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Child Item

Daughter sent home from pre-school for the second time

itsasecret

Hi everyone,

My four year old seems to be struggling with pre-school and to be honest I'm not sure how to help her. She is my second child and I have a three month old. She goes into pre-school happy. The first time they rang the said she had been screaming for an hour. That was about three weeks ago. At the time I collected her and said nothing about the fact preschool had suggested strong I get her, I was worried she would link bad behaviour with a half day off preschool. They said she was having a power struggle with them but after an hour they had to move on. Today she would not do what she was told (sit on her seat) and then pushed other kids off. She was told that if she continued they would call me and she told them too and they did. I read her the riot act.

She is such a smart child but I'm really worried she will see herself as a "bad" or "naughty" child. She is headstrong and testing at home but pretty much like every other 4 year old I know. I'm also very aware that I do have a new baby . Anyone got any suggestions how to handle this, I'm really worry she will be kicked out of pre-school..

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TheQuietFella

How Strange wrote: »

I agree with January. I'd be more concerned with the staff's training to deal with very typical pre-school behaviour than with your child. I'd guess that their reaction to her initial behaviour just causes it to escalate.

Always someone else's problem bar the parents of the child!

itsasecret

I'm more then happy to take the blame but it does not solve my problem. Reward chart is up and running but got third phone call today. My daughter refused to go up the stairs this morning. My husband did not hug her goodbye, he did wave and blow kisses and this error just put a whole stop to her cooperation. (She was not upset just refused to go upstairs) To be fair Playschool were great, I arrived ..carried her upstairs and hugged her and she was then fine.
I just wish I could help her and I guess Playschool deal with her moods.

Roselm

It sounds like a power struggle.
She wants to be dominant but so do you.
I'm not sure what the answer is.
I assume there's no reasoning with her? What happens if you ask for her input/opinion on things during the day and explain why things are a certain way ie give her a voice (power) and status (treat her as more of an equal).
Would she take the piss or do you think she would calm down as she wouldn't be fighting to be noticed /taken into consideration???
This might be totally unworkable and I might be way off in terms of what is underlying her behaviour it was just what struck me when I read back through your posts.

zeffabelli

itsasecret wrote: »

I put up a reward chart on Monday with a list of five golden rules but it seems she lost it on Monday and ended up hitting the teacher. Got a phone call from preschool today to be told another child had slapped mine across the face but it seems for once she was the innocent party. When you say organic causes?

Neurological. Always good to rule those out or consider them.

This sounds like a lot of stress.

January

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Always someone else's problem bar the parents of the child!

:rolleyes:

Nobody ever said that. The parent is being proactive here but the playschool need to be also. My daughter is in preschool. I don't get a phone call every time she refuses to do something.

volchitsa

Miaireland wrote: »

With the waiting lists of most creches I would guess if you threated to take your business elsewhere they would say goodbye.

Chemical Byrne has said elsewhere that he has no children. I'm not even sure he's part of a couple - but that didn't stop him giving similar-level "hardball" sexual/post childbirth advice on another thread.

He's a troll, and a mildly sociopathic one at that, that's all.

January

volchitsa wrote: »

Chemical Byrne has said elsewhere that he has no children. I'm not even sure he's part of a couple - but that didn't stop him giving similar-level "hardball" sexual/post childbirth advice on another thread.

He's a troll, and a mildly sociopathic one at that, that's all.

If you have a problem please report it to mods or report a post. Please don't post off topic like this on a thread again.

volchitsa

January wrote: »

If you have a problem please report it to mods or report a post. Please don't post off topic like this on a thread again.

ok sorry. Fair cop.

Sunny Dayz

itsasecret wrote: »

I'm more then happy to take the blame but it does not solve my problem. Reward chart is up and running but got third phone call today. My daughter refused to go up the stairs this morning. My husband did not hug her goodbye, he did wave and blow kisses and this error just put a whole stop to her cooperation. (She was not upset just refused to go upstairs) To be fair Playschool were great, I arrived ..carried her upstairs and hugged her and she was then fine.
I just wish I could help her and I guess Playschool deal with her moods.

I'm a little puzzled. Did your husband just drop her off at the door? Why did the playschool ring you and not your husband? So you had to traipse into playschool from home to bring her up the stairs?

itsasecret

They meet you at the door and bring all the kids upstairs together. They rang me cause I think my number may have been given to ring first, my husband was on the way to work so better they ring me. And yes , but it's only a five minute drive. I should say my older son went to the same preschool with no problems at all. I kept her home today because she had a bad night and a bad start to the day so I just feel it's best to keep her home.

volchitsa

I hadn't realized (or had forgotten) she wasn't the eldest - my MiL, who had three children (can you tell this wasn't in Ireland?

) says she was always told the middle one of three tends to be whingy and clinging, because they've got the toughest place in the family, neither the eldest ("you're my big boy/girl") nor the baby, who's "allowed" to stay babyish for longer.

