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Child Item

Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

Timistry

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1022/482077-public-health-alcohol-bill/

Multiple excise increases in the last few Budgets and now this... Ireland is already one of the most expensive countries in Europe for alcohol. Like many, I can appreciate the negative impacts that it has on society but these nanny state measures just will not work

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jobbridge4life

stefanovich wrote: »

In France the price of alcohol is very very low compared to Ireland. A bottle of Irish whiskey is cheaper there than here. The French have a healthier attitude to alcohol in general despite the low price. This nanny state BS has got to stop.

While I agree with the above largely it is important to acknowledge that France is a nanny state in its own ways, the issue is more that it is an effective nanny state. France has had one of the most effective and all encompassing prohibitions on alcohol advertising for decades now.

I don't have a problem with measures to reduce the problematic aspects of drinking but I do have a problem with baseless, likely counter-productive measures introduced solely to buttress the egos of politicians and assuage the pathetic concerned mammies of Ireland.

syklops

jobbridge4life wrote: »

While I agree with the above largely it is important to acknowledge that France is a nanny state in its own ways, the issue is more that it is an effective nanny state. France has had one of the most effective and all encompassing prohibitions on alcohol advertising for decades now.

I don't have a problem with measures to reduce the problematic aspects of drinking but I do have a problem with baseless, likely counter-productive measures introduced solely to buttress the ego's of politicians and assuage the pathetic concerned mammies of Ireland.

Whatever about alcohol advertising in France, if a French politician suggested an action like this all of France would shut down in protest. The truck drivers would block all major roads until the politician was sacked, if not shot, and public servants would give away public services for free.

BuilderPlumber

jobbridge4life wrote: »

While I agree with the above largely it is important to acknowledge that France is a nanny state in its own ways, the issue is more that it is an effective nanny state. France has had one of the most effective and all encompassing prohibitions on alcohol advertising for decades now.

I don't have a problem with measures to reduce the problematic aspects of drinking but I do have a problem with baseless, likely counter-productive measures introduced solely to buttress the egos of politicians and assuage the pathetic concerned mammies of Ireland.

Exactly. Things are better thought out in other countries. Here, something is rushed through to usually placate some vested interests and to be seen as taking action. Most of the time, it is counter-productive and does not solve the problem.

Changing the price of alcohol in supermarkets will not stop the late night loudmouthed yobbos coming out of our pubs and clubs. First off, these potentially dangerous individuals chose already to buy more expensive alcohol. The gardai should be given more powers to silence these nuisances. Also, changing the price of supermarket drink will not get more people going to the pub as pub prices will remain more expensive anyway. Pubs are often worse than useless with no effort being made whatsoever and yet their owners moan and groan about no one going into them.

BuilderPlumber

jobbridge4life wrote: »

While I agree with the above largely it is important to acknowledge that France is a nanny state in its own ways, the issue is more that it is an effective nanny state. France has had one of the most effective and all encompassing prohibitions on alcohol advertising for decades now.

I don't have a problem with measures to reduce the problematic aspects of drinking but I do have a problem with baseless, likely counter-productive measures introduced solely to buttress the egos of politicians and assuage the pathetic concerned mammies of Ireland.

dr.fuzzenstein

syklops wrote: »

Whatever about alcohol advertising in France, if a French politician suggested an action like this all of France would shut down in protest. The truck drivers would block all major roads until the politician was sacked, if not shot, and public servants would give away public services for free.

If any French politicians would dare to suggest to treat wine the way we do tax-wise, they would have dusted off the old Guillotines and had themselves another revolution. Minimum pricing would lead to civil war. The way wine is taxed here is nothing short of a national scandal. It just points towards pig-ignorance and greed. We think wonders how great that €20 bottle of wine is, but by the taste of most wine here I think everyone is just sending us their dregs. In Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc... you can get that same bottle for €5 and it won't be vinegar.
This country is to wine what a Russian gulag is to political dissenters under Stalin. That is just the present situation, regardless of minimum pricing.

BaZmO*

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

If any French politicians would dare to suggest to treat wine the way we do tax-wise, they would have dusted off the old Guillotines and had themselves another revolution. Minimum pricing would lead to civil war. The way wine is taxed here is nothing short of a national scandal. It just points towards pig-ignorance and greed. We think wonders how great that €20 bottle of wine is, but by the taste of most wine here I think everyone is just sending us their dregs. In Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc... you can get that same bottle for €5 and it won't be vinegar.
This country is to wine what a Russian gulag is to political dissenters under Stalin. That is just the present situation, regardless of minimum pricing.

The French are one of the biggest producers of wine in the world, of course it's not treated the same way over there as it is here.

Plenty of vested interests and lobby groups that wouldn't allow it.

dr.fuzzenstein

BaZmO* wrote: »

The French are one of the biggest producers of wine in the world, of course it's not treated the same way over there as it is here.

