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Taboo status of suicide

denhaagenite

Was just reading the news and came across this:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hundreds-expected-at-removal-of-cathriona-white-in-tipperary-tonight-699860.html

So despite the fact that in all of the campaigns we're urged to talk about it, a suicide as high profile and widely reported as this is written off as a "sudden death"?? This is completely outrageous. How can we expect people to not be ashamed of this if it can't even be commented on publicly?

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conorhal

denhaagenite wrote: »

Was just reading the news and came across this:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hundreds-expected-at-removal-of-cathriona-white-in-tipperary-tonight-699860.html

So despite the fact that in all of the campaigns we're urged to talk about it, a suicide as high profile and widely reported as this is written off as a "sudden death"?? This is completely outrageous. How can we expect people to not be ashamed of this if it can't even be commented on publicly?

I don't think there really is a 'taboo' regards talking about suicide, that seems more like an oft repeated meme that has no basis in reality, there's no shortage of public debate, it's regularly mentioned on the airwaves and debated here when it hits the papers, there are school talks and national suicide prevention days etc.
The shortage it seems to me isn't talk, it's properly funded services, good luck to anybody that requires psychiatric help outside HSE office hours. If it wasn't for charities like Pieta House or the Samaratins there would be nothing but talk at all.
You know what is isn't ever spoken about though? Fixing some of the underlying causes of poor mental health amongst vulnerable groups. Of course social isolation, financial ruin, drug abuse and the disappearance of communities are issue for which there aren't overnight or inexpensive fixes and if it isn't revenue generating then the government has little interest in taking a broader look at what kind of society we are building. In many ways it suits the government to keep perpetrating the myth that we 'need to talk more about suicide' because talk is cheap and action is expensive.

As for the 'sudden death' reporting, the cause of death is up to the corronor to report, not the newspapers.

One eyed Jack

denhaagenite wrote: »

He can have his opinion, I'm not taking that from him and I have no intention of rising to your attack because my opinion differs from yours- my opinion is based on facts, that shame does not prevent suicide. You can keep talking about individual cases all you like but on the whole this does not work.

I wasn't attacking you, but your opinion is based upon a very tight interpretation of the facts, and shame can be as much a preventative factor in suicide, as much as it can be a deterrent, or a determining factor. You can read the latest report from the National Office for Suicide Prevention here if you would rather we didn't focus on individual cases -

Ireland’s National Strategy to Reduce Suicide 2015-2020

denhaagenite wrote: »

I'm saying that he shouldn't have been used as a poster child for suicide prevention. There were people using him as a puppet because his situation was just too sad to ignore, and he shouldn't have been used that way. And fwiw, I'm guessing his fear, anger and sadness stemmed from the fact that he was faced with his own mortality at such a young age. Nobody was shaming the poor thing for having cancer

That's all you're doing, is guessing, rather than listening to what he was actually saying, just like you haven't listened when I didn't say anyone was shaming him for having cancer. I said people were trying to shame him claiming he didn't have, or couldn't have had, any idea what he was talking about. I didn't particularly care that he had terminal cancer, I found what he had to say regarding his own experiences with his people who were experiencing suicide and depression were insightful, and as has been posted already, his opinion did have a positive effect on some of those people who it was actually aimed at.

He wasn't being used as the poster child for suicide, he chose to put himself out there and one of the best ways to reach as many young people as possible who are experiencing depression and contemplating suicide, was through the same national media who you criticised for omitting the way in which a person chose to take their own life.

[Deleted User]

There need to a be empirical study on whether their really is more mental health issues in Irish society that in other cultures.

Then there needs to be a empirical study to see why with all the awareness talking about it and so on has not been effective in reducing rates of suicide or what impact awareness had on suicide in general.

Has any society and culture ever reduced suicide by some intervention medical social or another way?

denhaagenite

Deleted User wrote: »

Read here to get more information on why suicide is reported in the media the way in which it is.

It's not to make it taboo - not in the slightest.

http://www.samaritans.org/your-community/samaritans-work-ireland/media-guidelines-ireland

Appreciate you posting this. Breaking News haven't really followed the guidelines though, that's what I've saying. They have reported on it using other's writings previously in full, and now that they are reporting in their own words they just haven't used the word "suicide".

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I wasn't attacking you, but your opinion is based upon a very tight interpretation of the facts, and shame can be as much a preventative factor in suicide, as much as it can be a deterrent, or a determining factor. You can read the latest report from the National Office for Suicide Prevention here if you would rather we didn't focus on individual cases.

