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Why do you hate Irish?

LeinsterDub

Given the other thread it was surprising to the level of hatred for Irish. Having been over in Wales recently the English speakers would generally be apathetic to Welsh. No one seemed to hate it. Why do people hate a language so much?

Cen faith mar is fuair a lán daoine Gaeilge?

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Del.Monte

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

There are definitely distinct camps on this subject:

1) people who are embarrassed by Irish and see it as useless the Anti-Irish Zealot.

2) people who are proud of their language and cannot understand why others do not speak it fluently.

3) people like myself ( the silent majority) who liked Irish is proud of it but lost it through lack of use. Maybe this is the category that should try and speak Irish every day and avoid the extremists on both sides?

Where on earth do you come up with this from? Anything to back it up or is it just wishful thinking.

Shep_Dog

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

3) people like myself ( the silent majority) who liked Irish is proud of it but lost it through lack of use. Maybe this is the category that should try and speak Irish every day and avoid the extremists on both sides?

4)People, who neither like nor dislike Irish and who don't mind if others speak Irish as long as they're not forced to do so themselves. These people are proud to be Irish just as they are and don't see why they should have to learn Irish to be considered 'proper' Irish. (the majority)

Shep_Dog

LordSutch wrote: »

A more flexible approach was suggested >>>
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/fine-gaels-proposal-to-make-the-irish-language-optional-at-school-is-rejected-see-poll-116221609-237369721.html
But the idea wasn't even allowed to get off the ground

Sad to see the Irish lobby exploit young women to make their case.

gormdubhgorm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Where on earth do you come up with this from? Anything to back it up or is it just wishful thinking.

Look up the last census details. On the amount of Irish spoken in the home they have it in different categories.

recipio

English is our first language. I resent the mandarins who impose Luas, Tacsai and Iarnrod Eireann on us because they bought into DeValera's nationalist agenda. Time for a bit more honesty in this country.

gormdubhgorm

recipio wrote: »

English is our first language. I resent the mandarins who impose Luas, Tacsai and Iarnrod Eireann on us because they bought into DeValera's nationalist agenda. Time for a bit more honesty in this country.

In fairness is tacsai and luas that hard to say? Or are you one of these people who deliberately say "tg four" because you don't want to be associated with one word of the language?
Believe it or not De Valera was an Anglophile he went to black rock college and his favourite sport was rugby! He only went to Irish late in life because he fancied his teacher!

blue5000

Peig sayers:mad:

Paramite Pie

The_Captain wrote: »

Conchobhair
Meadhbh
Samhain
Phríomhfheidhmeannaigh
Comhaltas

In most of those it's only the 'h' that's over the top.

In Meadhbh the 'ea' sound doesn't make quite the same 'ae' sound in English which automatically ends in a 'y' sound. It's similar but not the same, it's actually almost but not quite 2 syllables. One and a half syllables maybe.

The letter 'dh' makes a 'y' sound, so 'Meadh' sounds like 'May'. And then to end it we need the 'bh' letter (yes letter, singular not 'combination' of letters).

The Romans invented the 'h' thing but monks had limited parchment-so they squeezed the 'h' (or sometimes other vowels) over the letters to save space, eventually becoming the various accents we see across Europe.:)

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I also notice some people who speak perfectly normal when speaking English but on a very thick accent when speaking Irish which makes it more difficult to understand.

When I speak French I speak in a French accent to be understood. Irish has very nuance pronunciation that I can't quite grasp myself but even in English i have a heavier accent when talking to other country people vs urban people. If pronounced properly the musicality of the vowels offsets the guttural element of the language.

The standard vowels are like half-tones and the fáda-vowels are like full tones. Combination vowels can represent a shift in inflection (or tone if you will). I'm only getting this now. Great schooling here.:rolleyes:

Learners tend to sound either very guttural (if they can't get the vowels) or more simple (even very childlike) if they speak in their Hiberno-Irish accent. Some gaeilgoirs are worse than the french, they won't speak Irish back to you if you can't pronounce it!! Some genuinely may not even understand.

gormdubhgorm

Paramite Pie wrote: »

In most of those it's only the 'h' that's over the top.