Plenty of vested interests and lobby groups that wouldn't allow it.

Plus they actually understand wine.

syklops

BaZmO* wrote: »

The French are one of the biggest producers of wine in the world, of course it's not treated the same way over there as it is here.

Plenty of vested interests and lobby groups that wouldn't allow it.

Ireland is the biggest producer of Irish Whiskey in the world. Scotland is the biggest producer of Scotch in the world and the Scottish drinks industry took minimum pricing in Scotland to the European court.

Unfortunately, only a couple of small Irish owned distilleries exist. All the well known brands are foreignly owned and probably have more to gain from irish people going to France to buy their Jameson, than fighting this.

Its a sad state of affairs.

If any French politicians would dare to suggest to treat wine the way we do tax-wise, they would have dusted off the old Guillotines and had themselves another revolution. Minimum pricing would lead to civil war. The way wine is taxed here is nothing short of a national scandal. It just points towards pig-ignorance and greed. We think wonders how great that €20 bottle of wine is, but by the taste of most wine here I think everyone is just sending us their dregs. In Germany, France, Italy, Spain, etc... you can get that same bottle for €5 and it won't be vinegar.
This country is to wine what a Russian gulag is to political dissenters under Stalin. That is just the present situation, regardless of minimum pricing

We agree on this.

n97 mini

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Alcohol is way down the list of 'problems' that need to be solved in this country.

Ask the emergency services how they feel in the wee hours of Friday or Saturday nights about that. A&E is clogged at 2 AM with people who've overdone it, putting genuine cases at risk. And it's not just hospitals, the gardai are dealing with assaults, vandalism, drink driving etc.

I'm late to this thread, but the Irish relationship with alcohol needs to change. Getting pissed off our tits needs to stop. You can't look at figures as a whole and say we don't drink any more than anyone else. Sure we don't, but they don't down it all in one go on a Friday night like we do.

About this EU ruling, a bit of a reality check. The EU rule says in the Scottish case that Minimum Unit Pricing is not the way to do it when it can be done with tax instead. Reading the judgement, they don't disagree with price-hikes. The second is that this ruling only applies to this particular case, a similar case would need to be brought to stop MUP in Ireland. I can't see anyone (except Beoir, who don't have the money) bringing such a case as the industry broadly benefits from MUP: all the vested interested actually get richer from MUP.

syklops

Any time I've been in A&E it was clogged full stop. I remember being next to one drunk who was a pain in every ones arse, but he was the only drunk one i saw.

The rest of the time it was clogged with sick or injured people.

Harry Angstrom

n97 mini wrote: »

Ask the emergency services how they feel in the wee hours of Friday or Saturday nights about that. A&E is clogged at 2 AM with people who've overdone it, putting genuine cases at risk. And it's not just hospitals, the gardai are dealing with assaults, vandalism, drink driving etc.

I'm late to this thread, but the Irish relationship with alcohol needs to change. Getting pissed off our tits needs to stop. You can't look at figures as a whole and say we don't drink any more than anyone else. Sure we don't, but they don't down it all in one go on a Friday night like we do.

About this EU ruling, a bit of a reality check. The EU rule says in the Scottish case that Minimum Unit Pricing is not the way to do it when it can be done with tax instead. Reading the judgement, they don't disagree with price-hikes. The second is that this ruling only applies to this particular case, a similar case would need to be brought to stop MUP in Ireland. I can't see anyone (except Beoir, who don't have the money) bringing such a case as the industry broadly benefits from MUP: all the vested interested actually get richer from MUP.

If the Gardai imposed the laws on public drinking/drunkeness, then it might go some way towards alleviating the problem in A&E because the fear of being arrested and thrown in a cell might be enough of a deterrent. The problem with this country is that we're very quick to introduce laws but we're very slow to implement them. This can be seen from public drunkeness to dog owners allowing their mutts to defecate on our streets without any fear of recrimination or retribution.

Oh, and most of the alcohol-related problems that end up in A&E tend to stem from people falling out of late-night pubs and night clubs at 2.00 in the morning, so I doubt that minimum unit pricing will stop these piss-heads from doing what they've always done.

syklops

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

If the Gardai imposed the laws on public drinking/drunkeness, then it might go some way towards alleviating the problem in A&E because the fear of being arrested and thrown in a cell might be enough of a deterrent. The problem with this country is that we're very quick to introduce laws but we're very slow to implement them. This can be seen from public drunkeness to dog owners allowing their mutts to defecate on our streets without any fear of recrimination or retribution.

Oh, and most of the alcohol-related problems that end up in A&E tend to stem from people falling out of late-night pubs and night clubs at 2.00 in the morning, so I doubt that minimum unit pricing will stop these piss-heads from doing what they've always done.