I think we should focus on individual cases. Individually. I don't think we should take a solution that might work for individual cases and apply it to a whole society though.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That's all you're doing, is guessing, rather than listening to what he was actually saying, just like you haven't listened when I didn't say anyone was shaming him for having cancer. I said people were trying to shame him claiming he didn't have, or couldn't have had, any idea what he was talking about. I didn't particularly care that he had terminal cancer, I found what he had to say regarding his own experiences with his people who were experiencing suicide and depression were insightful, and as has been posted already, his opinion did have a positive effect on some of those people who it was actually aimed at.

He wasn't being used as the poster child for suicide, he chose to put himself out there and one of the best ways to reach as many young people as possible who are experiencing depression and contemplating suicide, was through the same national media who you criticised for omitting the way in which a person chose to take their own life.

How could he have had any idea what he was talking about? He wasn't depressed or suicidal, nor did he have any background or qualification in mental illness. He was saying that people were selfish for taking their own lives when people like him didn't have any choice to live. Whatever positive effect this had is at best hypothetical, people are saying that he was a brave young man and there have been some events set up in his name but I don't see any actual positives. Depressed or suicidal people don't need to hear how selfish they are, some people already think this and it would be enough to push them over the edge.

He chose to say what he said, and he was entitled to say it whether I agree or not. RTE and others chose to give him a podium, and I think that was irresponsible. If anyone is to be shamed it should be them, not a dying (now RIP) child. Shame isn't even the word I would use. The methods should be questioned, that's all.

[Deleted User]

denhaagenite wrote: »

Appreciate you posting this. Breaking News haven't really followed the guidelines though, that's what I've saying. They have reported on it using other's writings previously in full, and now that they are reporting in their own words they just haven't used the word "suicide".

I think we should focus on individual cases. Individually. I don't think we should take a solution that might work for individual cases and apply it to a whole society though.

How could he have had any idea what he was talking about? He wasn't depressed or suicidal, nor did he have any background or qualification in mental illness. He was saying that people were selfish for taking their own lives when people like him didn't have any choice to live. Whatever positive effect this had is at best hypothetical, people are saying that he was a brave young man and there have been some events set up in his name but I don't see any actual positives. Depressed or suicidal people don't need to hear how selfish they are, some people already think this and it would be enough to push them over the edge.

He chose to say what he said, and he was entitled to say it whether I agree or not. RTE and others chose to give him a podium, and I think that was irresponsible. If anyone is to be shamed it should be them, not a dying (now RIP) child. Shame isn't even the word I would use. The methods should be questioned, that's all.

How do you know his intervention and it broadcast in the media didn't help someone even if it was only one person.

People have been helped by having a dog and not wanting to leave their dog.

denhaagenite

mariaalice wrote: »

People have been helped by having a dog and not wanting to leave their dog.

Yes but this has been proven to work. Shaming someone into not committing suicide has been proven not to help, and in fact can make a person worse.

[Deleted User]

denhaagenite wrote: »

Yes but this has been proven to work. Shaming someone into not committing suicide has been proven not to help, and in fact can make a person worse.

But message was not be ashamed of what you are doing, it was think about what you are doing and the choice you have.

denhaagenite

mariaalice wrote: »

But message was not be ashamed of what you are doing, it was think about what you are doing and the choice you have.

That might have been the intention, however it was too open to interpretation for it to be repeated the way it was without causing harm. A person who is suicidal could quite easily think "this is yet another reason on my list that I'm making the right decision".

SouthTippBass

denhaagenite wrote: »

Was just reading the news and came across this:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/hundreds-expected-at-removal-of-cathriona-white-in-tipperary-tonight-699860.html

So despite the fact that in all of the campaigns we're urged to talk about it, a suicide as high profile and widely reported as this is written off as a "sudden death"?? This is completely outrageous. How can we expect people to not be ashamed of this if it can't even be commented on publicly?

The wording is deliberate. They don't have results from the autopsy yet so it cant be confirmed as a suicide, no matter how obvious. When you're talking about a suicide that involved an overdose, autopsy results can take 6-8 weeks.

Whitewinged

denhaagenite wrote: »

I'm not writing Dónal Walsh off on the basis of his age. I'm writing him off because he wasn't in any fit state to comment on suicide. He was a person who had been robbed of both his child and adulthood, and was angry that he wanted to live and, as he saw it, others were selfishly throwing away what he would have given anything to have. He was scared, angry and sad, and he knew very little about the subject he was talking about.

I imagine he was scared, angry and sad at the prospect of facing death not unlike the feelings of helplessness that someone would be feeling when contemplating suicide.

