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Child Item

Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

Timistry

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1022/482077-public-health-alcohol-bill/

Multiple excise increases in the last few Budgets and now this... Ireland is already one of the most expensive countries in Europe for alcohol. Like many, I can appreciate the negative impacts that it has on society but these nanny state measures just will not work

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BeerNut

oblivious wrote: »

Well I suppose that you could argue that tax revenue could be put to some good rather than going to the retailer

Indeed. It's rarely mentioned that the main poster-boy for Minimum Unit Pricing, British Columbia, has all state-owned liquor stores, so the extra cash from MUP goes back to providing public services rather than lining anyone's pocket.

Brendan Bendar

Hare brained policy, instead of tackling the people who abuse the product,to whom price is incidental, they target the moderate tippler.

Publicans think they will get a rise out of this- think again.

Tazz T

ThisRegard wrote: »

I bought a box of Heineken which worked out at €1 a bottle a few weeks ago. Look at what Lidl and Aldi sell. There is lots of cheap alcohol out there. You're deluded if you think there's none.

We officially have the most expensive alcohol in the EU and fourth expensive in the entire world.

When the government say 'cheap alcohol', they aren't referring to the general price of alcohol, they are referring to alcohol not sold in pubs which is 'cheaper'.

Vested interests.

L1011

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Hare brained policy, instead of tackling the people who abuse the product,to whom price is incidental, they target the moderate tippler.

And don't target the bottle of wine each a night middle class - which is very harmful drinking - who, incidentally, usually vote FG.

ThisRegard

Tazz T wrote: »

We officially have the most expensive alcohol in the EU and fourth expensive in the entire world.

When the government say 'cheap alcohol', they aren't referring to the general price of alcohol, they are referring to alcohol not sold in pubs which is 'cheaper'.

Vested interests.

But when you take into account promotions etc, alcohol can be gotten very cheaply in Ireland from the off trade. That's the whole point. I'm not talking about RRPs, but the reality of what people can spend in an off licence or supermarket.

I don't think it has ever been cheaper.

L1011

ThisRegard wrote: »

But when you take into account promotions etc, alcohol can be gotten very cheaply in Ireland from the off trade. That's the whole point. I'm not talking about RRPs, but the reality of what people can spend in an off licence or supermarket.

I don't think it has ever been cheaper.

Its still amongst the dearest in the world.

"never been cheaper" does not equal "cheap".

ThisRegard

I don't know, if people think that a bottle of can for €1 or less is not cheap I've no idea what they expect. For it to be cheaper than the water itself used to make it?

L1011

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't know, if people think that a bottle of can for €1 or less is not cheap I've no idea what they expect. For it to be cheaper than the water itself used to make it?

Have you ever traveled abroad and bought alcohol in off-sales there?

Some proportionality in pricing is all people expect. Alcohol prices here are high - very high.

Some of the countries we consider "dearer" than here due to dear on-sales pricing have cheaper off-sales!

ThisRegard

I have. I even lived in a country full of fordeners. But I also saw how much they earned relative to what we earn in Ireland, and they had practically no welfare state.

As I said, everything is relative. Compare their price of beer with their minimum wage and welfare rates for a realistic comparison.

L1011

ThisRegard wrote: »

As I said, everything is relative. Compare their price of beer with their minimum wage and welfare rates for a realistic comparison.

We're still close to the dearest in the EU out of the countries with comparable figures.

UK has similar enough income levels and far cheaper off-sales
Netherlands has similar enough income levels and far cheaper off-sales
Denmark has similar enough income levels and far cheaper off-sales
France has similar enough income levels and far cheaper off-sales
Repeat until you run out of countries

Sweden and Finland are about the only dearer than us (and Denmark in pubs). Alcohol is expensive in Ireland - that is not really something arguable.

ThisRegard

I don't think it's expensive. How can you say €1 for a bottle is expensive? As I said numerous times, all is relative. It may be expensive compared to a 20c bottle from Europe somewhere, but that does not make it expensive in itself.

L1011

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't think it's expensive. How can you say €1 for a bottle is expensive? As I said numerous times, all is relative. It may be expensive compared to a 20c bottle from Europe somewhere, but that does not make it expensive in itself.

Its expensive because nearly all comparable markets are cheaper, as has been explained to you repeatedly.

This is what relative actually means. We're not comparing to Romania here, but to the other high income, high price economies in Europe - and we're extremely dear.

I can get 24 Heineken for 14.69 year-round in an Albert Heijn in the Netherlands. Less than €1 a bottle, not a special offer. Equivalent box is €20 for 20 here when not on offer.

10 Kronenbourg for 5.05 in Carrefour in France - smaller bottles, but not by much.

24 33cl cans of Carlsberg for 13.41 in Fotex in Denmark - and I'll get 1.61 back for the cans on the return scheme, so 11.80.

