Mary63 wrote: » We most certainly are not a secular country zaph,if we were atheist children wouldn't have a problem getting into Catholic schools. We are as far from secular as we can get,we still hold all our important ceremonies in church,baptisms,communions,confirmations,weddings and funerals.Most of us are buried in consecrated church grounds.We are born in hospitals run along religious ethos grounds and we die in the same hospitals and most of us and our relatives want the last rites performed on us before we die.Traditions die hard and parents even though they mightn't go to church regularly still want traditions handed on to their children and the school is where they expect these traditions to be taught.
Mary63 wrote: » The Equality campaign was run as a social media campaign rainy day and it was quite astonishing that forty per cent of the electorate voted no not that sixty per cent voted yes.The YES side had the Government behind them,the entire media outlets,the unions,even the ex President of Ireland and still almost half the electorate said no.
Deleted User wrote: » Don't be silly. Of course it's correct. There are a million kids in Irish schools, and something like 2% of those are in fee schools. Forcing parents who don't have the money to pay for Christian ethos schools when there are already Christian ethos schools in the country simply isn't an option.
Mary63 wrote: » ..Athiests,people associate that ideology with backwardness and veganism and they don't want their children exposed to what they perceive as cults...
Mary63 wrote: » ..we are a catholic country,we need to look to Spain and portugal and see how their education system works,they are catholic countries too.
According to a study by the Spanish Centre for Sociological Research in 2015 about 68% of Spaniards self-identify as Catholic Christians, 3.8% as followers of other faiths (including Islam, Protestant Christianity and Buddhism etc.), and about 25% identify as atheists or non-believers. Most Spaniards do not participate regularly in religious worship. This same study shows that of the Spaniards who identify themselves as religious, 61% barely ever goes to mass, 14% go to mass few times a year, 10% few times per month and 14% every Sunday or multiple times per week. Although a majority of Spaniards are Catholics, most, especially those of the young generation, ignore the Church's conservative moral doctrines.
RainyDay wrote: » International comparisons are difficult, but I'm a bit bemused as to why you reject Irish experiences in a debate on Irish education.
RainyDay wrote: » Please do share details of the UK rankings and ratings that show the religious schools as being streets ahead. It would be interesting to see more detail on these.
CelticRambler wrote: » As a parent, the one word I most definitely do not want to hear is equality - you've got to persuade me that a secular school will give my children an exceptional advantage over everyone else.
Samaris wrote: » There will always be better and worse schools. Barring that the vast majority of schools are Catholic ethos, the only real advantage of a specifically Catholic-ethos school is that a parent doesn't need to indoctrinate their child into the Catholic religion; the school will take care of it.
Although they might occasionally have to explain to their sprog that their teacher is a) correct and Catholic in that their parents are going to hell for not going to Mass or b) that it's rubbish.
Samaris wrote: » There will always be better and worse schools. Barring that the vast majority of schools are Catholic ethos, the only real advantage of a specifically Catholic-ethos school is that a parent doesn't need to indoctrinate their child into the Catholic religion; the school will take care of it. Although they might occasionally have to explain to their sprog that their teacher is a) correct and Catholic in that their parents are going to hell for not going to Mass or b) that it's rubbish.
silverharp wrote: » I'd imagine most parents these days dont see schools as catholic "safe spaces" however if there is a subtext that catholic school means no Muslims or African then its going to be a tougher sell.
CelticRambler wrote: » Because the question posed in the OP was can we discuss how equality in education (ie secular schooling) can be achieved, without going off on the side track of whether it should happen?I think it's safe to assume that Looksee intends this secular schooling to be of equal quality and desireablility for parents and their children. I think it's also reasonable to assume that the "need" to have secular schooling arises from a percieved problem with the current system. This means that whatever is proposed must be different to what's currently available - a range of options that have evolved over many decades, or indeed many centuries if you include the determination of the native Irish Catholic population to educate their children in Hedge Schools despite it being illegal. So regardless of how secular or catholic you might describe Ireland in 2016, you cannot forecast how non-denominational schools by citing examples from the society you're trying to change. The best you can do is look at other countries with a broadly similar heritage who have already implemented something close to what you hope to achieve.
CelticRambler wrote: » No can do! That's the kind of information gathered and interpreted during twenty years of parenthood in an effort to get the best education for my children. FWIW, that also included taking my children out of school entirely for about six months (better no school than the wrong one!) I could be the "poster parent" for one of these new schools - I'm a practising Catholic, but that's irrelevant when it comes to the choice of school. I had/have one child in a secular school, two in RC, one in CoI.
One eyed Jack wrote: » If you're calling for support for secular education because you feel that children ought to be protected from stuff that's made up, wouldn't it be a good idea to present adults with the facts and let them make those decisions for themselves, and avoid making stuff up to support your position? The facts should be able to stand on their own merit if you truly believe in the benefits of your cause you're trying to promote. The benefits should be obvious, rather than going through the religious curriculum with a fine tooth comb to pick out bits and engage in PR spin.
CelticRambler wrote: » Schools are places of education: if you keep banging on about religion, I'll think you're just another holy-joe-atheist and couldn't give a damn about making sure my child gets an exceptional education. That's not going to advance the development of non-denominational schools, because parents on the whole are not willing to sacrifice their children's opportunities for the sake of quasi-religious nutters.
Samaris wrote: » My previous posts have given a much wider explanation of what I'm referring to, but that was a throwaway comment in one specific thread. I didn't "make it up" either, I spoke from my own experience; I have no idea what the official position is on not traumatising children these days. The structure of the sentence I thought made it clear enough that it was a possible, not a definate.
