminal trials for rape don't have much in the way of physical proof. I'm thinking specifically of historic rape claims.

How do you prove somebody raped you 15 years ago (or even one year ago) if you didn't go to the hospital at the time, gather DNA evidence etc.? Is it not pretty much one person's word against the other?

How do the police establish proof in these types of circumstances?

i don't know. i'd imagine it's better to actually report it now though rather than do nothing about it.

eviltwin

Speaking from personal experience sometimes it's easier just to say nothing. Sometimes you are too afraid to make a complaint. Sometimes you convince yourself that you were somehow responsible so you think everyone else will see it that way too. I don't know if Kesha is genuine or not but she doesn't automatically rated as a liar in my book because she didn't make this known previously. Whatever the story I think she should be released from her contract for both their benefits.

thattequilagirl

"When I was 17, someone stole my handbag with all my money in it." "That's terrible."

"When I was 17, I got beaten up after a night out." "That's awful!"

"When I was 17, my uncle raped me." "Why didn't you report it? Why are you still in contact with him? What proof have you got?"

smellslikeshoes

The producer wasn't convicted of a crime, if the judge had ruled in favour of Kesha it would have set a precedent that an accusation of abuse alone is enough to break a contract. Sony have said from the beginning that they are happy to let her work with a different producer.

everlast75

thattequilagirl wrote: »

"When I was 17, someone stole my handbag with all my money in it." "That's terrible." "Did you report it?"

"When I was 17, I got beaten up after a night out." "That's awful!""Why didn't you report it? Do you know who did it?"

"When I was 17, my uncle raped me." "Why didn't you report it? Why are you still in contact with him? What proof have you got?"

Corrected your post

Wibbs

eviltwin wrote: »

Speaking from personal experience sometimes it's easier just to say nothing. Sometimes you are too afraid to make a complaint. Sometimes you convince yourself that you were somehow responsible so you think everyone else will see it that way too.

Oh certainly I agree with that. Have seen it for myself. Sadly the practical problem is that years down the line unless there's proof or a confession then legally the crime "didn't happen".

I don't know if Kesha is genuine or not but she doesn't automatically rated as a liar in my book because she didn't make this known previously.

Ditto, though I am extremely suspicious of the timing, but most of all the previous sworn testimony that she made denying any wrongdoing by him. What ever is the truth she's not a reliable accuser. She either lied back then, or she's lying subsequently.

Whatever the story I think she should be released from her contract for both their benefits.

+1. She was what 18 when she signed it? Legal yeah but too young for that length of contract IMH. Plus if he were guilty you'd think he;d have avoided this kinda heat by just tearing up the contract?

ghostdancer

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

The producer wasn't convicted of a crime, if the judge had ruled in favour of Kesha it would have set a precedent that an accusation of abuse alone is enough to break a contract. Sony have said from the beginning that they are happy to let her work with a different producer.

which isn't financially beneficial to Kesha as it keeps her in the contract she originally signed, so she has rejected that solution :rolleyes:

thattequilagirl

everlast75 wrote: »

Corrected your post

The point was, people tend to automatically believe someone who claims to be a victim of any crime other than rape. Rape is the only crime where you start questioning the character of the victim. This happens even when they do report it. Even if there are no suspects yet. This despite the fact that research shows around 92% of rape accusations are true, which is higher than other crimes.

And I could go away and Google the sources of that for you as I have done in the past on Boards, but you know what - do it yourself.

NiallBoo

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

The producer wasn't convicted of a crime, if the judge had ruled in favour of Kesha it would have set a precedent that an accusation of abuse alone is enough to break a contract. Sony have said from the beginning that they are happy to let her work with a different producer.

An absence of a rape conviction isn't a brick walk here, the burden of proof is very different for those two things.

The judge could decide there was enough reason to break the contract, even without there being enough evidence for an actual rape conviction.

rawn

smellslikeshoes wrote:

The producer wasn't convicted of a crime, if the judge had ruled in favour of Kesha it would have set a precedent that an accusation of abuse alone is enough to break a contract. Sony have said from the beginning that they are happy to let her work with a different producer.

I heard they are refusing to promote her if she does choose to work with a different producer

razorblunt

rawn wrote: »

I heard they are refusing to promote her if she does choose to work with a different producer

As above, that's the argument her legal team are making.
I don't think Sony would be silly enough to not push her stuff to the moon given the focus that will be on it.

I'd imagine some other company will buy her contract out, would be the best for both parties, though as someone originally said, that would almost be admitting liability on Sony's part, so they may want to keep her albums themselves.

osarusan

It's an ugly one.

The idea that a producer would exploit a young starlet is hardly shocking (I remember a scandal about an Italian modelling company whose male managers would only give contracts/work to the models who would sleep with them), but to have this trial by media only isn't fair either.

ghostdancer

thattequilagirl wrote: »

The point was, people tend to automatically believe someone who claims to be a victim of any crime other than rape. Rape is the only crime where you start questioning the character of the victim. This happens even when they do report it. Even if there are no suspects yet. This despite the fact that research shows around 92% of rape accusations are true, which is higher than other crimes.

And I could go away and Google the sources of that for you as I have done in the past on Boards, but you know what - do it yourself.

complete nonsense.

smellslikeshoes

rawn wrote: »

I heard they are refusing to promote her if she does choose to work with a different producer

Kesha's side have claimed that there wouldn't be as much promotion if it was a different producer which is possible I suppose but no refusal or anything from Sony, it wouldn't make sense to offer another producer and then refuse to promote the work if the offer was accepted.

suicide_circus

Deleted User wrote: »

The most idiotic idiom ever uttered.

