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Refusal

g00167015

Hey guys,

After over eight months, my super sent out a letter about my 204 application. He stated issues with my existing certificates and an issue with me requiring the 204 for fox control on my own sheep farm and the farms of my permissions as well as longer distance small vermin.

It was my understanding with firearms licencing law, that applications are assessed on their own merits, not on the merits of existing certificates. In my case, my competition clays O/U, an air rifle for ratting/pest birds inside farm buildings and around yards etc, plus a rimfire for closer range small vermin and economical rabbit control.

Apart from someone who wanted a competition or target rifle, it was my understanding that for sporting rifles below 6mm/0.24" that the ONLY lawful reason for requiring one licenced in Ireland would be vermin control and/or small game where seasons and the wildlife regulations allow. Does he expect people to put down "robbing the post office" in order to be deemed a valid reason ? ?

I informed him of these and of my displeasure at receiving such a clearly irrelevant letter after such a long time.

Anyways, fast forward a few weeks and today I get a refusal saying that the super believes I hadn't demonstrated reason for requiring the firearm. Given that I included a typed appendix of a few pages with detailed concise explanations of each and every relevant section of the FCA1 form, plus the fact he agreed with the same reasons in a face to face meeting, makes it a bit of a pain in the gahooneys to get a refusal on those grounds. The super is from the other end of the country and was only appointed last year to that rank.

Perhaps I should have held onto the bodies of dead livestock and poultry from fox predation on my land instead of having them disposed of. The smell of ammonia may have helped the reasoning lol lol

Is the appeals process worth the hassle if you go as a lay litigant? The expense of a solicitor would be prohibitive for me at the moment but at the same time there is no reason I should have to tick the box on future renewals saying I have been refused a certificate previously. As regards having four FACs, there is no issue as regards secure accomodation provisions etc.

Input, experience and advice per se will be very much appreciated

Cheers folks

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Cass

g00167015 wrote: »

It was my understanding with firearms licencing law, that applications are assessed on their own merits, not on the merits of existing certificates. In my case, my competition clays O/U, an air rifle for ratting/pest birds inside farm buildings and around yards etc, plus a rimfire for closer range small vermin and economical rabbit control.

Each application is porcessed on its own merits, however the total number of firearms held and the reasons you provided for each one is also taken into consideration. If it were not then people could have multiple firearms or similar calibers for the same purpose. for example a .24, .223, .22 hornet, 220 swift, etc. If your reason for anyone one of these is vermin control the question could be asked "why so many of similar caliber rifles do you need to control vermin?".

That is not to say its impossible but your reasons for the next rifle must be such that one of your existing firearms cannot fulfill the purpose.

Apart from someone who wanted a competition or target rifle, it was my understanding that for sporting rifles below 6mm/0.24" that the ONLY lawful reason for requiring one licenced in Ireland would be vermin control and/or small game where seasons and the wildlife regulations allow. Does he expect people to put down "robbing the post office" in order to be deemed a valid reason ? ?

I get your point, but no.

While all firearms require good reason, its caliber above a set of specifics that require extra reasoning. These are usually referred to as deer rifles. As such it would seem or make it so that smaller, vermin, caliber rifles are "easier" to get that a deer rifle.

Anyways, fast forward a few weeks and today I get a refusal saying that the super believes I hadn't demonstrated reason for requiring the firearm. Given that I included a typed appendix of a few pages with detailed concise explanations of each and every relevant section of the FCA1 form, plus the fact he agreed with the same reasons in a face to face meeting, makes it a bit of a pain in the gahooneys to get a refusal on those grounds. The super is from the other end of the country and was only appointed last year to that rank.

That is a bitch, in every sense of the word. Sorry to hear it.

Perhaps I should have held onto the bodies of dead livestock and poultry from fox predation on my land instead of having them disposed of. The smell of ammonia may have helped the reasoning lol lol

Would be a unique interview. Slap a few dead lambs on his desk.

Is the appeals process worth the hassle if you go as a lay litigant?

There are a number of factors you must consider:

Do you want the rifle that badly (not to say you shouldn't simply because it might be hard).
Are you prepared for the mental strain of bringing a court case
Can you afford the case (Not entirely sure of costs, but perhaps one of the lads that have been through this can enlighten you via PM)
Are you prepared to loose the case (if you win you get the license and possible the legal expenses. If you don't you get neither)

You might have to face this every three years if successful, but based on what you're saying it could be you may be facing this for each of your firearms if the Super is going to take this attitude for all firearm applications.

The expense of a solicitor would be prohibitive for me at the moment but at the same time there is no reason I should have to tick the box on future renewals saying I have been refused a certificate previously.

As above the cost is the major factor, and would be for most of us (myself included). However the sh*tty part of this is you have been refused and must now put it down on all future applications. Not 100% on this, but if you took the case and won, this refusal may be mooted.

It is a really crappy situation. You sound like you have not only ticked all the boxes but gone above and beyond. The Super, while making the wrong decision from your point of view, has acted legally. Your only option with the issuing of the refusal is court. There is no other options, unless the appeals process discussed when the FCP was revived is up and running.

