Stheno wrote: » Ah now, what I was going to say wasn't that bad. We used call it a BA in bull****
flouncer wrote: » Lovely.
Hagz wrote: » Where does he even fit into Leinster? Does Fitzy move out to the wing again? I think he's been brilliant at 12. No way does he come in at 13. That would just be outrageous. The move just wouldn't be good for Irish rugby.
The Rape of Lucretia wrote: Why bring in Bambam when R. Henshaw is the likely move ?
pickarooney wrote: » What's the story with the Byrne twins? I haven't heard anything about them in a while.
The Rape of Lucretia wrote: » It pains me to say it, but I dont think I have heard anything from him yet to suggest he is any more of a commentator than the rest of us.
.ak wrote: » Fitz's best position is 11, but I think he's an excellent 12 also. With mads and teo leaving then henshaw would most certainly be joining as a centre
The Rape of Lucretia wrote: » It may have something of the old amateur reward feeling to it, but is it really the way to pick a team ? Surely, if the investment is being put into the academy players, then giving them game time is the way to develop them best. Not jumping them for someone who may be playing well at a lower level, and is only a shortterm stopgap anyway. If they are really good enough, then they shouldnt be in the AIL. Injury plagues or exceptional circumstances excepted.
The Rape of Lucretia wrote: » It may have something of the old amateur reward feeling to it, but is it really the way to pick a team ? Surely, if the investment is being put into the academy players, then giving them game time is the way to develop them best.
Stainalert wrote: » Disagree there is plenty of players in AIL more than capable of playing PRO rugby. Matt Healy & Craig Ronaldson are just 2 examples of players who have made the step up from AIL and flourished - There are plenty of quality players who don't make the provincial academies for lots of different reasons - To write them off is daft. Despite all the science in rugby player selection is still very much a subjective decision driven by coaches preferences. One player might appeal to a specific coach whilst another coach might not rate the player.
thomond2006 wrote: » There are only so many senior squad places on offer. Increasing the numbers in the academy only increases the number of players you cut after three years.
errlloyd wrote: » I guess the argument is that we're bad at identifying talent at age 18. So double the chances of catching a good one. (Ajj McGinty managed to miss out for instance). How centralised is the academy structure. In New Zealand there is effectively a draft as far as I understand. I know we don't have that, but do connacht, munster and ulster selectors come to the Leinster try outs and make offers. (even like second round offers) or does a player who misses out a home contract have to travel themselves?
CMOTDibbler wrote: » I think you're both right The academies are too small. They need more investment and to at least double in size. It's absolute madness that Leinster only select eight or nine players each year for full academy slots. The point about coaches differing is well made. I know of at least one player in the Leinster sub academy who is very talented but won't make it through because he's been injured most of the season. Leinster can do this because there are so many players to choose from. The reality is that there has to be exceptional need and an exceptional player to get from AIL to a Leinster senior start. And they don't play enough matches. People think that because they are in AIL clubs as well that they get plenty of game time, but it's not the case. A lot of the time they aren't available or are told not to play or train by their academy coaches for fear of injury.
The Lost Sheep wrote: » The academies are not too small. They don't need to double in size as that isn't needed and would be a waste. There isn't the talent here for academies to double in size. Leinster pick 8 or 9 players a year like the other provinces as they have to be realistic. Not all who make an academy will go on and get a professional contract or development contract and better focus on the best with another group of players in the sub academy and being talked about/looked at The top guys at 19/20 years old do play enough matches. How many games do you think they should be playing on top of what they already do play?