You might want to change the battery on your sarcasm detector

ghostdancer

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Kesha's side have claimed that there wouldn't be as much promotion if it was a different producer which is possible I suppose but no refusal or anything from Sony, it wouldn't make sense to offer another producer and then refuse to promote the work if the offer was accepted.

Sony are in the business of making money. if it's in their interests to promote an established star like Kesha, then they will. Kesha's claim that they wouldn't promote her doesn't really make sense as it makes little difference to Sony who produced the music as long as it sells.
she already has a number of songs produced by people other than Dr. Luke that Sony promoted.

BrokenArrows

Rape allegations should be kept 100% private until the person is found guilty.

If found innocent then the case should never be known to the public.

At the moment as soon as a man is accused of rape his life is over. Even if proven innocent no one will really believe it especially when they are a celebrity.

Personally I'd rather be accused of murder.

sbsquarepants

I don't really know enough about the details to comment but I did once hear Keisha tell Jonathan Ross that she once had sex with a ghost - take from that what you will.

tritium

thattequilagirl wrote: »

This despite the fact that research shows around 92% of rape accusations are true, which is higher than other crimes.

And I could go away and Google the sources of that for you as I have done in the past on Boards, but you know what - do it yourself.

Not trying to be pedantic here but (as i understand it) the 8% is actually (one) estimate of deliberately false allegation rates. That doesn't mean that in the other 92% of cases are true, rather that the person genuinely makes the allegation.

thattequilagirl

ghostdancer wrote: »

complete nonsense.

Reread this thread.

ghostdancer

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Reread this thread.

i have, what's your point?
you said rape is the only crime where the victim's character is questioned. this isn't remotely true. victims of multiple other crimes have their characters questioned for various reasons.

rab!dmonkey

thattequilagirl wrote: »

The point was, people tend to automatically believe someone who claims to be a victim of any crime other than rape. Rape is the only crime where you start questioning the character of the victim. This happens even when they do report it. Even if there are no suspects yet. This despite the fact that research shows around 92% of rape accusations are true, which is higher than other crimes.

And I could go away and Google the sources of that for you as I have done in the past on Boards, but you know what - do it yourself.

In your first two examples, the victim merely stated that they were a victim of a crime at some point in the past. In the third, they accused a third party of a very serious criminal offence. There's good reason why people might react differently.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

I don't know where to begin with that daftness.

That said the more you dig, the more odd it gets. A few years ago she swore in a court hearing that any contact they had was consensual, now the story changes and it happens to change when she wants out of a contract? The fact that it was also thrown out of court says a fair bit. Not conclusive either way but bloody fishy. In the old days she'd have taken a civil action against him, now it's easier and cheaper to use the High Court of Twitter. It's a win win for her either way.

it's not daft, my point is more, any girl making a living out of parading herself half naked on TV in the same way, Britney and Rihanna do, may not have the healthiest mind in terms of judgement etc.

Sure the latter above gets her head slapped in by a rapper, becomes the poster girl for violence against women and then tells girls, ah "sure were best friends again so we are". via selfies etc.... and these lads are absolute pieces of Sh*t too, we all know it. It's like the attention seeking girl on your road, cracker, goes out wit a scumbag for sheer Kudos!! she sold herself to that industry which churns out broken young men and women by the ton! and now she wants out, good luck, she's stuck there.

Normal rules don't apply when dealing with celebrity I'm afraid, they all want something in return. managers from singers, singers from managers, reality starts from Jo public.. the product the sell is bogus anyway

newport2

rab!dmonkey wrote: »

In your first two examples, the victim merely stated that they were a victim of a crime at some point in the past. In the third, they accused a third party of a very serious criminal offence. There's good reason why people might react differently.

Exactly, and in the third case they knew who the guilty party was.

Anyone who says they had a crime committed against them in the past and that they knew who was guilty of the crime is very likely to be asked "Why didn't you report it?"

That said, it is a far harder crime to report in the first place.

fullstop

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Rape allegations should be kept 100% private until the person is found guilty.

If found innocent then the case should never be known to the public.

I don't agree with the 2nd part of this. Anyone who falsely accuses someone of rape, which could destroy the life of the falsely accused, deserves to be named and shamed.

ghostdancer

fullstop wrote: »

I don't agree with the 2nd part of this. Anyone who falsely accuses someone of rape, which could destroy the life of the falsely accused, deserves to be named and shamed.

people generally aren't found innocent though, they're found not guilty, and that may be due to lack of evidence, which doesn't make the claim false.

fullstop

ghostdancer wrote: »

people generally aren't found innocent though, they're found not guilty, and that may be due to lack of evidence, which doesn't make the claim false.

Not always. There have been cases where the accusation has been found to be completely made up. Even the case the other day of the actress in London who accused a man in the train station of sexual assault. There was a video of him and all he did was walk past her and her identity was protected, while he had his name dragged through the mud. Why?

allibastor

In the case of an actual rape, I dont think it is fair to say how the person dresses or doesnt dress is a good indicator. If she wants to promote herself that way then fair enough, it doesnt give anyone the right to do anything she isnt happy with/consented to.

The only issue witht his is that the guy has been named on social media, he has had loads of starts who have "shown support" for Kesha, who have given over time and money etc. All that shows that they feel her point is valid.

It is the same as any other crime in this regard, you cant say "Mr X broke into my house and kiled my dog" without any actual proof, but you can say aloud that you think "MR. X raped me".

Both are serious sh1tty crimes, but both deserve to have proof and dignity on both sides with presumption of innocence on both sides until proven otherwise.