Very well said.

n97 mini

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Oh, and most of the alcohol-related problems that end up in A&E tend to stem from people falling out of late-night pubs and night clubs at 2.00 in the morning, so I doubt that minimum unit pricing will stop these piss-heads from doing what they've always done.

Either way, only a change in our relationship with alcohol will improve things.

Turpentine

n97 mini wrote: »

Either way, only a change in our relationship with alcohol will improve things.

Em...change your relationship with alcohol so?

BuilderPlumber

n97 mini wrote: »

Ask the emergency services how they feel in the wee hours of Friday or Saturday nights about that. A&E is clogged at 2 AM with people who've overdone it, putting genuine cases at risk. And it's not just hospitals, the gardai are dealing with assaults, vandalism, drink driving etc.

I'm late to this thread, but the Irish relationship with alcohol needs to change. Getting pissed off our tits needs to stop. You can't look at figures as a whole and say we don't drink any more than anyone else. Sure we don't, but they don't down it all in one go on a Friday night like we do.

About this EU ruling, a bit of a reality check. The EU rule says in the Scottish case that Minimum Unit Pricing is not the way to do it when it can be done with tax instead. Reading the judgement, they don't disagree with price-hikes. The second is that this ruling only applies to this particular case, a similar case would need to be brought to stop MUP in Ireland. I can't see anyone (except Beoir, who don't have the money) bringing such a case as the industry broadly benefits from MUP: all the vested interested actually get richer from MUP.

Alcohol abuse and alcohol related crime is a real issue. But those who enjoy it responsibly should not be paying because of the yobbos who abuse it. Ireland is the only country I have seen yobbos roaring at the top of their voices after coming out of clubs, pubs, etc. and they not arrested.

The target needs to aim at individual abusers of alcohol who cause trouble and often mix it with cocaine and other drugs. We tolerate these types more than most countries (ironically, Middle Eastern countries who officially ban or restrict alcohol are the only places that turn a blind eye to alcohol abuse as much as we do!) and that needs to stop.

My solution would be that alcohol prices stay the same, get reform in insurance law to lower pub prices, BUT then clamp down on drink abusers. If they get hurt, they pay extra hospital bills. If they are violent, shout, drop poos, puke, urinate, etc., they do their time. Shouting at the top of one's voice at 2 in the morning (yes, I can open my window and hear them if I want here in Cork) should be a crime and is elsewhere. When a government can differentiate between drinkers and problem drinkers and legislate accordingly, THEN and only THEN are we onto a proper solution to poor drink culture.

dr.fuzzenstein

n97 mini wrote: »

Either way, only a change in our relationship with alcohol will improve things.

And minimum pricing will not achieve that.

n97 mini

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

And minimum pricing will not achieve that.

Increasing taxation or using MUP to implement punitive pricing hasn't been tried. As much as people may not like it, it might break the cycle, but you or I don't know either way.

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

Increasing taxation or using MUP to implement punitive pricing hasn't been tried. As much as people may not like it, it might break the cycle, but you or I don't know either way.

We have increased taxation, consistently over decades, to some of the highest in the world. It hasn't done a thing.

dr.fuzzenstein

n97 mini wrote: »

Increasing taxation or using MUP to implement punitive pricing hasn't been tried. As much as people may not like it, it might break the cycle, but you or I don't know either way.

We have some of the highest alcohol prices in the world and yet we have a "problem" according to some vested interests, lobby groups and quangos. In Germany I can buy a bottle of vodka and a six pack of beer for less than €15 but hoardes of drunken Germans crawling around on their hands and knees puking, pissing and fighting are nowhere to be seen, so the pricing argument is bollocks, pure and simple. Anyone who argues otherwise is either a fool or knows that damn well, but has a vested interest.
If it does come in, I might acquire myself a small van and make frequent trips to France to stock up my wine cellar. Maybe the odd neighbour might be interested in a bottle. I'm sure I can be persuaded to let it go for a reasonable price. Will I be the only one? I'll probably be the only one who isn't in a criminal gang. Expect to see turpentine being sold as Smirnoff for a fiver at your local market and they also sell fags from China with God knows whatnin them. This is horseh*t and won't work.

Blut2

MUP is a terrible idea, because the revenue from the increased sale price of alcohol goes to retail stores/alcohol producers.

An increase in duty however would be a rather different matter. Even if an increase in duty had zero effect on alcohol consumption (which may or may not be the case), it would have a rather large side effect of raising revenue for the state.

Punitive taxes on unnecessary (and more importantly, severely health damaging) goods such as cigarettes and alcohol are a positive thing. Basically, they have no possible negative outcome, from a nation's perspective - if the price increase from raised duty reduces consumption its a winner for public health, if consumption stays the same but government revenues increase its a winner for schools, hospitals, Garda stations etc that receive additional funding.

edit: re importing; alcohol is far too bulky for most people to bother with this. Cigarettes are lighter, smaller, higher taxed and easier to counterfeit yet the majority of cigarettes smoked in Ireland are still legally bought. Short of alcohol increasing 1000% in price its unlikely any large amount of private importation will occur.

n97 mini

L1011 wrote: »

We have increased taxation, consistently over decades, to some of the highest in the world. It hasn't done a thing.