In Meadhbh the 'ea' sound doesn't make quite the same 'ae' sound in English which automatically ends in a 'y' sound. It's similar but not the same, it's actually almost but not quite 2 syllables. One and a half syllables maybe.

The letter 'dh' makes a 'y' sound, so 'Meadh' sounds like 'May'. And then to end it we need the 'bh' letter (yes letter, singular not 'combination' of letters).

The Romans invented the 'h' thing but monks had limited parchment-so they squeezed the 'h' (or sometimes other vowels) over the letters to save space, eventually becoming the various accents we see across Europe.:)

When I speak French I speak in a French accent to be understood. Irish has very nuance pronunciation that I can't quite grasp myself but even in English i have a heavier accent when talking to other country people vs urban people. If pronounced properly the musicality of the vowels offsets the guttural element of the language.

The standard vowels are like half-tones and the full-vowels are like full tones. Combination vowels can represent a shift in inflection (or tone if you will). I'm only getting this now. Great schooling here.:rolleyes:

Learners tend to sound either very guttural (if they can't get the vowels) or more simple (even very childlike) if they speak in their Hiberno-Irish accent. Some gaeilgoirs are worse than the french, they won't speak Irish back to you if you can't pronounce it!! Some genuinely may not even understand.

I believe they call it "blas" when you get the auld accent right.

kingchess

conchobhair is the name of a friend and he would pronounce it with a "r" in the first syllable- sounds like cru hoore,

recipio

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In fairness is tacsai and luas that hard to say? Or are you one of these people who deliberately say "tg four" because you don't want to be associated with one word of the language?
Believe it or not De Valera was an Anglophile he went to black rock college and his favourite sport was rugby! He only went to Irish late in life because he fancied his teacher!

Oh please.............this is more about an arrogant mindset that Dev fostered including compulsory Irish for the Leaving cert introduced in 1934.
As for ridiculous Irish names I suppose our tourists can be kept guessing at terms like MNA :eek:

kingchess

recipio wrote: »

Oh please.............this is more about an arrogant mindset that Dev fostered including compulsory Irish for the Leaving cert introduced in 1934.
As for ridiculous Irish names I suppose our tourists can be kept guessing at terms like MNA :eek:

MY pals Dimitre and zsófi agree it is hard to pronounce Irish names.:o

Del.Monte

kingchess wrote: »

MY pals Dimitre and zsófi agree it is hard to pronounce Irish names.:o

Join the club, I'm living here more than 50 years and I still can't get my tongue around names like Seán and Saoirse.

Paramite Pie

recipio wrote: »

English is our first language. I resent the mandarins who impose Luas, Tacsai and Iarnrod Eireann on us because they bought into DeValera's nationalist agenda. Time for a bit more honesty in this country.

What's wrong with Luas? It's easy to pronounce. The other terms aren't that difficult, and are relatively phonetic.. Tacsaí seems silly but I don't mind silly.

I was stayin at a hostel in dublin for many weeks during the 'accomodation crisis' last september and no tourists seemed to be confused by these terms. I had people who had been in Ireland for like two days asking for directions to Bus Aras and not the Bus Station. I used to cringe at the placenames on the Dart -- I must've picked up more place names on that train than in school. I've come to enjoy them, especially having been abroad and come home.

Heck I even missed the 'stand clear, luggage door operating' guy who sounds like he exhales dust every time he speaks.:pac:

riclad

i dont see anything moral about speaking irish, every day.
if i,m a drug dealer but speak irish every day ,does that make it ok to sell drugs
or rob a bank.
its ok, im fluent in irish , i must be a good person.

I,ts a dead language,in that 95 per cent of people do not speak it in everyday life .
The sooner we realise this and work out is it a good thing to force every student to
learn it for 5 years plus the better.
WE need to grow up about this ,
as in the government eventually grew up ,and brought in divorce, gay marriage etc
WE have empty wards, because of a shortage of nurses being employed
Is it smart to spend 100 ,s of millions of euros on the irish language .
We need to start building more social housing.
This country has limited resources .
We should a least spend the money we have wisely.

Dughorm

Can't believe people have an issue with the name Luas? I mean really!

