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Phoenix Park tunnel: 4 trains per hour from 2016

Lenton Lane

In today's Herald, can someone post up a link?

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Vic_08

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd imagine about 6 minutes from Islandbridge Junction to Glasnevin Junction, and then roughly 15 minutes from there to get around to Grand Canal Dock (as per the current journey time for Maynooth services).

So about 20 minutes in total.

That sounds about right.

It is 4.7 miles from Islandbridge Jn to Connolly and AFAIR it is 30mph with 20 over the junctions so 10-12mns for that and 8-9mns Connolly to GCD.

Spanish Eyes

bikeman1 wrote: »

I would expect with good planning the following times would be achievable:

Islandbridge Junction 0 minutes
Drumcondra 7 minutes
Connolly 11 minutes
Tara St 14 minutes
Pearse 16 minutes
Grand Canal 18 minutes

I have made this journey many times over the years on specials with a variety of traction steam 461, to 121s to 071s. It is surprisingly fast even with the current slow line speed. With an enhanced line speed the above timings should be possible.

Whilst not having a stop at Heuston is regrettable, it should make the journey time even more attractive.

Another new journey option opening up from this will be a fast way to the airport. Hop off at Drumcondra and you can be in the airport within 20 minutes. 41 bus, aircoach. Taxi between 3 or 4 would be reasonable as well.

That all sounds good. Great to hear a bit of positive optimism.

The LUAS would take that long to get to Connolly anyway, and then to get to GCD another transfer is needed.

All sounds good. The airport option is interesting too!

Thrashssacre

Given that it says in the Irish rail article that theres scope for expansion of services how many passengers using the service would they deem a success? More then the commuter service from portlaois to heuston or would we need too see full train loads before and expansion of services is done?

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

That all sounds good. Great to hear a bit of positive optimism.

The LUAS would take that long to get to Connolly anyway, and then to get to GCD another transfer is needed.

All sounds good. The airport option is interesting too!

Bear in mind that Heuston is about 2 minutes from Islandbridge Junction as well, and that you'd need to factor in walking to the LUAS.

elastico

Could we see passengers from Limerick, Cork etc. change at Portlaoise, Kildare etc. for connections through to city centre?

D.L.R.

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Given that it says in the Irish rail article that theres scope for expansion of services how many passengers using the service would they deem a success? More then the commuter service from portlaois to heuston or would we need too see full train loads before and expansion of services is done?

They'll be splitting the services 50/50 between Heuston and the City Centre, so you'd expect they want half the passengers to use it. Seems likely they'll get more than half, but we'll see.

A knock on advantage to this will be the removal of thousands of passengers from the red line daily.

elastico wrote: »

Could we see passengers from Limerick, Cork etc. change at Portlaoise, Kildare etc. for connections through to city centre?

Yes but it would mean taking a slower train between Portlaoise-Dublin. An interchange closer to Dublin would be more attractive - Cherry Orchard say. It would have to be a quick connection though to be worth it - 15 mins tops. That's the tricky part.

cgcsb

Indeed it is a much needed relief for the red line and the buses that use the north quays. You can't get standing room on either.

Markcheese

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Total random comment here but I think its rather pathetic that a TD (now minister) from a party, which has been in successive governments since the foundation of the state that has done very little but preside over the destruction of railways in this country, should turn up for a photo op in front of a Victorian tunnel as if its some major investment in rail infrastructure in the capital city.

It was built by the British before his great grand father was born. It was probably one of the last major rail infrastructure investments in this country and it was installed while we were a colony. He and his colleagues cant manage to connect an airport, moving in excess of 21 million passengers a year, 6 miles away from it to Dublin city centre yet he turns up for this. They should have flung rocks at him.

Would this be on the- all public representatives should be shot for crimes they may commit / ommit in the future ? And anyone who tries to fix a balls up in Ireland will be blamed for that balls up -

LXFlyer

D.L.R. wrote: »

They'll be splitting the services 50/50 between Heuston and the City Centre, so you'd expect they want half the passengers to use it. Seems likely they'll get more than half, but we'll see.

