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DART+ (DART Expansion)

murphaph

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

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McAlban

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm older than those plans!

And yet very little of it is acheived... Nice to see that Dart Phase 1 is now complete however, and even extended to Malahide and Greystones.

Grandeeod

McAlban wrote: »

Just to remind you all... The original plans for DART...

I'm older than those plans!

brownbeard

I reckon if Dublin had a directly elected mayor, he/she/it would be a lightening rod for flak about ditching projects like this. Transport infrastructure would be their greatest responsibility and they would have a remit and a mandate to fight for these kinds of projects as opposed to funds getting diverted to more rural, political causes.

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

Also given that they were able to upgrade the 3000 class from 30 meters to 40 meters shows excellent forward planning and utilisation by the RPA. Compare that to the disaster that the Irish Rail 8200 series DARTS were!

That story is not as smooth as you would like to think.

Before the Red line opened for business with 30 metre trams, it was pointed out to the RPA that 40 metre trams would be more suited to the line. (The platforms were designed for them) Their answer was that the 30 metre trams would run more frequently and this would suffice. The RPA were challenged in the media about this and reacted in a very aggressive/defensive fashion, while completely failing to admit the obvious. Then, under the radar the extensions were ordered. It wasn't forward planning. It was a balls up that they didn't want to admit to and could easily fix because the unit was an off the shelf design.

Don't be under any allusions that the RPA are somehow superior to the CIE group. A lot of the luas team were ex CIE staff and the tram units were ordered before the creation of the RPA.

McAlban

Just to remind you all... The original plans for DART...

lxflyer wrote: »

It's very easy to be popular when you run a simple system of two lines, and which only requires the use of 47 trams each day out of a total fleet of 66 trams.

Actually I have to question your numbers here, where does the 47 come from?

Reading up on it, they have 66 trams in total:

26 Citadis 301 (3000 class - 40m)
14 Citadis 401 (4000 class - 40m)
26 Citadis 402 (5000 class - 43m)

The 26 5000 class were ordered in 2009, well into the recession, so clearly they wouldn't have ordered those unless they were actually needed!

They were put on the green line and the 4000 series cascaded onto the Red Line.

They have now placed an order for 10 new trams for Luas Cross City. Why would they order so many new trams if there are older ones sitting there unused?

Obviously you need to have some spear trams for when other are taken out for repairs. But I can't see them ordering 10 new ones if there were so many gonig unused.

Also given that they were able to upgrade the 3000 class from 30 meters to 40 meters shows excellent forward planning and utilisation by the RPA. Compare that to the disaster that the Irish Rail 8200 series DARTS were!

And just as I write this I see news on RTE that talks with the Irish Rail unions have broken down and they are yet again threatening strike!!!

No one both the public and government have lost all faith in Irish Rail.

BTW this all frustrates me, as I think Dart Underground is an extremely important project. But I believe as long as it is tarnished by the Irish Rail brand, it will never happen.

Lenton Lane

Grandeeod wrote: »

So this is where we are at, as of 2015.

DU - floating around in various guises for over 40 years. I don't have the expenditure figures since its current variation surfaced nearly 15 years ago.

MN - 156 million quid later, its gone off the radar and we are about to enter the traditional, "let's do something else instead" phase in North Dublin that will take years to bring to the planning stage and trust me, it won't be built either.

I witnessed a lot of anger here today similar, but not as vicious, as the anger I have expressed here and on other threads/forums. I hope those who crossed my path in discussion, can appreciate how utterly despondent one can become with all this BS.

Sadly with no specific independent lobby group representing projects such as DU or MN and Public Transport projects in Dublin, the media do as they please and the politicians get away with talking crap and not being held accountable. Emailing TDs with a Joe Duffy type of complaint achieves nothing. I say that with the greatest respect for those who do so. But going head to head with them in the media is a far better option and keeps issues highlighted. In the noughties, it was easy, because they were promising everything. For example, even Irish Rails Barry Kenny insisted stuff would get done, despite an alternative view, backed up by legitimate facts, that it wouldn't.