30 33cl bottles of Budweiser for €24.99 (yes, it converted that nicely) in Sainsburys in the UK

oblivious

ThisRegard wrote: »

I don't think it's expensive. How can you say €1 for a bottle is expensive? As I said numerous times, all is relative. It may be expensive compared to a 20c bottle from Europe somewhere, but that does not make it expensive in itself.

The argument by the government is that if you increase price it will have an effect. But Irish people paying the third highest tax in the EU on beer, the second highest on spirits and the highest tax in Europe on wine. With out any change in the way we drink. An that's the issue, its how people drink not the price that's the problem.

An to add, alcohol consumption has been dropping over the last 15 years, by approximately 25% (Based on CSO population and migration estimates and Revenue Commissioners Alcohol Clearance data 2013)

flutered

rubadub wrote: »

Have you seen any evidence of below cost selling that you can link to? I have asked this many times in many threads and got nothing.

In the UK a year or so ago they investigated the impact of a ban on below cost selling. Turned out only 3-4 non mainstream products were being sold below cost. They would have a similar market to ours. They scrapped the idea and of course the publicans said nothing.

What you have is shouting from vitners that below cost selling goes on, but they never show evidence. Some idiot publicans are paying stupid amounts for beer at wholesale and so presume the supermarkets must be selling below cost since they pay more. This is not particular to publicans, I know a few guys in certain trades who stupidly believe the wholesale cost is ALWAYS less than retail could ever be.
Some publicans post here, in many threads I have pointed out that my local centra often has 20 heineken for €15, and that a centra is not a place people do a full shop in, so very unlikely to be employing a below cost marketing strategy. I see most people carting out beer with nothing else. No publicans or people in the trade ever respond to this for course.

There is no talk of the government getting it. It will be an odd situation. As BeerNut said it could be wholesalers jacking up prices.

It is weird as it might just phase out cheapo beers. If everything stayed the same it would be like going into an offie for 4 cans and having a tenner and them having no change and so being forced to spend it, so instead of going to get 4 cheap €1 cans most would be more inclined to go for premium bottles at €2.50. (well most might get 10 cans but you get my point). In this way it should be very good for craft beers.

A min price on chocolate bars would see people turning to lindt and butlers bars instead of cheapo ones.

if i had a fiver for every time i saw a local publican leave a supermarket with a trolly full of alcahol, i could afford a six months sun and drink holiday

ThisRegard

oblivious wrote: »

The argument by the government is that if you increase price it will have an effect. But Irish people paying the third highest tax in the EU on beer, the second highest on spirits and the highest tax in Europe on wine. With out any change in the way we drink. An that's the issue, its how people drink not the price that's the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I have never once said this is going to solve any ills, including I think in this thread originally when it was started.

My issue is to how people think we're paying ridiculous money for alcohol as it is. True in pubs, not so true in supermarkets and the off trade.

There's no point comparing us to countries where you can buy a stubby for a few cent, everything in that country is going to be cheaper, not just alcohol. And for comparable country's, just because we're paying more, doesn't necessarily make it expensive, just more expensive than the county you're comparing it with.

L1011

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's no point comparing us to countries where you can buy a stubby for a few cent, everything in that country is going to be cheaper, not just alcohol.

We're not. We're comparing like with like, despite you repeatedly trying to make the claim that we're not. Saying something over and over again doesn't actually mean someone was doing it. You're effectively trying to construct a strawman here.

ThisRegard wrote: »

And for comparable country's, just because we're paying more, doesn't necessarily make it expensive, just more expensive than the county you're comparing it with.

Yes, it does make it expensive.

What do you think would define what makes something expensive, it not valid comparison?

ThisRegard

So tell me, what do you think, in Ireland, is not an expensive price for a bottle of beer, and what's your basis for it?

mjv2ydratu679c

ThisRegard wrote: »

So tell me, what do you think, in Ireland, is not an expensive price for a bottle of beer, and what's your basis for it?

Seriously are you for real? It was explained so a 4 year old could understand it in post 223.

L1011

ThisRegard wrote: »

So tell me, what do you think, in Ireland, is not an expensive price for a bottle of beer, and what's your basis for it?

I've told you repeatedly.

60c for a normal 330ml bottle of a normal enough ABV% product.

This is roughly what it costs in equivalent economies. Alcohol is 20-40% dearer here than equivalent economies.

Now, I want you to explain why prices are "not expensive" as you keep stating with zero reasoning.

ThisRegard

Angie Raspy Shark wrote: »

Seriously are you for real? It was explained so a 4 year old could understand it in post 223.

Maybe you're three so because all that did was point out the cost in other countries.

L1011 wrote: »

I've told you repeatedly.

60c for a normal 330ml bottle of a normal enough ABV% product.

This is roughly what it costs in equivalent economies. Alcohol is 20-40% dearer here than equivalent economies.

Now, I want you to explain why prices are "not expensive" as you keep stating with zero reasoning.

Look, it's more expensive, it's not expensive.