You have 30 days from the date of the issuing of the refusal. So whatever decision you want to make may be done within that 30 day time period. It does not mean the case will be done in the 30 days, only that your appeal to the refusal is lodged within that 30 day period.

I'd talk to any NGB you are associated to, if any. If not i'd seek professional legal help from a solicitor experienced with firearms law or cases. You really don't want to know more about the process than your brief.

g00167015

Dilemma dot com.
<Mod snip to remove defamatory remarks>, the fact that having to tick the box saying I've been refused previously is going to give even more possibilities of delays in future renewals is complete s##te.

That's really annoying, but I guess I won't be the only one in the country in that situation. How come he took eight months play acting to come to that decision?

I may end up writing to him or more likely his CS to have the application withdrawn in its entirity and to receive all my papers back and to have my pulse record corrected accordingly.

Grizzly 45

FWIW,I wouldnt sweat this have you been refused a firearms cert bit too much.It doesnt mean you are an arch criminal[why would you be applying for a gun liscense in that case anyway?] or a person of disrepute.It is just an AGS marker to say there may have been a problem,it doesnt ask you why on your application.It could have been that like in your case it was a gun thought unsuit able by the Super. With the amount of cases I've gone thru on restricted firearms,I dont have enough room to fit all the dates I was refused on the form.
So dont throw the towel in just yet.

As for going to court.Yes it is a " Ultima ratio" any and all the time.But it is your only option.Thing is,from what you described you do have a good case in the fact the Super dragged thi out by the balls with no good reason. However",a man who repersents himself in court has a fool for a client"Coined no doubt by somone in the legal profession,but none the less true.Depending on what kind of a judge you get ,you might get somone who tells you to go away and get a solicitor and stop wasting court time,or you might get one who will bend over backwards[as they must as you are the layman in court] to assist you,thats why they try and discourage it as much as possible by any means.It is time consuming and too easy for you to claim a mis trial because you missed this or werent told XYZ.
Also, alot of this is solved not in the court but by showdowns between the Super and your lawyer outside the court room.Its a massive poker game being played by your solicitor ,or in my and a few other lads cases ,a junior counsel! On your behalf.Best result is your counsel calls you and tells you he has convinced the Super to issue the liscense.Bad is you are going to be having a long day in the court room listening to all sorts of crime and skullduggery before your case is called.Worse is you trying to negoiate as the plantif with the Super with no go between who knows their stuff legalwise.

Best advice in this sort of case.Lawyer up! Yes it is expensive,but it is worth it if you do go down that road.If this is the case,try and do a deal with the lawyer that if he gets this finished without either party having to go into a court room he charges half his fees,rather than the full wack for a mornings work.

g00167015

I will ask that it is withdrawn in its entirity I think. There should not be an issue with this.

<MOD SNIP> like the one we have been blighted with, I find particularly disgusting and offensive, so I'd rather not having to sit across from him in a courtroom, or any other type of room for that matter.

Cass

g00167015 wrote: »

I may end up writing to him or more likely his CS to have the application withdrawn in its entirity and to receive all my papers back and to have my pulse record corrected accordingly.

g00167015 wrote: »

I will ask that it is withdrawn in its entirity I think. There should not be an issue with this..

Cannot be done.

Once a decision is made its binding. To the extent that your refusal stands and asking for your paperwork back will not reverse this. I also doubt they will return the paperwork as it'll be filed under your name as a refusal much like a successful application will be filed as granted.

BattleCorp

g00167015 wrote: »

I will ask that it is withdrawn in its entirity I think. There should not be an issue with this.

<MOD SNIP> like the one we have been blighted with, I find particularly disgusting and offensive, so I'd rather not having to sit across from him in a courtroom, or any other type of room for that matter.

I'm no expert but how can you withdraw your application when it has been decided upon?

Surely the refusal will remain on your record no matterwhat you do?

Deaf git

Talk to a solicitor with a track record in firearms cases. It may not cost you as much as you think and afaik it's the only way to overturn and remove the refusal from your records.

Grizzly 45

BTW you can request under the freedom of information act.ALL revelant paperwork of the Supers refusal of your liscense.Including phone transcripts,emails ,internal memos etc.

paul303

Thanks to all for the good advice give here, afraid I'm in the same boat. Refused for a unrestricted, only firearm I've got. Anyone know of a savvy solicitor in the midlands area please PM me.
Thanks,
Paul303

Cass

What ever became of this, paul303? Any details on the gun, reason for refusal, etc.

paul303

Hi Cass,
Thanks for asking. After many phone calls I got to meet the Super. He asked me to sit down and told me flat he was not giving it back, before my backside even hit the chair! So much for a chance to make a case to an open mind. I have applied to the district court for an appeal so we will see how that goes. Hope His/Her Honor lets me make a case. Its a 303 for Deer. The better half is not a fan as in a VERBAL argument, and very hard pressed, I did say something very stupid and regrettable. I know the inference is that I am a complete gurrier however I'm not. I am a decent law abiding citizen and have been for 48 years. I will let ye know how it goes.
P

paul303

After much blah blah, back in business!

Deaf git

Granted?

paul303

Yes indeed, much pleased !