Will they be filing a language discrimination complaint to the police constabulary? :pac:

Dughorm

riclad wrote: »

i dont see anything moral about speaking irish, every day. if i,m a drug dealer but speak irish every day ,does that make it ok to sell drugs or rob a bank. its ok, im fluent in irish , i must be a good person.

Yes that's right

Ferris_Bueller

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Quite frankly if you can't understand a language because of an accent then you're not fluent.

I agree, but that's why I said I find it difficult to understand them.

Paramite Pie wrote: »

When I speak French I speak in a French accent to be understood. Irish has very nuance pronunciation that I can't quite grasp myself but even in English i have a heavier accent when talking to other country people vs urban people. If pronounced properly the musicality of the vowels offsets the guttural element of the language.

The standard vowels are like half-tones and the fáda-vowels are like full tones. Combination vowels can represent a shift in inflection (or tone if you will). I'm only getting this now. Great schooling here.:rolleyes:

Learners tend to sound either very guttural (if they can't get the vowels) or more simple (even very childlike) if they speak in their Hiberno-Irish accent. Some gaeilgoirs are worse than the french, they won't speak Irish back to you if you can't pronounce it!! Some genuinely may not even understand.

Yeah you are right in what you are saying, it usually is about the "blas" as someone else pointed out and I'm sure if two people from the heart of Kerry were to speak to each other like that they could understand each other perfectly. However I don't think it's very helpful to people who aren't very good at Irish or who are trying to pick it up, it makes it more difficult to understand for them when really we should be trying to encourage them to use it.

AnLonDubh

The_Captain wrote: »

Conchobhair
Meadhbh
Samhain
Phríomhfheidhmeannaigh
Comhaltas

None of those have extraneous letters, except Conchobhair which is a Classical Irish spelling. The modern spelling is Crothúir. What do you think the extraneous letters are?

gormdubhgorm

recipio wrote: »

Oh please.............this is more about an arrogant mindset that Dev fostered including compulsory Irish for the Leaving cert introduced in 1934.
As for ridiculous Irish names I suppose our tourists can be kept guessing at terms like MNA :eek:

So have you ever went on holidays abroad where you could not understand the language?
Did you:
1) hold it until you got back home?
2) pee in the bushes?
3) look at the picture underneath the writing?
4) simply ask someone what it means?

Or maybe you never travel abroad to such places and are more like this characature of backward Ireland you espouse then you realise?

gormdubhgorm

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

I agree, but that's why I said I find it difficult to understand them.

Yeah you are right in what you are saying, it usually is about the "blas" as someone else pointed out and I'm sure if two people from the heart of Kerry were to speak to each other like that they could understand each other perfectly. However I don't think it's very helpful to people who aren't very good at Irish or who are trying to pick it up, it makes it more difficult to understand for them when really we should be trying to encourage them to use it.

Agreed you get sneered at by some if you use "school Irish". But in fairness most are delighted if you make some sort of effort at speaking it. I remember when I heard claregalway was a Gaeltacht, I ordered my pint in Irish to see if it tasted the same.

It did and it was good craic.

Shep_Dog

Dughorm wrote: »

Can't believe people have an issue with the name Luas? I mean really!
Will they be filing a language discrimination complaint to the police constabulary? :pac:

There'd be no point in reporting this to the language police, whose office is in Spiddal. The Official Languages Act only recognises discrimination if English is used instead of Irish or if English lettering on public signs is more prominant than Irish. It's even OK to omit English completely. This is part of the Conradh strategy to gradually replace English with Irish as our common language.

Conradh na Gaeilge wants all new government bodies to be named in Irish only.

LeeLooLee

The way it's taught kills it for a lot of people. What kid or teenager wants to read Peig or any other boring, miserable book? Look at the difference between Irish and Catalan - walk around Barcelona and everyone is speaking it, because it's taught and used as a living language and it's seen as being cool and useful. All Catalan speakers are also fluent in Spanish but they choose to speak Catalan. It wasn't until I joined the Irish society at college and went to the pub and spoke Irish that I felt any joy from using it. It's as if Irish teachers and schools just want to put everyone off it as quickly as they can.

recipio

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So have you ever went on holidays abroad where you could not understand the language?
Did you:
1) hold it until you got back home?
2) pee in the bushes?
3) look at the picture underneath the writing?
4) simply ask someone what it means?

