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Child Item

Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

Timistry

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1022/482077-public-health-alcohol-bill/

Multiple excise increases in the last few Budgets and now this... Ireland is already one of the most expensive countries in Europe for alcohol. Like many, I can appreciate the negative impacts that it has on society but these nanny state measures just will not work

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BuilderPlumber

What really annoys me about governments like ours is they claim on one hand to be all for the free market and ignore the big issues and when they go wrong, they blame market forces and being pro-free market when they do not intervene. Yet, they stick their noses into everything else like the price of alcohol and mess things up. Retailers should be allowed set whatever prices they like. Those who abuse alcohol should be dealt with by the police if they fight or smash up the towns.

Prices of everything in Ireland are too expensive. This drive to demonise alcohol consumption (in the home) seems to be an obsession with politicians. The politicians are supposed to be there for one reason only: to solve the problems that affect their electorate. Who asked for this proposed legislation? No one. Who wants this legislation? Publicans and sellers of more expensive alcohol. Ask most people about this proposed legislation and most would either oppose or be indifferent to it.

Legislation is needed on about 100 issues in Ireland, many to do with pricing but pricing of goods in the opposite direction. The governments of Ireland have for too long being protecting vested interests and you notice they did not put an increase on alcohol in the budget as it would affect ALL alcohol sellers. This is targeting supermarkets.

<snip>

GLaDOS

Boy, that post escalated quickly

oblivious

@BuilderPlumber Keep it to the topic and non offensive

The rest get it back on topic please

Faith

Mod note: A few off-topic posts deleted. Please stay on topic and be civil, all.

Shelflife

rubadub wrote: »

You are saying you make 16cent profit on a €1.09 can?

Then my understanding is if it goes to €1.95, that is an 86cent increase. And the government gets 16cent as VAT and you get 70cent.

So for you to be making the same 16cent on it are you expecting the supplier to raise the price by 70cent the day this comes in? taking all of the extra profit themselves?

If so I would do what I have said numerous times, import from a region where there is no minimum pricing and so lower wholesale prices, probably lower than here right now. Plenty of independent offies have peculiar foreign beers at low prices, which I presume are more profitable to them than buying from the proper distribution routes of the big boys. My supervalu sometimes has scottish market heineken cheaper than Irish cans, and its 5% too, while the irish is 4.3%. I expect there are many distributors like this already

I have heard of a guy who is meant to import beers direct from germany an sell on, all above board.

Also there is no price fixing of the wholesalers going on, if they do increase it by 70cent surely some other brewer will not up the price as much (or at all) and benefit from a huge increase in sales to offies.

I'd imagine that the wholesaler will pass on some extra margin to the retailer but not much. If not I'd imagine that others will step in and do so.

The fact is that the cheap beer market will disappear, why would you pay €1.95 for a "cheap" beer when you can get a "good" beer for the same price.

The problem drinker will unfortunately keep drinking in the same quantities , so this will have little or no effect on what it purports to be doing.

rubadub

Shelflife wrote: »

I'd imagine that the wholesaler will pass on some extra margin to the retailer but not much. If not I'd imagine that others will step in and do so..

Well if a wholesaler increased a can by 70cent you would be insane to stick with them. I expect many are loving the thought of official distributors increasing prices, and could easily drop prices and be making similar weekly profits, due to much higher sales.

Shelflife wrote: »

The fact is that the cheap beer market will disappear, why would you pay €1.95 for a "cheap" beer when you can get a "good" beer for the same price.

Several reasons the market would be there.
A small offie in a remote place could well ditch the big brands, and only sell cheaper ones. Think of an offie near croke park or the RDS when a huge gig is going on, they could just get the cheapest one they can get. At them moment if a can of dutch gold was chanced to be sold at 2 euro people might refuse on principle that its much cheaper elsewhere -it will be interesting to see how peoples perception changes, would they walk down the road to an offie that did have their preferred stuff, and pay the same price, or just accept the dutch gold. They can no longer get the dutch gold cheaper, so they are having to travel elsewhere simply on taste.

I find some loudmouth fussy drinkers are not so fussy when they go to a concert venue with very limited choice. Or if their drink runs out at a party they will drink the beer they are often saying is pure and utter piss, which they swore they would never drink.

Many of the mainstream beers are now "cheap", I would not pay over a euro for guinness, heineken, carlsberg etc. they are, and always have been cheaply produced beers on a par with the ones sold cheaper. Some would continue to buy "cheap" beers as they are still their favourite tasting one. A lot of the cheaper supermarket ones will remain cheaper too, as the price is based on % and they tend to be lower.

There will be less stigma to beers, especially new beers as people currently often use the price as a quality guide.

I expect there to be deals on beer which could sidestep the min pricing, and so cheap beers could still be cheap. e.g. buy a tray of guinness and get a bottle of champagne at a hugely reduced price. Or a mix match of beers in a selection but with limits, i.e. buy 6 beers 3 of which must be bavaria or tuborg, and 3 of more expensive ones. They could have food combinations too or some token scheme or similar. Small shady offies could be doing illegal stuff.