I dont think he saw others as selfish, I think he was saying that he was angry at suicide not people who commit suicide.

I dont think he was shaming people either. I think he was doing exactly what your op suggested. He was making it less taboo to talk about.

I think that he was using his situation to relate and reach out to anyone thinking of commiting suicide and trying to give the message, "im not unlike you, i cant stop my situation but you can get help." He was encouraging people to get help rather than feeling "robbed", he was accepting his situation and trying to stop anyone from going through something similar if it could be stopped by getting help.

I dont think your giving him enough credit since his position and illness meant that he was slowly going through what people thinking about suicide are contemplating. He was dying and he was trying to show the reality of facing death.

Tarzana2

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I think it's really unfair to put other people's happiness on top of a suicidal person
"Don't kill yourself because your friends will be devastated and your boyfriend would never get over it".

Someone in that state has enough trouble trying to cope with their own feelings without dumping others on top of them too.

It's a factor in the lack of death with dignity laws. "Ah no, your family will be devastated". "Oh, OK, I'll just die in agony whilst my body falls apart then" :mad:

Tarzana2

denhaagenite wrote: »

Agreed, that kid from Tralee that died of cancer last year was a prime example of this. Not responsible, because he was a child and dying, however I think those who put him in the spot light and allowed what he said to be broadcast over and over was extremely irresponsible. He didn't understand what it was like to be depressed and suicidal, just as others don't understand what it is like to have terminal cancer.

I understand what it's like to have both. Yay! :pac:

Tarzana2

Deathwish4 wrote: »

I think his message was more around young people getting the support and help they needed if they felt a certain way.

I can't dig up the stats now, but i'm fairly sure his work had a very positive impact on the Suicide rate in the Cork/Kerry region.

I have a feeling stats would somehow be manipulated to show this. He had a lot of support in his retrograde views.

[Deleted User]

Personally I don't think that suicide is the issue and I'm all for it not being discussed in the media or mentioned all that much. So what if people know that it was?

The issue here is what is spurning people into suicide - that is a complete lack of openness, understanding, and compassion to those suffering from mental health illnesses. We're much better off investing our energy into fixing this than discussing anything to do with the supposed taboo of suicide.

The_Valeyard

I agree with previous posters,

The wording is deliberate. Think it was in North Kildare couple years ago, where all the attention from a school students suicide, led or influenced another four or five more.

It's a very tricky and delicate issue to deal with. Exposure may not be the best approach, but also a taboo style nature of it, might also not be a good approach. Difficult to find the line between the two.

seenitall

Tarzana2 wrote: »

I understand what it's like to have both. Yay! :pac:

You seem to be a very brave woman, I wish you well.

Samaris

This sorta breaks down into two questions:

DOES Ireland have a serious problem with suicide?
IS there a culture of shame around it?

The first can be answered more easily than the second, although even that has some issues with it. In 2015 so far, Ireland ranks 59th in the world (out of 170 countries with data), same level as Madagascar. Our nearest neighbour, the UK is ranked 107th. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate)

Looking at the numbers a bit more closely, particularly in the case of children and "youths" - below the age of 25. Ireland has the highest rate of young female suicides in the EU, and the second highest rate of young male suicides (just below Lithuania). This is from a European survey of EU countries based on figures between 2009-2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ireland-has-exceptionally-high-rates-of-suicide-1.1732791)

PISA lists Irish suicides rates has having doubled between 1987 and 1997, and levelling off since then. I'll come back to that point later.

Alright, so I think if we take the above numbers as accurate or even, as is not unlikely, somewhat under-reported across the field, we can say that Ireland has a problem with suicide.

So, second question, is there a culture of shame around it?
This is the question that I can't answer with figures, I can only make assumptions. That PISA quote, about suicide rates having doubled. Now, during that period, the country underwent a huge upheaval, socially, religiously, culturally and financially. It quite simply was not the same country in 1997 as it was in 1987. So, it is not impossible that suicide rates really -did- double. However, and this is based on purely anecdotal evidence, people -did not talk- about suicide. If it could be possibly covered over, it was; accident, etc. No doubt Catholic principles played a large part in this.

So, say the sudden, cataclysmic societal upheaval of the youth of Ireland moving away from their religious roots played a part in this, very abruptly shedding most of the mores (or assuming they did) of their more religious parents? Reporting of suicides where they might not have been previously reported likely would have gone up. But we still have some internalised issues, and a large population of older people who did grow up in a time where mental health and suicide just wasn't talked about. So maybe there still is some shame to it, be it straight-forwardly religious from the older people and/or a mix of more modern feelings of "giving up", etc., perhaps also based in some unadmitted religious mores from upbringing. There's a reason we still have a bit of a reputation for being sexually repressed too!