But now is a time that a real alternative voice is needed.

Nail on head. Remember the DTTAS have not got any policy on Rail. When you consider that fact the pantomime over rails to Dublin Airport begins to make sense.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

It's very easy to be popular when you run a simple system of two lines, and which only requires the use of 47 trams each day out of a total fleet of 66 trams.

Politics is about optics. Luas looks good. The detail about why they look good or if they're actually good at all is totally irrelevant when it comes to politicians deciding where money should be spent.

Grandeeod

So this is where we are at, as of 2015.

DU - floating around in various guises for over 40 years. I don't have the expenditure figures since its current variation surfaced nearly 15 years ago.

MN - 156 million quid later, its gone off the radar and we are about to enter the traditional, "let's do something else instead" phase in North Dublin that will take years to bring to the planning stage and trust me, it won't be built either.

I witnessed a lot of anger here today similar, but not as vicious, as the anger I have expressed here and on other threads/forums. I hope those who crossed my path in discussion, can appreciate how utterly despondent one can become with all this BS.

Sadly with no specific independent lobby group representing projects such as DU or MN and Public Transport projects in Dublin, the media do as they please and the politicians get away with talking crap and not being held accountable. Emailing TDs with a Joe Duffy type of complaint achieves nothing. I say that with the greatest respect for those who do so. But going head to head with them in the media is a far better option and keeps issues highlighted. In the noughties, it was easy, because they were promising everything. For example, even Irish Rails Barry Kenny insisted stuff would get done, despite an alternative view, backed up by legitimate facts, that it wouldn't.

But now is a time that a real alternative voice is needed.

lxflyer wrote: »

It's very easy to be popular when you run a simple system of two lines, and which only requires the use of 47 trams each day out of a total fleet of 66 trams.

And yet those few Luas lines and trams carry twice as many passengers every day as DART and not far off the entire Irish Rail fleet!

In fact I expect Luas will carry more passengers then the entire Irish Rail fleet once Luas BXD opens and certainly will if it is extended to the airport.

I wonder if LUAS would be so popular if serious questions were asked about the volume of trams sitting around doing nothing every day and which have been for some time?

Really? You want to ask that question given Irish Rails HORRIBLE history of buying carriages? Mark 3's scrapped well before their end of life. Large numbers of Mark 4 trains, ICR's, DART carriages in storage for years. The DART carriages that should never have been accepted and left to rout. All the issues they have had with engines.

Waste on an EPIC scale!!

To get back to answering your question, I bet most people couldn't care less. All they know is the service delivered is excellent and it is run at a profit.

And as you say the trams will be used for LUAS BXD. Honestly if this is the only negative thing you can think of about Luas, then it just goes to show how successful it has been.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Irish people don't care about public transport and people outside Dublin don't (as a stereotype) like to see billions getting spent in Dublin.

DART/Irish Rail have a poor image which makes investing billions in DU very unpalatable.

Luas has a good image but people in Dublin don't believe that metro/underground systems are needed for Dublin because it's too small which is what killed Metro North.

For these reasons alone, why would any politician decide to invest in MN or DU?

bk wrote: »

Excellent, summary, even within Dublin, amongst the public transport using public, Irish Rail has a bad image.

Hell even the government doesn't trust Irish Rail/CIE, it is pretty damning that they took the original LUAS design out of Irish Rail and created the independent RPA to design and run it.

I think it might be a good idea for everyone if DART was taken off of Irish Rail and given to the RPA to run! I know that would be messy, due to lots of Irish Rail staff involved + Irish Rail stations and tracks. But it might help separate DART from the damaged Irish Rail brand and give it a new lease of life. This might make it easier to get DART Underground approved in future as a "LUAS" * project.