Shelflife wrote: »

The problem drinker will unfortunately keep drinking in the same quantities , so this will have little or no effect on what it purports to be doing..

They might drink more. I would predict many will turn to spirits, same price per unit alcohol but typically more effect as most drink it faster and at far less dilution levels.

L1011

If the Sunday Times is even vaguely right with their guess for an election date (January 29th - I'm fairly certain it won't be, as that's the day *before* Labours conference and RTE won't cover conferences after an election is called usually), this is dead in the water.

Dail will be in recess from the end of the week until probably the end of January. It is very plausible the Dail will be dissolved immediately then.

It is on the agenda for the week, but in the Seanad only and only to move to Second Stage. On Thursday. And the Dail is not set to sit on Friday...

flutered

L1011 wrote: »

If the Sunday Times is even vaguely right with their guess for an election date (January 29th - I'm fairly certain it won't be, as that's the day *before* Labours conference and RTE won't cover conferences after an election is called usually), this is dead in the water.

Dail will be in recess from the end of the week until probably the end of January. It is very plausible the Dail will be dissolved immediately then.

It is on the agenda for the week, but in the Seanad only and only to move to Second Stage. On Thursday. And the Dail is not set to sit on Friday...

the dail is sitting late until christmas to get legislation through, so the times could well be correct

L1011

flutered wrote: »

the dail is sitting late until christmas to get legislation through, so the times could well be correct

I really don't see a dissolution on Thursday or at any stage the Dail is out of session but I wouldn't rule it entirely out.

In either scenario, this is dead.

stefanovich

Shelflife wrote: »

The fact is that the cheap beer market will disappear, why would you pay €1.95 for a "cheap" beer when you can get a "good" beer for the same price.

I reckon the price of all drinks will go up. You'll be paying 4 euros for good beer.

mightybashful

L1011 wrote: »

I really don't see a dissolution on Thursday or at any stage the Dail is out of session but I wouldn't rule it entirely out.

In either scenario, this is dead.

Scumbag varadkar said this wouldn't be in place during the lifetime of this government. But it will form part of the fg election manifesto.

Up to us really

BeerNut

L1011 wrote: »

In either scenario, this is dead.

For this Dáil and this government, yes, and the government has said as much. But it's very likely to be restored by the next government since it has such cross-party support.

L1011

BeerNut wrote: »

For this Dáil and this government, yes, and the government has said as much. But it's very likely to be restored by the next government since it has such cross-party support.

Except the Scottish decision which is almost inevitable will happen before then, and any Government campaigning to do something illegal isn't likely to be putting that much effort in to it.

This was a last roll of the dice grandstand and a little bit of an olive branch to Shortall who resigned over failing to get other alcohol controls passed and is now in a party that the next government may rely on.

rubadub

stefanovich wrote: »

I reckon the price of all drinks will go up. You'll be paying 4 euros for good beer.

Can you give some examples of these "good beers" you reckon will go to 4 euro.

I was saying offies could import themselves if wholesalers increased prices, but some EU offies might be able to send here directly. Some are already paying Irish duty etc in advance so I would imagine they still might be able to, and just have to charge the minimum. This way they could have "free delivery" to give you a sneaky discount.

Shelflife

rubadub wrote: »

Can you give some examples of these "good beers" you reckon will go to 4 euro.

I was saying offies could import themselves if wholesalers increased prices, but some EU offies might be able to send here directly. Some are already paying Irish duty etc in advance so I would imagine they still might be able to, and just have to charge the minimum. This way they could have "free delivery" to give you a sneaky discount.

It's not as straight forward as you think to import drink. There's a lot of red tape that goes with it and you would have to order serious quantities. It wouldn't be worth an independent offies while to go down that route.

It may well open up import opportunities for new suppliers though.

stefanovich

rubadub wrote: »

Can you give some examples of these "good beers" you reckon will go to 4 euro.

I was saying offies could import themselves if wholesalers increased prices, but some EU offies might be able to send here directly. Some are already paying Irish duty etc in advance so I would imagine they still might be able to, and just have to charge the minimum. This way they could have "free delivery" to give you a sneaky discount.

My only point is that if the cheapest beer is now 2 euros wouldn't better beers also increase in price? It seems only logical.

Good beers? Becks, Kronenberg, Krombacher etc

bennyineire

I can't see "good beers" such as heineken,Carlsberg, Guinness going anywhere near over €2.50 a can, if they do then they are approaching the price point of craft beers.
If the price of the macro beers is similar to craft beers then a lot more people might start to think about craft beer and this would terrify the big boys.

BeerNut

bennyineire wrote: »

If the price of the macro beers is similar to craft beers then a lot more people might start to think about craft beer and this would terrify the big boys.

They won't, though. It's not like macro drinkers are put off drinking craft beers because of the price.

stefanovich

Alternative is that Becks remains 2 euros a can and the **** beers increase to 2 euros a can. Becks wins, no **** beer remains... Now we have craft beer for the hipsters and Becks for the rest.

bennyineire

BeerNut wrote: »

They won't, though. It's not like macro drinkers are put off drinking craft beers because of the price.