Alcoholism is also another factor, but I won't delve into it too much, since this is already turning into an essay.

Overall, I'm not claiming to be right or even on the right track, but I think these are points worth considering in any debate on Irish suicide rates.

Tarzana2

seenitall wrote: »

You seem to be a very brave woman, I wish you well.

Not at all. You don't know the amount of times the last few months that I have been a massive bitch to those who love me. Today for example, I had a huge row with my mother because I want to take a chemo break so that I can go out for a big meal next Thursday. And I'm not very gracious much of time. I won't be a poster girl for advanced cancer sadly. :pac:

One eyed Jack

Samaris wrote: »

This sorta breaks down into two questions:

DOES Ireland have a serious problem with suicide?
IS there a culture of shame around it?

...

Looking at the numbers a bit more closely, particularly in the case of children and "youths" - below the age of 25. Ireland has the highest rate of young female suicides in the EU, and the second highest rate of young male suicides (just below Lithuania). This is from a European survey of EU countries based on figures between 2009-2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ireland-has-exceptionally-high-rates-of-suicide-1.1732791)

...

Overall, I'm not claiming to be right or even on the right track, but I think these are points worth considering in any debate on Irish suicide rates.

I think you're on the right track alright, and the piece of your post I highlighted there in bold is often one that adults when we talk about suicide, seem to ignore, and it's even happened in this thread earlier. I don't want to keep harping on about it but when adults have this impression of "sure they're only kids, what do they know about suicide?", and the fact of the matter is that they know a frightening amount about suicide and suicidal ideation, due to the influence among young people of the internet and social media.

Suicide was decriminalised in 1993, so these teenagers we're seeing now, have never grown up with, nor experienced the stigma surrounding suicide that there was pre-1993, pre-1997 and even at a push I'd say pre-2007, because yes, there are people as young as 8 and 9 who are engaging in self-harming behaviour and suicidal ideation. To say to these young people that they know nothing and how could they know anything about suicide, self-harm, suicidal ideation and even depression and ill mental health, is actually dismissive, and if I'm to be perfectly honest, it perpetuates the ignorance that adults have in failing to recognise the symptoms of suicidal ideation and ill mental health among young people. They do know what they're talking about, and they're talking about themselves, but if we're too busy telling them "shush, the adults are talking, you don't know what you're talking about", that's when they feel ignored and isolated and they withdraw further from society and into the online community that makes them feel like their thinking and their behaviour is normal, completely rational, and therefore there is no shame or stigma attached.

I don't think that suicide should ever be talked about in society the way we talk about other subjects, as it doesn't prevent suicide. What does prevent suicide is early intervention and addressing mental health issues as early as possible, and the government are going some way towards that with a new initiative in Irish primary schools aimed at promoting better mental health among children, because that's where it starts, with children, as children -

WELL-BEING IN PRIMARY SCHOOLS

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

mariaalice wrote: »

But message was not be ashamed of what you are doing, it was think about what you are doing and the choice you have.

"Suicide is selfish"
"It's the cowards way out"
"Look at what it would do to your family".

denhaagenite

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think you're on the right track alright, and the piece of your post I highlighted there in bold is often one that adults when we talk about suicide, seem to ignore, and it's even happened in this thread earlier. I don't want to keep harping on about it but when adults have this impression of "sure they're only kids, what do they know about suicide?"

You are harping on about it though. Nobody here said that he shouldn't or didn't know anything about it because he was a child. He just didn't know anything about it full stop, why else would he do the TOTAL OPPOSITE of what advice suggests people should do in an attempt to be helpful? He and everyone else got really emotional because he was a terminal cancer sufferer and no other reason. He was emotional, God bless him.

Boring username

LexieOnRale wrote: »

I think it's really unfair to put other people's happiness on top of a suicidal person
"Don't kill yourself because your friends will be devastated and your boyfriend would never get over it".

Someone in that state has enough trouble trying to cope with their own feelings without dumping others on top of them too.

Realistically, what would you prefer someone said to a suicidal person?

"You just go ahead and kill yourself if you want anyway, sure kids practically raise themselves these days".....

I'm genuinely baffled that people have a problem suggesting that suicide will hurt the family and friends left behind to pick up the pieces. If that stops even one person from committing suicide then the strategy has already worked.