I don't know if it's always the case, but I'd guess that from her position at the moment, she's feeling a bit lost now that she's not even got the place of ''the baby" any more.

Mary63

I think she is much too old for this behaviour too and I am not surprised the staff are passing the buck onto you.

She is probably too big to be carried screaming and kicking into the playschool and why should the staff have to risk putting their backs out by doing this.She probably was told over and over to go in the door like all the other children and she screamed continuously.You then arrived and carried her up the steps,she is a domineering bullying child and you need to get professional parenting advice now.

Its very unfair on the rest of the children who are having their mornings spoilt and they are probably afraid of your child.I would think the playschool will be asking you to remove her soon,have you an alternative nearby.

I would also be checking to see if there are neurological issues,this isnt normal behaviour for a four year old.

Also,what do you mean by a bad start to the day,was this more screaming,this all sounds very stressful.

omnithanos

Our little fella was fine in jr. infants but as soon as he moved into snr. infants he started to demonstrate behavioral problems which were completely out of character. He had already been given a diagnosis of Autism but we were told it was 50/50 and we believed that we were just given the diagnosis in order to get extra help if it was deemed necessary. We considered that he just had dyspraxia which he had been diagnosed with prior to the autism diagnosis.
The change in behavior, combined with increased stimming, convinced us that we were also dealing with Autism and we were then lucky enough to secure a place in a school with an autistic unit.

As zeffabelli has said Neurological. Always good to rule those out or consider them. There could be an underlying issue which may need investigating.

itsasecret

Mary63 wrote: »

I think she is much too old for this behaviour too and I am not surprised the staff are passing the buck onto youShe probably was told over and over to go in the door like all the other children and she screamed continuously.You then arrived and carried her up

Its very unfair on the rest of the children who are having their mornings spoilt and they are probably afraid of your child.I would think the playschool will be asking you to remove her soon,have you an

Just on two points. She was not screaming continuously she just refused to go upstairs. When I arrived she was in the baby room, just waiting for me.

Also she gets on well with the other children. I don't think any of them would be afraid of her.

I'm leaning towards the bad behaviour rather then mental health issues because she can behave well when she chooses to. Her behaviour at home while not perfect is not bad.

omnithanos

People with ASD can be adversely affected by certain sounds, changes to routine or crowds which may not present in the home environment.

http://www.helpguide.org/articles/autism/autism-spectrum-disorders.htm

It may however just be a phase she's going through. The reward chart is great but it's important to be consistent. The naughty step has worked well for us but it is important to always follow thorough when using discipline.

zeffabelli

omnithanos wrote: »

Our little fella was fine in jr. infants but as soon as he moved into snr. infants he started to demonstrate behavioral problems which were completely out of character. He had already been given a diagnosis of Autism but we were told it was 50/50 and we believed that we were just given the diagnosis in order to get extra help if it was deemed necessary. We considered that he just had dyspraxia which he had been diagnosed with prior to the autism diagnosis.
The change in behavior, combined with increased stimming, convinced us that we were also dealing with Autism and we were then lucky enough to secure a place in a school with an autistic unit.

As zeffabelli has said Neurological. Always good to rule those out or consider them. There could be an underlying issue which may need investigating.

Girls often get overlooked for asd and adhd too.

eviltwin

Has anyone suggested an Assessment of Needs OP just to rule out sensory issues?

LegacyUser

OP I'm not that sure what the answer is but some of it sounds like she's a bit stressed.
Having said that, I wonder is there a lot of attention being paid to this.From some of what you're saying, the school reacts in big fashion to this behaviour (calling you), you're coming and going and picking her up etc (because you have to).Do you discuss it at home a lot with her, or with your husband in front of her?

I wonder if there is a lot of attention on this behaviour and whats happening, and she's become aware of it.I'd go for the reward chart for starters, keep it up.She's not going to understand how it works in a week or two, she has to see it in action repetitively and and over a period of time.If she still loses it...so be it.Tomorrow's another day.

I would definitely talk to the school.With all due respect to the staff and other kids, if this was a primary school it is highly highly unlikely you would be getting phonecalls.I understand that there are other kids there etc, but really, you need to agree a plan of some sort with them.If she's at that screaming and howling and not going upstairs there must be some way that
they can suggest dealing with it other than calling you.They must have had other kids with problems too and have ideas for it.I'm not saying it's all their responsibility to deal with but I really don't think that calling the mother this often is the solution either.It seems odd to me.

I'd also suggest seeing if you could give her some time for herself with you.Is there any way you could pick her up and walk home without the baby some days in a week, or go out for an hour with her at weekends or something?This time could be used to try and see what she's thinking.Four year olds don't have the language to always express what they are feeling so often we have to give it to them, either through books or role play games or just asking them some leading questions.I know it might sound softly softly but at the moment it seems like she's got a lot of change to deal with and maybe she just doesn't know how to react.