Or maybe you never travel abroad to such places and are more like this characature of backward Ireland you espouse then you realise?

Bord Failte say that after pricing, poor signage is the second most common complaint by tourists who have taken a holiday here.
Putting single signs in Irish is simply arrogance.

Sleepy

For many of us, it's not "the way it's taught", it's the very fact that it's compulsory. I wouldn't have had any more interest in Irish had I been taught so well I ended up fluent. It's a skill I see no value in (though I suppose those suckling from the teat of government spending on Irish might disagree - oblivious, or even proud of, the parasitic nature of that employment).

Sure, I was able to drop to pass and focus on my other 6 subjects in my Leaving Cert, to play tetris in Irish class and rely on what I'd picked up in primary school to get me through the exam but it was a pretty poor use of my time, meant I had no room for error in my other six subjects (i.e. my CSO points could only come from those six, rather than my best of seven subjects) and was a total waste of the state resources (teacher's salary) when I could have spent instead 8 years of primary school and five years of secondary, or 1,651 hours* learning something that might benefit me in life or that even held some interest to me.

When you consider that most undergraduate degrees are delivered over three years with 24 teaching weeks with timetables of 20 hours or so of lectures, or 1,440 hours# that's a fairly shocking amount of time to spend on a subject that many find of little or no value.

Sure, you might say that primary / secondary and third level teaching hours can't be compared and you'd be right but I just thought it a good indication of what can be achieved in that level of hours. It's not quite the oft-touted 10,000 hours practice to master a skill but it's far from an insignificant amount of time and one that really should be used more effectively.

* 8 years of 183 days Primary with Irish taking 3.5 hrs per week of the primary school curriculum + 5 years of 167 days secondary schooling studying Irish for 45 minutes 5 times a week

3.5 hours per week primary taken from: https://www.into.ie/ROI/InformationforMedia/InformationforJournalists/TimeSpentonEachSubject.pdf

Secondary hours based on my own experience as I couldn't find "hours per subject" figures for secondary, YMMV

# Teaching weeks per year taken from http://www.tcd.ie/calendar/1415-2/academic-year-structure-2014-14/, hours an average based on my own experience of a Commerce Degree and friends experiences of IT degrees. Yes, you could effectively double those hours for an engineering or medical degree but you could almost half them for most years of Commerce or Arts.

Wibbs

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Yeah you are right in what you are saying, it usually is about the "blas" as someone else pointed out and I'm sure if two people from the heart of Kerry were to speak to each other like that they could understand each other perfectly. However I don't think it's very helpful to people who aren't very good at Irish or who are trying to pick it up, it makes it more difficult to understand for them when really we should be trying to encourage them to use it.

yet even if they do use it they'll likely always sound like a "foreigner" in their own bloody country, just because they happened not to be born in the arse end of a Gaeltacht? Eh... No.

granturismo

Stheno wrote: »

One word - Peig

Second, third and fourth word - An Modh Coinníollach

OldNotWIse

Don't hate it but resent all the wasted time when it was forced upon me in school when I could have been learning another European language.

How can one score highly in French and Spanish at higher level after 4 years study, and pass Irish at ordinary level after 14 years?

If you want to keep it alive it should be optional.

Also dislike the waste of money and resources being used to translate official docs into Irish to appease a smattering of the population when there are so many other things our money could be spent on.

Bits_n_Bobs

I'd be more or less ambivalent about it apart from the fundamentalist gaelgoree who manage to be more self-righteous and entitled than most religionist extremists...

LordSutch

It is frightening when you add up all the hours we "did Irish" in school, for such little return!

Successive generations of us have been made "to do Irish" in school, (since the 1920s/30s) presumably with the intention of making us into an Irish speaking country? And yet here we are in the 21st century, still in the process of trying to decide how this adoption of Irish should be done

Personally I think the state should accept that Ireland is an English speaking country, and that English is our 1st language. Yes Irish should remain a protected language, and it should be encouraged amongst the youth (but not as a compulsory subject) for therein lies the reason for the stigma so many Irish people against the language.......

Remove it as a compulsory subject after Inter Cert.