One eyed Jack

denhaagenite wrote: »

You are harping on about it though. Nobody here said that he shouldn't or didn't know anything about it because he was a child. He just didn't know anything about it full stop, why else would he do the TOTAL OPPOSITE of what advice suggests people should do in an attempt to be helpful? He and everyone else got really emotional because he was a terminal cancer sufferer and no other reason. He was emotional, God bless him.

With all due respect, unless you're a mind reader, you don't know how much he, or any other young person, knows about suicide, and if you aren't prepared to listen to what they are actually saying, then you're only making it very difficult on yourself first of all to understand their point of view from their perspective (not your perspective, but their perspective), then you're only going to make it more difficult for young people to talk about how they are actually feeling, before you write them off as 'emotional' because of what you think may be the most obvious reason they are... 'emotional'. If you listen to them, you'll gain a better understanding of where they're coming from, rather than expect they should understand where you're coming from instead.

I'm 38 years of age, and it takes listening to a 16 year old to help me articulate my own thoughts in my own head, better than listening to any amount of adults who spent years talking over my head because they thought they knew my own mind and they knew me better than I know myself, and so they weren't prepared to listen and didn't want to listen, and that IMO, needs to stop. We need to start listening to young people instead of telling them what we think they do, or don't know, about themselves.

OneOfThem

Boring username wrote: »

Realistically, what would you prefer someone said to a suicidal person?

"You just go ahead and kill yourself if you want anyway, sure kids practically raise themselves these days".....

I'm genuinely baffled that people have a problem suggesting that suicide will hurt the family and friends left behind to pick up the pieces. If that stops even one person from committing suicide then the strategy has already worked.

How about if it stopped one person from committing suicide and helps nudge 2 people towards doing it?

Whitewinged

Boring username wrote: »

Realistically, what would you prefer someone said to a suicidal person?

"You just go ahead and kill yourself if you want anyway, sure kids practically raise themselves these days".....

I'm genuinely baffled that people have a problem suggesting that suicide will hurt the family and friends left behind to pick up the pieces. If that stops even one person from committing suicide then the strategy has already worked.

Yea i thought it was just another way of saying that people care and wouldnt want the person to go through with it rather than shaming but i suppose people can interpret things differently.

sashafierce

This post has been deleted.

darkpagandeath

Was sudden death not used so you could be buried in the church grounds Religion and all that. Otherwise it was outside consecrated ground if death by Suicide.

seenitall

Tarzana2 wrote: »

Not at all. You don't know the amount of times the last few months that I have been a massive bitch to those who love me. Today for example, I had a huge row with my mother because I want to take a chemo break so that I can go out for a big meal next Thursday. And I'm not very gracious much of time. I won't be a poster girl for advanced cancer sadly.

I read somewhere that irritability is one of the regular 'side-effects' with people facing dangerous situations.

Put it this way, if you deluded yourself and told yourself that anyway, everything is going to be hunky dory in your future, you would perhaps be a more pleasant person to be around.

However, since you're facing up to that fcuker C and not burying your head in the sand, you are drawing on your courage reserves mightily. IMO courage doesn't mean the absence of fear, it means facing the fear. Having to do it on a daily, continuous basis is bound to make anyone irritable!

I'm sure that your nearest and dearest understand.

seamus

Boring username wrote: »

Realistically, what would you prefer someone said to a suicidal person?

What people need to hear varies from person to person.

But often it's a simple acknowledgement of the person themselves, of their feelings and their existence.

"Your mother will never recover if you kill yourself", is not acknowledging the person themselves. You're defining their mother's feelings as being more important than the suicidal person's existence. Rather than worrying about the suicidal person, you're worrying about their mother. Effectively confirming their belief that nobody cares about them at all and their feelings don't matter.

Imagine a student being told, "Your mother will be very disappointed if you do arts rather than law". They don't hear, "Your mother loves you and wants what's best for you". They hear, "Put your mother's feelings above your own and make her happy even if it makes you unhappy".

That's exactly what a suicidal person hears when you tell them that their death will make other people sad; "Cop onto yourself and think of others".

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There are, but depression is one of the few things we know to be strongly linked to suicide and suicidal ideation. So it makes sense to start there.

The whole area is still very underresearched for various reasons, not least because you can't ask a dead person what was going through their mind when they killed themselves.

whatismyname

Deleted User wrote: »

Read here to get more information on why suicide is reported in the media the way in which it is.

It's not to make it taboo - not in the slightest.

http://www.samaritans.org/your-community/samaritans-work-ireland/media-guidelines-ireland

Thanks Whoops. Was reading through and just about to post those.