I will say that I don't think you doing one particular thing will solve this.I think it will be a combination of efforts between you and the school and it will be slow.But I do think you can work it out over time.

Mary63

The staff who I am presuming are specially trained couldnt get your four year old to obey them.

You arrived and you carried a four year old up the stairs,did you reprimand her for refusing to obey the staff who then had to ring you,what are you going to do when you go back to work.There will be very serious consequences in school if she hits a teacher,this behaviour needs to be stopped now.Have you made an appointment to speak with the staff in the playschool,could you attend without your daughter and without the baby.The playschool need to be getting your girl ready for school and discipline strategies need to be put in place now before she gets any older.She should know at four that lashing out physically is totally unacceptable.

I definitely think you shoud check out neurological issues,it wouldnt be any harm.

itsasecret

Mary63 wrote: »

The staff who I am presuming are specially trained couldnt get your four year old to obey them.

You arrived and you carried a four year old up the stairs,did you reprimand her for refusing to obey the staff who then had to ring you,what are you going to do when you go back to work.There will be very serious consequences in school if she hits a teacher,this behaviour needs to be stopped now.Have you made an appointment to speak with the staff in the playschool,could you attend without your daughter and without the baby.The playschool need to be getting your girl ready for school and discipline strategies need to be put in place now before she gets any older.She should know at four that lashing out physically is totally unacceptable.

I definitely think you shoud check out neurological issues,it wouldnt be any harm.

Yes, I have indeed noticed there is a problem. That is why I am posting. I did of course give out to her but I'm not in Preschool with her and it's very difficult for me to do anything about her behaviour in Preschool. That's why I'm here looking for advice, most days she is fine but

volchitsa

Mary63 wrote: »

The staff who I am presuming are specially trained couldnt get your four year old to obey them.

You arrived and you carried a four year old up the stairs,did you reprimand her for refusing to obey the staff who then had to ring you,what are you going to do when you go back to work.There will be very serious consequences in school if she hits a teacher,this behaviour needs to be stopped now.Have you made an appointment to speak with the staff in the playschool,could you attend without your daughter and without the baby.The playschool need to be getting your girl ready for school and discipline strategies need to be put in place now before she gets any older.She should know at four that lashing out physically is totally unacceptable.

I definitely think you shoud check out neurological issues,it wouldnt be any harm.

My children are all older now, and we weren't in Ireland when they were in pre school, but I wonder how well trained the staff actually are? I've seen my nephew, who's a very bright, cheery but definitely dominant nature behaving impossibly for the staff at his pre school group, and indeed in the first years in school (this was in NI, so ages would be a little different).

Anyway my point is that a child who, while not "easy to handle" should not have been beyond the capacities of "specially trained" staff was running rings round them, it was ridiculous how hopeless they were with him. They used to sit them in front of the computer to have some peace, I thought it was shocking, but it seemed to be the norm there.

This is my nephew, not my son, so it's no skin off my nose if the staff couldn't handle him - but they clearly couldn't. He only really settled into school after the first years, once it got a bit more challenging for him, so I suspect he was just basically fed up.

TL;DR- I wouldn't read too much into the idea that "specially trained staff" can't cope, IME they aren't all that well trained.

itsasecret

Playschool rang me at 9.04 it starts at 9 so to be fair I think yesterday they just felt it might be easier on everyone if I just kissed her and get her upstairs

volchitsa

I think if you have the slightest worry that there could be something organic (I see autism has been mentioned) talk to your GP sometime - but since you say she's able to behave fine at other times, that's probably unlikely. So it would really be just to set your mind at rest.

Most of all, don't let people diagnose her on here!! And don't let your own confidence be undermined by people decreeing what's normal at that age, they haven't seen her, so they can't say.

If she generally gets on well with other children, and is normally fairly outgoing, it's likely to be temporary issues, so all you want is ideas to help you cope and improve things so they don't turn into a bigger battle than necessary. One of the most important things, IME, is the confidence not to get wound up by other people's judgments about your children.

I've no practical ideas at the minute that you haven't already been given here (my kids are grown up now) but remember that these phases mostly pass! Wait till she gets to teen years, you'll be looking back on this with nostalgia!

And all the best.

Sunny Dayz

itsasecret wrote: »

Playschool rang me at 9.04 it starts at 9 so to be fair I think yesterday they just felt it might be easier on everyone if I just kissed her and get her upstairs

What?! The playschool gave up trying to discipline your child after 4 minutes? Phoning the parent to come into playschool should be as a last resort, not after 4 minutes!! That's just laziness by her carer, the child isn't doing what she's told, we'll just ring her mum and she will rush over and deal with it for us! If I were you I would be making an appointment with the manager of the playschool pronto.

eviltwin

volchitsa wrote: »

I think if you have the slightest worry that there could be something organic (I see autism has been mentioned) talk to your GP sometime - but since you say she's able to behave fine at other times, that's probably unlikely. So it would really be just to set your mind at rest.

