captainspeed wrote: » Well when they were in power and the country was awash with money, they did nothing.
zulutango wrote: » Paranoia aside, it isn't really beyond the bounds of possibility that a motorway between Cork and Limerick would be a serious economic threat to various vested interests, some within those two cities.
captainspeed wrote: » Well when they were in power and the country was awash with money, they did nothing. I genuinely cannot understand what the logic is in not even providing money for re-doing the planning. Maybe (hopefully?) there will be some sort of announcement before the election, it's almost as if they don't want votes in Cork, though I suppose they will argue that Cork is getting four schemes (Dunkettle, M28, Macroom/Ballyvourney and Mallow relief road). I'd gladly have lost the Mallow relief road for doing something about the M20 instead. I'm 27 at the moment and at this rate I'll be lucky if it's done by the time I'm 40 .
swoofer wrote: » a motorway to limerick and cork could impact greatly on dublin, they are not stupid.
spacetweek wrote: Economic investment is not zero sum. Investing in cork or Limerick does not take anything away from Dublin.
zulutango wrote: » True, but do you think the people making the decisions appreciate that?
spacetweek wrote: » They are not as stupid as you think so yes.
spacetweek wrote: » The big mistake made with the M20 was creating a big 1Billion mega project that seems too big to ever receive funding in a single year when there is such a large backlog of other schemes nationwide. It needs to be split up.
zulutango wrote: » Minister O'Donohoe is blessed with extraordinary intelligence.
hans aus dtschl wrote: » Guys, quick question (and possibly another topic), but would it be a bad idea to improve the Cork-Limerick link by upgrading either the R513 or R517/512/518? North of Charleville to Mitchelstown. You could do it pretty cheaply and you could take some of the traffic off the N20, particularly relieving traffic during crashes etc. I know the two cities need a motorway link, but I'm trying to be constructive.
marno21 wrote: Discussed at length (and I mean length) recently here, read back a few pages as to why it's not feasable.
zulutango wrote: » I don't recall seeing good reasons why it shouldn't go that way. Plenty of people obsessed with the N20 route though because that's what they know.
KCAccidental wrote: » 3) as an interurban alone, cork-limerick doesn't justify a motorway. The intermediate traffic between the towns enroute make it viable.
Irish_rat wrote: » I think FF would build this if they were in power.
Missyelliot2 wrote: » Are you falling around the place laughing at this suggestion? (everybody else is........)
jgbyr wrote: » Yep, came through there this morning & it took around 15 minutes. All one side is dug up & they haven't touched the other side yet.
KCAccidental wrote: » some reasons mentioned 1) doesn't deal with commuting traffic between Cork City and North Cork and North Cork to Limerick. 2) routing it through mitchelstown dumps even more traffic on to the dunkettle interchange. Without North ring road it will cause delays 3) as an interurban alone, cork-limerick doesn't justify a motorway. The intermediate traffic between the towns enroute make it viable.
hans aus dtschl wrote: » Fair call, I was just skimming, apologies. Edit: also just to note, I am of the opinion that the M20 needs to be done ASAP, but was asking whether improvements on neighbouring routes would help alleviate congestion while we wait. Clearly that's a "no"!
spacetweek wrote: » OK here's a bit more detail: Disadvantages to building an M20 from Limerick to Mitchelstown: - Existing N20 between Mallow and Cork needs rebuilding as motorway anyway - this isn't true as the bulk of traffic would be diverted off the road and the remaining volumes certainly wouldn't justify the construction of a motorway standard road. - Existing N20 between Mallow and Croom is so bad that a new road is needed anyway - this is true. The current state is very bad, but that doesn't mean a full scale motorway is needed, especially if you're diverting most of the traffic current traffic onto another route. - Would go over mountains - not if the N24 is the alternative route. Seems to make most sense to me. - Would necessitate the widening of M8 from Mitchelstown to Cork to 6 lanes - is that certain, given the volumes that would be using it? I don't think so. - Would dump all Dublin and Limerick traffic into Cork at Dunkettle which is a very congested area - yes, this is certainly true, but then again you'd be linking up with the southern ring road rather than feeding a motorway directly into Cork. Or does the M20 plan include a northern ring? Advantage: - It's shorter and cheaper, but the idea isn't to do the cheapest thing.- It's also possibly the most sensible option as it would provide a substantial link between the West and the Waterford as well as Cork