* Yes, yes I know LUAS is light rail, DART is heavy rail, etc. but it is more of a brand image thing.

If you were to do this before the new, higher frequency DART timetable came in, it would help greatly in creating a better image for DART.

BTW I also think it would have been better if they had called Metro North, Luas North instead. Emphasis that it is a Luas type project and demphasise the underground parts. I mean still have it as exactly the same spec as Metro North, but just sell it as another Luas line, that just happens to run underground at certain points as a relatively minor detail. I think it would have much easier to sell it to the public and politicians then and it could have distanced itself from the image of an expensive underground project that DU portrayed itself as.

See the F18 Superhornet and DOCSIS 3.1 as excellent examples of marketing massive projects as "minor" upgrades to sneak past Congress, cable companies, etc.

Actually a lot of my Polish friends have recently been getting their Irish citizenship, having been here more then 5 years. I think they have a very different opinion, a more Germanic outlook on infrastructure and European style apartment living and public transport. I think eventually that will have an influence on the politicians.

It's very easy to be popular when you run a simple system of two lines, and which only requires the use of 47 trams each day out of a total fleet of 66 trams.

I wonder if LUAS would be so popular if serious questions were asked about the volume of trams sitting around doing nothing every day and which have been for some time?

Sure they will be pressed into use in 2017, but they were bought when money was not cheap.

monument

lateconnection wrote: »

When will we have the official confirmation from the government on whether DU is going ahead or not?

Soon now... Maybe unless there is notable opposition?

D.L.R.

What a backward country. Terrible stuff. Rather build empty motorways down the bog. Moronic.

markpb wrote: »

DART/Irish Rail have a poor image which makes investing billions in DU very unpalatable.

Luas has a good image but people in Dublin don't believe that metro/underground systems are needed for Dublin because it's too small which is what killed Metro North.

Excellent, summary, even within Dublin, amongst the public transport using public, Irish Rail has a bad image.

Hell even the government doesn't trust Irish Rail/CIE, it is pretty damning that they took the original LUAS design out of Irish Rail and created the independent RPA to design and run it.

I think it might be a good idea for everyone if DART was taken off of Irish Rail and given to the RPA to run! I know that would be messy, due to lots of Irish Rail staff involved + Irish Rail stations and tracks. But it might help separate DART from the damaged Irish Rail brand and give it a new lease of life. This might make it easier to get DART Underground approved in future as a "LUAS" * project.

* Yes, yes I know LUAS is light rail, DART is heavy rail, etc. but it is more of a brand image thing.

If you were to do this before the new, higher frequency DART timetable came in, it would help greatly in creating a better image for DART.

BTW I also think it would have been better if they had called Metro North, Luas North instead. Emphasis that it is a Luas type project and demphasise the underground parts. I mean still have it as exactly the same spec as Metro North, but just sell it as another Luas line, that just happens to run underground at certain points as a relatively minor detail. I think it would have much easier to sell it to the public and politicians then and it could have distanced itself from the image of an expensive underground project that DU portrayed itself as.

See the F18 Superhornet and DOCSIS 3.1 as excellent examples of marketing massive projects as "minor" upgrades to sneak past Congress, cable companies, etc.

munchkin_utd wrote: »

(and is essentially why emmigrants will never get the vote, as they'd just stupidly vote for someone looking to make ireland better through specific policies rather than because they met them once for 2 seconds at a funeral - and indeed thats a bit off topic, but relevant nevertheless in demonstrating what a sham the political system is in Ireland and why DU isnt going ahead)

Actually a lot of my Polish friends have recently been getting their Irish citizenship, having been here more then 5 years. I think they have a very different opinion, a more Germanic outlook on infrastructure and European style apartment living and public transport. I think eventually that will have an influence on the politicians.

VeryOwl

Van.Bosch wrote: »

I wouldnt rule BRT out yet, issues tunneling under a cemetary may need a rethink in 2018, then a new consultation may recommend BRT in 2020.