There's no point in trying to debate further, but people are off the wall if they think €1 is expensive and expect it to be reasonably priced only when it's cheaper than milk, soft drinks and even water.

L1011

ThisRegard wrote: »

Look, it's more expensive, it's not expensive.

You have completely failed to explain why its not expensive (in your opinion, not backed up by comparisons to anywhere)

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's no point in trying to debate further, but people are off the wall if they think €1 is expensive and expect it to be reasonably priced only when it's cheaper than milk, soft drinks and even water.

Beer is not cheaper than soft drinks or water. I'm beginning to get the feeling you don't actually go in to shops much. Pubs riding people for soft drinks doesn't come in to an off-sales price comparison.

Its not particularly much cheaper than milk either - but beer doesn't have to be processed through an expensive animal that lives on a fairly extensive bit of land.

If you were actually going to bring something to the debate other than "its not expensive, cause I say so" there might be a debate to further - but you haven't

rubadub

ThisRegard wrote: »

Look, it's more expensive, it's not expensive.

bizarre!

ThisRegard wrote: »

There's no point in trying to debate further, but people are off the wall if they think €1 is expensive and expect it to be reasonably priced only when it's cheaper than milk, soft drinks and even water.

2L of sparkling water is 49cent in tesco.
I would never pay over 1.50 for a 2L of branded coke, last ones I got were €1 for 2L in tesco a week ago.

I am sure some vitner spokesman could find a 250ml of water bottle on sale for over €2, maybe in one of his buddies pubs, a pint of coke in my local would be €8.55, they usually stick to supermarket prices though, you can find high prices there too if you want. If you want to be an idiot that either pays that much, or believes its the going rate then go right ahead and be fooled.

This stupid comparison to the price of water you always hear should be turned right on its head "wow, some supermarkets are attempting to charge more for water than beer, and beer has all those extra costs associated with it, it's madness"

adomolis

Guess it will be time to go back for some shopping in northern ireland. I'll just buy my whiskey and wine stocks for a year and be done with that. Our government is not getting a single C E N T from me with this scam.

murphyaii

adomolis wrote: »

Guess it will be time to go back for some shopping in northern ireland. I'll just buy my whiskey and wine stocks for a year and be done with that. Our government is not getting a single C E N T from me with this scam.

not with the current exchange rate and price increases will not come in till next summer.
time to increase my production of home brew wine and beer me thinks.:rolleyes:

adomolis

murphyaii wrote: »

not with the current exchange rate and price increases will not come in till next summer.
time to increase my production of home brew wine and beer me thinks.:rolleyes:

Rum over there in ALDI costs 9,99gbp. After conversion even at todays rate thats 13.80eur. And after that law comes into effect that bottle here will cost at least 28eur. So that makes it twice. I think saving 14 euros per bottle is damn worth a trip.

Geuze

Clearly, off-trade beer in RoI is more expensive than most other countries, that is true.

When the Govt refer to "cheap beer", they mean the fall in the absolute and relative price of off-trade beer over the last 10-20 years. That is also true.

In 1995 approx, 50cl cans were well over IR£ 1, in fact I think 33cl cans were IR£1.

So a 50cl can was approx half the price of a pub pint.

Now I can buy cans of Guinness on offer for 1.20-1.50, while the pub price is 4.10-4.20.

So, in relative terms, beer is cheaper.

Now 33cl bottles have experienced deflation during last ten years, they were never sub 1-euro twenty years ago.

I have seen 33cl bottles as low as 75c - I can tell you that these prices have fallen not just relatively, but in absolute terms.

dr.fuzzenstein

ThisRegard wrote: »

I have. I even lived in a country full of fordeners. But I also saw how much they earned relative to what we earn in Ireland, and they had practically no welfare state.

As I said, everything is relative. Compare their price of beer with their minimum wage and welfare rates for a realistic comparison.

You must be new to this thread and have not seen my consistent postings about the price of alcohol in Aldi in Germany. Here is is again. I can get a bottle of vodka and a six pack for under €15, so yes. Ireland is unreasonably expensive for booze as it is. So price is not the issue. Can we please move on from this stupid, debunked and frankly emberrasing argument?

http://www.supermarktcheck.de/aldi-sued/sortiment/bier/

ThisRegard

rubadub wrote: »

bizarre!

It's pretty simple actually. a car for €100 is more expensive than a car for €90. But it's not actually expensive.

What exactly is your difficulty with comprehending that simple mathematical operator?

Geuze

The cheapest 50cl cans are 22c in Aldi/Lidl in Germany.

50cl bottles of spirits are from 6-7 euro over there.

That nation successfully exports 1 trillion euro of goods and services, and has approx 5% unemployment.

Their life expectancy is similar to ours.

L1011

ThisRegard wrote: »

What exactly is your difficulty with comprehending that simple mathematical operator?

What exactly is your difficulty in explaining why you think Ireland is not expensive?

You've twisted, turned and evaded every way possible. Answer the question.