Most of all, don't let people diagnose her on here!! And don't let your own confidence be undermined by people decreeing what's normal at that age, they haven't seen her, so they can't say.

If she generally gets on well with other children, and is normally fairly outgoing, it's likely to be temporary issues, so all you want is ideas to help you cope and improve things so they don't turn into a bigger battle than necessary. One of the most important things, IME, is the confidence not to get wound up by other people's judgments about your children.

I've no practical ideas at the minute that you haven't already been given here (my kids are grown up now) but remember that these phases mostly pass! Wait till she gets to teen years, you'll be looking back on this with nostalgia!

And all the best.

Both my kids have Aspergers and had similar problems. Both had things that were triggers so they could behave okay most of the time but when faced with a trigger they went mad. I definitely think the Assessment of Needs should be considered as much to rule neurological issues out as in. I've been through the pre school thing with my son, always waiting for the phone to ring, never able to relax in case he has a meltdown....It's exhausting for everyone. Tbh as mentioned above a call after four minutes is ridiculous, it's like they have given up on her.

Flippyfloppy

Whitewinged wrote: »

Its strange but i have a 3 and a half year old and new baby almost 3 months and my daughter has also randomly started crying in the creche. They didnt ask me to collect her or take her home so she wasnt that bad but they said it to me a couple of times when id arrive to collect her.

It hasnt happened for about two weeks now. I just had a little chat with her about it and she seems to be fine now. You know i think its just change thats all. Just speak with the creche and collect her if she gets too worked up and hopefully it will pass.

It sounds like things at the play school are just getting worse and worse, I imagine there is little to no relationship between your daughter and her carer right now? There certainly sounds like there is a power struggle and one side needs to back down. Having worked with children for years my inclination would be for the adult to back down and let your daughter have her bit of independence. Like if she didn't want to sit down in her chair for a task that's fine. (Most montessoris would be quite liberal with letting a child choose) Allowing this to go on for an hour sounds a bit much to be honest. Playschool should be fun for your child, it might actually be that the shoe doesn't fit anymore with that particular school.

Obviously, as you've mentioned your daughter has gone through a huge change with the arrival of a new sibling. Do you think she's getting proper rest at night or would she be woken when baby needs feeds etc? Personally I found out toddler was exhausted too when our new baby arrived!

volchitsa

Hi Eviltwin - I definitely wasn't criticizing the idea that maybe she should get it checked out if she has any doubts, I was more referring to the hyper critical posts telling her the child wasn't behaving normally etc - there just isn't enough information here for anyone to do that, and people who are doing that (not you!) are way out of order.

I just think that most parents, once they can bring themselves to ask those questions, can see for themselves that stuff isn't normal, and I'm not getting that feeling here. I have friends whose two daughters have Aspergers, and the parents, not the preschool, were the ones begging for a diagnosis, because they knew there was something wrong.

Whereas you post on a MB asking for ideas to help cope with a situation, and you get (some) posters telling you you're a terrible parent - great! That's really what she needs!! (Again, just to be clear - I'm absolutely not saying an assessment isn't a good idea - I'm talking about the pointless, purely negative criticism that's also present here).

Qualitymark

itsasecret wrote: »

Thanks guys.. She went to Playschool there, three afternoon a week but the main career left and a new girl started just as pre-school started. It was another bad day, she threw a jigsaw across the room and the kicked it and broke it (they did not ring me but told me after, feel like worse parent ever)

Nah. We've all thrown a jigsaw in our time. I once threw a typewriter.

SPROINNNNNNGGGGG!!!

Very satisfying.

Honestly, it sounds as if she just doesn't suit the playschool she's in. If it's at all possible, what about taking her home for a month, then finding a new playschool and easing her in a bit gradually?

Wouldn't neurological issues show up at home as well as in playschool?

eviltwin

Qualitymark wrote: »

Nah. We've all thrown a jigsaw in our time. I once threw a typewriter.

SPROINNNNNNGGGGG!!!

Very satisfying.

Honestly, it sounds as if she just doesn't suit the playschool she's in. If it's at all possible, what about taking her home for a month, then finding a new playschool and easing her in a bit gradually?

Wouldn't neurological issues show up at home as well as in playschool?

Often school or pre school is the first indicator especially for a child who hasn't grown up with a lot of siblings

Flippyfloppy

eviltwin wrote: »

Often school or pre school is the first indicator especially for a child who hasn't grown up with a lot of siblings

That's true but she was fine last year according to the OP. And she's had two big changes, a new sibling & teacher. The latter doesn't sound best equipped to deal with behaviours!