I think they would be more willing to try if the price is similar, didn't they would move en mass

bennyineire

stefanovich wrote: »

Alternative is that Becks remains 2 euros a can and the **** beers increase to 2 euros a can. Becks wins, no **** beer remains... Now we have craft beer for the hipsters and Becks for the rest.

Sigh, I drink craft beer but am no hipster and tbh its a very lazy stereotype

oblivious

bennyineire wrote: »

Sigh, I drink craft beer but am no hipster and tbh its a very lazy stereotype

Lazy journalism keepS spreading the notation

dr.fuzzenstein

stefanovich wrote: »

Alternative is that Becks remains 2 euros a can and the **** beers increase to 2 euros a can. Becks wins, no **** beer remains... Now we have craft beer for the hipsters and Becks for the rest.

It won't make a difference to craft beer or Becks. And it also won't make a difference to the normal mainstream filth like Heineken and Budweiser. Actually I'm wrong, it will make a difference to them, people won't start buying craft beer, they will simply by the more expensive main stream muck. It will affect Dutch Gold or Lidl and Aldi own brands.
I might possibly buy more Budvar or Krombacher.

The hatred for craft beers and hipsters is just the usual internet arising around.

odyssey06

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It won't make a difference to craft beer or Becks. And it also won't make a difference to the normal mainstream filth like Heineken and Budweiser. Actually I'm wrong, it will make a difference to them, people won't start buying craft beer, they will simply by the more expensive main stream muck. It will affect Dutch Gold or Lidl and Aldi own brands... The hatred for craft beers and hipsters is just the usual internet arising around.

Nobody hates craft beer.... But strangely, some people take a dislike to the kinda people who label what they drink as 'muck' and 'filth' and think that drinking craft beer entitles them to a superior attitude to all other beer drinkers... Fine, you don't like it, but no need for perjorative terms for the alternatives. If you think craft beer is best, stress its positives.

Qualitymark

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

It won't make a difference to craft beer or Becks.

This is going to be the first time in history that government announces a raised price and capitalists don't raise prices?

BeerNut

bennyineire wrote: »

I think they would be more willing to try if the price is similar, didn't they would move en mass

There are plenty of places they can try it for free, today, but they're not interested. You can buy craft beer cheaper than macro too. But nothing beats the secure feeling you get from a brand you trust, not even price.

Geuze

Ageyev wrote: »

If 40% 700ml bottles of spirits are now starting at €27-28 then someone will be doing well. Maybe not you but someone will do well out of this.

Note that the min price proposed for 40% spirits 700ml would be approx 22.40.

See here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98075965&postcount=2945

stefanovich

Only leg pulling with the craft beer comments. Not a fan of strong IPA or Weissbier or whatnot though. Pretty much any German pils will do me.

rubadub

stefanovich wrote: »

My only point is that if the cheapest beer is now 2 euros wouldn't better beers also increase in price? It seems only logical.

Good beers? Becks, Kronenberg, Krombacher etc

What seems logical to me is that there is still free competition between distributors, breweries and offies, so if all the local offies do increase krombacher to €4, then one will undercut all the rest and get all the business. How soon after the introduction do you think they would be at €4?

posted this in after hours.
These figures are 500ml cans/bottles, % and price to the right, so 4.3% heineken will be €1.70 min

3.8 1.50
3.9 1.54
4 1.58
4.1 1.62
4.2 1.66
4.3 1.70
4.4 1.74
4.5 1.78
4.6 1.81
4.7 1.85
4.8 1.89
4.9 1.93
5 1.97
5.1 2.01
5.2 2.05
5.3 2.09
5.4 2.13
5.5 2.17
5.6 2.21
5.7 2.25
5.8 2.29
5.9 2.33
6 2.37
6.1 2.41
6.2 2.45
6.3 2.49
6.4 2.52
6.5 2.56

Krombacher is currently 1.95 or 6 for €10 in drinkstore. I think the local offies like this could clean up with "free" delivery offers too. There is some shady place that delivers outside of allowable hours already.

BeerNut wrote: »

They won't, though. It's not like macro drinkers are put off drinking craft beers because of the price.

+1, if there was a minimum price introduced on cheese I would not expect all the easi single & mild cheddar eaters to start eating typically more expensive "stinky" & flavoursome varities. Many steer well clear of unknown brands, even ones which are not particularly different.

dr.fuzzenstein

odyssey06 wrote: »

Nobody hates craft beer.... But strangely, some people take a dislike to the kinda people who label what they drink as 'muck' and 'filth' and think that drinking craft beer entitles them to a superior attitude to all other beer drinkers... Fine, you don't like it, but no need for perjorative terms for the alternatives. If you think craft beer is best, stress its positives.

I don't even drink craft beer, I'm happy with a good Pils. Budweiser and Heineken are not good beers. I struggle to class them as beer. Budweiser especially doesn't qualify by German standards. Perlenbacher is a better beer than either one of them. But then again mass produced industrial lubricants and lithium based high-temperature grease for industrial machinery is a better beer.