The Traffic section of the Pre-Feasibility report included the following : o The study made use of existing traffic data only. Existing data compiled comprised Automatic Traffic Count Data from NRA, Roadside Interview (RSI) Survey data, Manual Classified Counts and NRA estimated counts along the N20 and N8. o RSI data was used to construct trip matrices to summarise traffic demand on the N20, N72, N8 and N24 routes. Data was coded to a system of 21 zones that allows the capture of movements to and from key settlements within the study area. o From this data the study built a likelihood matrix for each corridor option. If a trip is likely to use the corridor a digit „1‟ is placed, and the same with a figure „0‟ in the case of not using this corridor. The sum of results from this likelihood matrix is applied to the total volumes for every pair to get the forecast of use of every corridor. In the case that both options are equally likely for a particular trip, a figure „1‟ is placed in both matrices, indicating that it could be captured by both options. o Traffic volumes along the N20 are shown in the study. Traffic varies from near 25,000 vehicles AADT near Cork, around 17,000 between Cork and Mallow, near 20,000 in Mallow at the N72 intersection, 10,000 to 11,000 between Mallow and Croom, and near 15,000 between Croom and Limerick. Around Limerick volumes are about 25,000. HCV traffic remains relatively constant along the length of the corridor, with a percentage that varies between 7 & 14%; the highest (14%) is between Cork and Mallow. This study concludes that for long distance traffic either corridor option could be used based on similar route distances. This is not the same for short and medium distance traffic movements. In this case the Eastern Corridor would not attract significant volumes of traffic, as it does not pass through any of the key locations of population, industry or employment, such as Mallow, Charleville, Buttevant, Croom, Patrickswell and Blarney. The study also showed that only a relatively small proportion of the existing traffic on the N20 is travelling the full distance between Cork and Limerick or beyond. The analysis done on the N24 also suggested that almost none of this traffic travels beyond Tipperary. To summarise the potential attraction for vehicles from the N20, the study provides a table which indicates that only about 2,100 vehicles would be transferred to the Eastern Corridor, and concludes that the majority of traffic using the existing N20 (Western Corridor) will still use it or an improved version. The additional information gathered as part of traffic study for the M20 scheme reinforces the recommendations of the Pre-Feasibility Study in the following aspects: - Strategic “Long distance” trips along the N20 route are between 20 to 30% of total flows. Therefore remaining flows consisting of a minimum of around 8,000 vehicles and a maximum of 14,000 vehicles that would not be captured by a potential Eastern Corridor. - Local and Commuter trips are very significant along the N20 route. In particular, traffic from Mallow to Cork is very important, reaching volumes above 8,000 vehicles per day (adding flows not only between these two main cities but traffic that is generated by intermediate zones inside that section). This volume would not be captured by the Eastern Corridor. - The Western Corridor option still provides for the strategic long distance trips and provides a necessary upgrade to the existing N20 route to cater for significant traffic flows into the future. We conclude that the recommendations of the Pre-Feasibility Report were correct and the Western Corridor should be pursued as the route for the Atlantic Corridor.
spacetweek wrote: » I think whether we have a Dublin First or Regions First is very questionable and depends on who you ask. I consider us to have a Regions First policy since all of the supposed investment in Dublin never actually happens. E.G. metro north was meant to start in 2000, 2006, 2012 and 2015 but has been repeatedly delayed because politicians are balking at the idea of spending that much money on Dublin when they could get greater political capital from spreading it around the country on smaller things.
hans aus dtschl wrote: » Well yes, but I'd guess the economy wasn't ever as heavily dependent on Dublin as it is now. There's a potential medium between "Regional-oriented" and "Dublin-oriented" strategies. That is, to focus on the other industrial regions of the country as a counterbalance to Dublin. It's never going to be Dublin V Ennis, but could potentially be Dublin V some combination of Cork/Limerick/Waterford/Galway. We're really into politics and economics here and way off-topic, but if you do work around the country or travel around the country regularly, you'll know that there's currently a trickle-down-from-Dublin approach. Multinationals complain about lack of infrastructure/broadband/utilities in the other industrial regions, compared with Dublin, making them struggle to locate outside Dublin. We currently don't take the other industrial areas seriously. You'd think the majority of our population or majority of our economy was based within Dublin, but the truth is that counterbalances as I mentioned above could be viable, but they're currently not being pursued. And I'll add that that's to Dublin's detriment too. It's not in Dublin's interest that unproductive areas be created elsewhere to be fed from Dublin's teat, but that's where it's currently going. Anyway, back on track, it should never be a discussion on Metro North OR M20. We're already going down the wrong road if we're discussing that. I'm not blaming you whatsoever, by the way, just saying we all know it's the wrong way to think of it.