CMOTDibbler wrote: » A lot of questions there, but I'll endeavour to answer them all. Bear in mind that this is something I've thought about for a while and have discussed with current AIL players who know the ins and outs of the academies and know academy players, provincial players and capped internationals. I'm not name dropping, I'm just trying to give a bit of background and demonstrate that this idea has been discussed at length and balanced/tweaked by the experience these guys have had. 1. There isn't the talent: We actually don't know this for a fact. We *do* know that players develop at different ages and that injuries at a crucial time can completely end a player's chances. There's actually a small enough 'window' of opportunity for a player to be picked up as a prospect. Often it's as young as 15 or 16. Leinster have something like 40 schools (never mind clubs) playing rugby in the province. To say that there couldn't be more than eight or nine prospects from that sized pool in a single year beggars belief. 2. There isn't enough room for them in the provinces: This is true... ish. At the same time, a quick run around the provinces tells us that all of them are short in certain positions. Leinster are tight at 9 and second row. Ulster need back rows, Connacht also at back row and are relying on imports. Munster need a 9 and 10 at least. Expanding the academies will lead to oversupply, but it's far better to be looking at them than looking for them. As ibf says, the championship needs players, but that's another story. 3. Not enough matches: Have a quick look at the academy pages and tot up the game time (B+I and Interpro) these guys get. It's miniscule. Many of them have 0 caps at any level which means they are playing AIL when they can. I believe that they need to be playing more regularly and with their academy team mates instead of broken up and all over the AIL. The idea is that academies enter the AIL in their own right and play week in, week out. This would have the effect of giving them better game time together and exposing them to genuine match experience as a unit and their coaches to other players in the leagues.
The Lost Sheep wrote: » There isn't the talent for the doubling in size of the academies. There isn't any demand from the coaches in the academy system to double the number of players in the academy. I know enough from talking to current AIL players as well about system. Leinster and all the provinces are not going to pick so many more players as that isn't worthwhile for them. There is shortages in some positions across all the provinces but you cant add players to the academies if the talent isnt there.
The Lost Sheep wrote: » The players within the academies get loads of game time. Most in the academies are under 19/20 and for September will be playing interprovincial rugby. They will also play a lot of AIL. The clubs don't want academies playing in their own right in the AIL and the players in academies will be playing British and Irish Cup for A teams as well as other A games through the season. Academy players generally all are playing in 1/2 clubs per province. In Leinster a lot of academy players are with UCD, In Munster theyre with Cork Con, Shannon etc. In Ulster Queens Belfast
Bridge93 wrote: » I would've thought the sub academies do a reasonable job of screening extra players without putting them into the academy
CMOTDibbler wrote: » And I dispute that strongly. We're talking about 200 players countrywide against 100. Over three years. The actual experience is that they are often held back by the academies for training or to prevent injury. Many of them spend weeks without a match because they are backup to backups at the provinces. The guys I'm talking to (from two different provinces) are saying the same thing. They have academy players supposedly playing for them but rarely see them on the pitch. The clubs end up working around them since they can't be guaranteed to be available when needed and rarely attend training. It would suit everyone if they formed their own teams. There have been endless discussions on the various provincial threads here about players that are needed to be bought in. The money spent on those imports would be far better spent in the academies. Even one import would cover the academy expansion I'm talking about. I haven't even touched on the benefit it would have in developing coaches. As for B+I cup and A caps? The current Munster Academy boasts 93 caps between 24 players.
The Lost Sheep wrote: » Yep and no reason for the change. We need to improve the levels below the academy like the club system and the always troublesome 17-21 age grades before doing nonsensical things like doubling the size of the academies needlessly.
The Lost Sheep wrote: » Players need to be brought through but there isn't the player depth for doubling the academies. The money isn't there to do it and it is better spent keeping the academies the same size and working more on the grassroots and then in time if we need to expand the academies do so. But that time is not now.
CMOTDibbler wrote: » There is a clear need. You admitted it yourself that we're short of players.
How do you know there isn't the player depth? Two players in the Connacht squad came straight from AIL. So did Fanning and Dundon for Leinster. James Hart is playing in Grenoble after being dropped from the Leinster sub-academy. Do I need to dredge up name after name of players that never got on to the academy A train and went elsewhere? One foreign import would pay for it all.
Buer wrote: » McGinty played AIL. No province was interested at the time. He's 25 now and a back up at Connacht. Definitely not one that got away at this time.
Hagz wrote: » Fergus McFadden has been cited for trampling on Nathan White's face. Having seen it I expect he'll receive a ban.