Including effecting punitive pricing: You can still buy cans of shít beer for next to nothing.

syklops

n97 mini wrote: »

Including effecting punitive pricing: You can still buy cans of shít beer for next to nothing.

Im so sick of hearing this "cheap alcohol" argument. Whats next to nothing for you? The absolute cheapest is still around a euro a can. In other countries in Europe a euro is what a person pays for a pint of decent beer in a glass in a pub, but in Ireland we consider that next to nothing for as you say, a can of sh1t beer.

listermint

syklops wrote: »

Im so sick of hearing this "cheap alcohol" argument. Whats next to nothing for you? The absolute cheapest is still around a euro a can. In other countries in Europe a euro is what a person pays for a pint of decent beer in a glass in a pub, but in Ireland we consider that next to nothing for as you say, a can of sh1t beer.

He doesnt care, he is off on one despite no evidence to back anything he is saying.

We could have 10 Euro per can he would still say we should have 20.

Its nonsense.

And whats more nonsense is the soundbite minister who is heralding it, man of no substance what so ever.

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

Including effecting punitive pricing: You can still buy cans of shít beer for next to nothing.

Irrelevant - they're still dear compared to nearly everywhere else.

If pricing stopped people drinking harmfully, we'd have very low levels of harmful drinking. Duty has been increased repeatedly and it hasn't changed behaviours; further duty or minimum pricing is going to be similarly ineffective.

dr.fuzzenstein

n97 mini wrote: »

Including effecting punitive pricing: You can still buy cans of shít beer for next to nothing.

Try this, 6 bottles of beer for €1.69.
http://www.discounter-preisvergleich.de/Pilsener-6x-0-5-L-ALDI-Sued-1552.html
No, that is not per bottle, this is 3 liters of beer for the total outlay of One Euro and Sixty Nine Cent. THAT, my good sir, is cheap. It works out at 69 cent per liter of beer at 5% alcohol. I can buy a bottle of Schnaps for less than a tenner on top of that, but you would know that had you not ignored my last post.
So, again and once and for all, the price argument is horsehsh*t.

n97 mini

L1011 wrote: »

Irrelevant - they're still dear compared to nearly everywhere else.

Everywhere else is irrelevant. The societal issue is in Ireland, and €1 a can is cheap relative to spending power.

Punitive pricing does work, but before anyone starts foaming at the mouth, I have already stated that it hasn't been tried here with alcohol so WE DON'T KNOW. Some posters seem to have crystal balls, I don't.

Where punitive pricing has been shown to work here is with motor taxation (which is an infringement of civil liberties imho: I shouldn't be punished just for owning a car with a large engine), and certainly cigarette smoking has declined but pricing has lead to a significant black market. And if I remember rightly "alco pops" died a death here after the balls were taxed off them.

syklops

n97 mini wrote: »

Everywhere else is irrelevant. The societal issue is in Ireland, and €1 a can is cheap relative to spending power.

.

One euro is cheap for a bottle of wine, which is what it is in France. A euro for a can of 5% beer is daylight robbery.

odyssey06

n97 mini wrote: »

And if I remember rightly "alco pops" died a death here after the balls were taxed off them.

"Alcopops" died a death alright. That must be why Tesco Clare Hall has an entire shelf section for "pre-mixed spirits" which is where Bacardi Breezer, Smirnoff Ice, Blue WKD are now in heaven. RIP.

testaccount123

n97 mini wrote: »

Everywhere else is irrelevant.

Everywhere else is irrelevant except when we are comparing average alcohol consumption you mean, then suddenly everywhere else is extremely relevant.

Blut2

syklops wrote: »

One euro is cheap for a bottle of wine, which is what it is in France. A euro for a can of 5% beer is daylight robbery.

Cigarettes are 1eur a packet in Dubai, but over 10eur a packet in Ireland. This is clearly daylight robbery. But society has gradually come around to the idea that taxing cigarettes to at least cover the health costs they do to the state makes sense.

Alcohol has almost as many negative side effects on society as cigarettes do (lesser health, but much greater social costs) - heavily taxing it in a similar way makes perfect sense.

Would you prefer to pay more income tax or pay more for booze? Because either way the emergency services at weekends, the long-term healthcare costs for alcohol related health disorders etc have to be paid for. It's a zero-sum game unfortunately.

(I'm not a teetotaler either, I consume roughly the average number of units for an Irish person per week every week. I just have enough common sense to see it as the unnecessary, damaging, luxury good that it is).