The "consultation" will recommend whatever the government wanted to build in the first place. It was obvious from ages ago that this shabby Luas was the only option being considered seriously.

If it really did come down to he could only have one project then it all fits together perfectly. It goes through his constituency.

Van.Bosch

hardy_buck wrote: »

I've seen this from 2 different, rival sources (Times and Indo) not to mention that rag "The Mail on sunday", It's all but confirmed at this stage. Officially, I believe, it will be announced in the capital expenditure program next week.

Looking back it was obvious that they were lining this rubbish up with the Fingal/Nth.Dublin transport study. If there's scant consolation, at least it's not BRT I guess....

I wouldnt rule BRT out yet, issues tunneling under a cemetary may need a rethink in 2018, then a new consultation may recommend BRT in 2020.

Grandeeod

McAlban wrote: »

Oh But there is... Homeless Crisis, Unemployment, Investment in the Arts, and quite possibly, most importantly, that giant money pit the HSE.

I am not forgetting that any whiff of extra money for Transport will get Dermot O'Leary in a hot sweat over pay raises.

You are right, but it's still wrong.

hardy_buck

lateconnection wrote: »

When will we have the official confirmation from the government on whether DU is going ahead or not?

I've seen this from 2 different, rival sources (Times and Indo) not to mention that rag "The Mail on sunday", It's all but confirmed at this stage. Officially, I believe, it will be announced in the capital expenditure program next week.

Looking back it was obvious that they were lining this rubbish up with the Fingal/Nth.Dublin transport study. If there's scant consolation, at least it's not BRT I guess....

lateconnection

When will we have the official confirmation from the government on whether DU is going ahead or not?

[Deleted User]

jd wrote: »

Catherine Murphy and Rosisin Shortall too, I'd say
https://twitter.com/CathMurphyTD/status/641176489682202624

She is the same person that wants no water taxes and increases in social welfare and freebies for everybody. Very easy for her to be for everything. We have way too many idiots like her already that are afraid to make any hard decisions that would cost votes.

The Dart underground should go ahead but the government should explain what cuts or taxes are needed to fund it.

If people are so for it in Dublin why not cancel the next march against water infrastructure and march for Dublin underground and Metro North instead. It would make alot more sense locally and the government might actually listen. I don't think too many would attend as it wouldn't benefit them financially and there would be no bandwagon for the hypocrite politicians like Murphy to jump on.

Van.Bosch

MICKEYG wrote: »

Is there any way the head of the NTA or RPA can come out and say that this is a mistake?
Surely that person would see this as a resigning issue. A government trampling all over a well researched and game changing solution to public transport to win votes.

I suspect that they will be happy to have any project to work on to be honest.

McAlban

Ren2k7 wrote: »

There's every reason to justify the spending. Dublin is the main engine of growth in Ireland, so what's good for the capital is good for the nation. I don't even live in Dublin but am able to understand this very basic fact.

With a growing economy again and increased tax receipts there's no reason why DU couldn't get the go ahead along with a road building programme spread over the next ten years. The National budget for this year is €53 billion, of which 3.6 billion is capital spending. There's no reason why some spending, say 1 billion couldn't be moved from the current account to the capital account, that would still leave close to 50 billion for things like PS pay and Social Welfare, a drop in the ocean. After four years 4 billion would be collected for DU. There's no justification for not proceeding with DU, absolutely none.

Oh But there is... Homeless Crisis, Unemployment, Investment in the Arts, and quite possibly, most importantly, that giant money pit the HSE.

I am not forgetting that any whiff of extra money for Transport will get Dermot O'Leary in a hot sweat over pay raises.

MICKEYG

Is there any way the head of the NTA or RPA can come out and say that this is a mistake?
Surely that person would see this as a resigning issue. A government trampling all over a well researched and game changing solution to public transport to win votes.