Yes, they are, which is something I've banged on about before. Now, firstly, I don't think that articles of faith should be taught as a level of fact onside with history, maths and the rest of it. Faith is not fact; in fact, the very basis of faith is a lack of knowledge about the reality of the situation. History, maths, geography, even World Cultures and CSPE are factual.
Secondly, in the 2012 OECD report, Ireland spent 10% of teaching time on religious education, and a further survey by the Irish National Teacher’s Organisation in 2013 found that 70 per cent of schools were spending more than that allocated time per week on religion. Besides that, it goes up again in Communion year, which I think is Second Class now (it was First Class when I was in school). We spend 12% of teaching time on religion, much lower than OECD average, and only 4% of time on science, which is also quite a bit lower than average (6%). I have no idea what the exceptional educational advantage of that is.
And thirdly, there is just no necessity to consider it part of mainstream education. Secular education would be a baseline that everyone, Christians, Muslims, Jewish, Buddhists, Sikhs, atheists and the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster could get together on. Faith formation is and should be separate to that, in my view. It should be a personal journey for a person, facilitated by family and the local church. Or colander, if one prefers.
One eyed Jack wrote: » This I could listen to all day. Now you're talking facts, and emphasising that there are other subjects could be focused on in place of religion - science, art, drama, music, languages, PE, etc.
Samaris wrote: » Another point which is getting less relevance nowadays, but single-sex schooling. We have a higher proportion of single-sex schools than any European country and it's increasingly thought that single-sex schooling benefits are a bit of a canard. It is becoming less relevant as boys and girls schools merge, albeit reluctantly. If nothing else, it ensures that boys and girls get to learn each other's subjects. In my own experience in a single-sex girls' secondary school, the genderisation of subjects was ridiculous. The most glorious difference being girls learned French, boys learned German.
Mary63 wrote: » http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teacher-to-be-compensated-over-comments-on-gay-son-1.2484823 And you think the COI brethren are going to hand over any of their schools to the State. No real progress can be made until the whole national school system in its entirety can be dismantled so there is no point in having Catholics schools only in your sights.
lazygal wrote: » Who said only Catholic schools were part of the equation?
One eyed Jack wrote: » I'd leave any references to faith and identity politics outside the school.
Mary63 wrote: » Every single thing I have read on this topic seems to be exclusively about targeting Catholic schools,were the COI schools asked for their opinions on divestment as a matter of interest. I am very surprised that the woman who took the case got the job in the first place in the COI school,there mustn't have been anyone from the"right"religion interested.The COI people look after their own.
Mary63 wrote: » If you can't find a club of your own lazy gal you can't expect to barge into our clubs when you haven't attended or paid any joining up fee,you should have to bide your time and set up your own little club and draw up your own rules.
silverharp wrote: » its an interesting one, while there ought to be a choice (and my kids will spend their school time in a mixed school) the counter case is that boys and girls develop at different speeds so intellectually girls speed ahead from 11 to 16ish and boys catch up after so the boys could feel out performed in certain subjects and lose interest. Also in a very feminised education system boys can be marked down subconsciously by teachers or the teachers expect the boys to behave like girls when they do tend to express themselves differently. Also in subjects like English its going to be easier to tailor the material to appeal to boys,whether this happens in practice or not I dont know.
Bristolscale7 wrote: » However, with a FF or FG education minister you can forget all of the above.
Mary63 wrote: » http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/teacher-to-be-compensated-over-comments-on-gay-son-1.2484823 And you think the COI brethren are going to hand over any of their schools to the State.
Mary63 wrote: » No real progress can be made until the whole national school system in its entirety can be dismantled so there is no point in having Catholics schools only in your sights.
xband wrote: » To be honest, that's really not a very realistic way of approaching life. In the workplace, in university and in all other aspects of life, both genders work together. It's absolutely insane that we have arguments for separating boys and girls in school Similar arguments were used in the 19th century and early 20th century as reasons why women shouldn't be admitted to university, shouldn't be allowed to hold professorships, shouldn't be doctors, etc etc. You can find studies to prove pretty much anything, if you're looking for a gender-biased result. That's the unfortunate reality of it. Of course boys and girls will learn differently if the school system is largely a victorian construct that treats them differently and where primary and secondary teachers have some kind of cultural notions about differences between the sexes. Boys and girls work together in schools all over the world, they're the absolute norm in most developed countries and most non-theocracies and the academic performance of both genders seems to be rather good. Also, when you think about it, the other biasing factor in Ireland and Britain in research is that single sex schools tend to be somewhat more academically focused 'traditional grammar schools' where as mixed schools tended to be more modern comprehensive / community schools. The performance of the overall school will be slightly lower because there's a broader intake, that doesn't mean that the people who are capable of performing well aren't. It's just that you've a more diverse range of abilities than you might have in a more selective school. So, you're really looking at dilution of statistics rather than poor performance. Also, what is the purpose of education? To measure a narrow range of skills obsessively or to provide students with a grounding in life and ability to move on to third level or other routes to work? The biggest issue in Ireland is that you *still* have plenty of incidences where girls schools are missing science subjects due to historical cultural bias. I know girls who have had to go down the road to the boys' school to do physics and that has put plenty off.
silverharp wrote: » kids arent adults, you lost me
xband wrote: » Too many big words?
xband wrote: » I just don't know why I bothered posting. Anyway, best of luck. Not really interested anymore. Too many entrenched views on religious and single sex. It's like arguing with brick walls. Emigration to a modern country (not living in 1816) seems like best option if you've kids and don't want them in sexist, religious, sectarian schools.