Ren2k7

munchkin_utd wrote: »

well, kind of, but it does cost 4billion and its very hard to justify spending that massive sum and then tell every corner of Ireland that their bypass/ road improvement/ hospital ward wont be built as it cant be afforded.

Theres also the fact that Irish rail have heaps of new diesel rail cars (some unused IIRC) so the logic in electrifying Kildare to Drogheda, and ordering a new fleet of electric trainsets to replace a new fleet of diesels is hard to justify.

There's every reason to justify the spending. Dublin is the main engine of growth in Ireland, so what's good for the capital is good for the nation. I don't even live in Dublin but am able to understand this very basic fact.

With a growing economy again and increased tax receipts there's no reason why DU couldn't get the go ahead along with a road building programme spread over the next ten years. The National budget for this year is €53 billion, of which 3.6 billion is capital spending. There's no reason why some spending, say 1 billion couldn't be moved from the current account to the capital account, that would still leave close to 50 billion for things like PS pay and Social Welfare, a drop in the ocean. After four years 4 billion would be collected for DU. There's no justification for not proceeding with DU, absolutely none.

cgcsb

munchkin_utd wrote: »

well, kind of, but it does cost 4billion and its very hard to justify spending that massive sum and then tell every corner of Ireland that their bypass/ road improvement/ hospital ward wont be built as it cant be afforded.

Theres also the fact that Irish rail have heaps of new diesel rail cars (some unused IIRC) so the logic in electrifying Kildare to Drogheda, and ordering a new fleet of electric trainsets to replace a new fleet of diesels is hard to justify.

It won't cost €4bn today or tomorrow, it only requires €200m next year to secure the CPOs. A fraction of the spending on the M17 between the great metropoli of Gort and Tuam. There are PLENTY of other uses for diesel locos.

cgcsb

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Luke Ming Flanagan has an insight into how to get elected, after he managed it.

He was amazed that the most important thing was shaking hands and making a personal appearance in as many places as possible.
People in Ireland vote for you more because they think you are sound/ they recognise you than for what you actually believe or promise.

Crazy stuff, but its true
(and is essentially why emmigrants will never get the vote, as they'd just stupidly vote for someone looking to make ireland better through specific policies rather than because they met them once for 2 seconds at a funeral - and indeed thats a bit off topic, but relevant nevertheless in demonstrating what a sham the political system is in Ireland and why DU isnt going ahead)

People vote for worse reasons than that in Ireland. People actually vote depending on what side grandaddy fought on in the civil war, as if that has any relevance in 2015. Smart people leave for more advanced nations and the cycle continues.

munchkin_utd

Ren2k7 wrote: »

This only proves how unfit for government FG really are.

well, kind of, but it does cost 4billion and its very hard to justify spending that massive sum and then tell every corner of Ireland that their bypass/ road improvement/ hospital ward wont be built as it cant be afforded.

Theres also the fact that Irish rail have heaps of new diesel rail cars (some unused IIRC) so the logic in electrifying Kildare to Drogheda, and ordering a new fleet of electric trainsets to replace a new fleet of diesels is hard to justify.

VeryOwl

Idbatterim wrote: »

yeah I totally agree, this is a criminal level of incompetence, all they have to say is, it needs to be done properly and we cant afford to do it now...

I thought they did an ok job on the economy, but the whole package simply isn't good enough...

Our shambolic opposition haven't helped matters either. That's what's so depressing, there is no party that actually cares about delivering on long term plans.

This was marked "cancelled" in my head years ago, and the PPT all but confirmed it, but it's still disappointing to see it for real, knowing the implications for our capital's transport.

Idbatterim

This only proves how unfit for government FG really are.

yeah I totally agree, this is a criminal level of incompetence, all they have to say is, it needs to be done properly and we cant afford to do it now...

I thought they did an ok job on the economy, but the whole package simply isn't good enough...

Ren2k7

This only proves how unfit for government FG really are.