A knock on advantage to this will be the removal of thousands of passengers from the red line daily.

Yes but it would mean taking a slower train between Portlaoise-Dublin. An interchange closer to Dublin would be more attractive - Cherry Orchard say. It would have to be a quick connection though to be worth it - 15 mins tops. That's the tricky part.

I think 50/50 is a bit strong.

There will be one train an hour off-peak to Grand Canal Dock and two an hour at peak times.

The majority of trains will still serve Heuston.

Jamie2k9

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd imagine about 6 minutes from Islandbridge Junction to Glasnevin Junction, and then roughly 15 minutes from there to get around to Grand Canal Dock (as per the current journey time for Maynooth services).

So about 20 minutes in total.

How much padding would be in that, we know most mornings there is disruption though Connolly to City Center and it can't be allowed to spill over to Heuston.

Would think IE will go for 23-25 minutes to be safe, the current Portlaoise shuttle can allow up to 10 minute delays between Park West and Heuston.

D.L.R.

lxflyer wrote: »

I think 50/50 is a bit strong.

There will be one train an hour off-peak to Grand Canal Dock and two an hour at peak times.

The majority of trains will still serve Heuston.

You're right, I meant 50/50 during the peak. They'll have to monitor uptake closely and see what works, bit of a balancing act.

LXFlyer

D.L.R. wrote: »

You're right, I meant 50/50 during the peak. They'll have to monitor uptake closely and see what works, bit of a balancing act.

Even at peak times the vast majority of trains on the Kildare Line will still serve Heuston. There are more than two trains an hour as it is!!

Thrashssacre

lxflyer wrote: »

Even at peak times the vast majority of trains on the Kildare Line will still serve Heuston.

I think he may just be referrering to the portlaois to heuston v the kildare to grand canal docks

LXFlyer

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I think he may just be referrering to the portlaois to heuston v the kildare to grand canal docks

Look at the timetable. There are more than two stopping trains an hour during the morning peak on the line as it is. That's my point.

This is a very modest but welcome improvement, but we need to keep a sense of perspective.

alias no.9

D.L.R. wrote: »

They'll be splitting the services 50/50 between Heuston and the City Centre, so you'd expect they want half the passengers to use it. Seems likely they'll get more than half, but we'll see.

If the passengers are split 50:50 on their choice of Heuston/Connolly, it's very unlikely they're split on the basis of every second train and much more likely they're split on the basis of the passengers on each train. What you're really doing with this is pissing off half of the passengers on every train.

Splitting the service leaving Dublin is a complete pain in the hole. If you get delayed and miss your train by just a minute, you now have double the wait to the next train or travel to the other station. This is the biggest failing of the project, without an increase in services it'll make the overall service worse, certainly for anybody travelling anywhere short of Sallins.

You'll need a different mode of transport anyway to get to the alternative station to get the next service out of Dublin, if you're travelling to any of the stations within the 4 tracked KRP zone why not just make that mode of transport the bus and take it all the way home?

Frequency of service (or lack thereof) is already dissuading potential passengers in the KRP stations, this will make it worse. That's a lot of money on new stations which become even more redundant until Dart Underground arrives.

elastico

I suppose a covered travelator linking to Heuston main platform would be a good addition.

Thrashssacre

lxflyer wrote: »

Look at the timetable. There are more than two stopping trains an hour during the morning peak on the line as it is. That's my point.

This is a very modest but welcome improvement, but we need to keep a sense of perspective.

The portlaois stopping train seams too be once an hour (give or take) off peak and 2 an hour at morning and evening peak which is what is proposed for the new service.

Hopefully they can timetable it so that the stations after kildare will have a service every half an hour towards either heuston or grand canal docks and every 15 minuites on peak it will be a lot more of a turn up and go service which can hopefully improve patronage for adamstown, clondalkin and too a lesser extent parkwest as they are quite underused for the size of population they serve

LXFlyer

elastico wrote: »

I suppose a covered travelator linking to Heuston main platform would be a good addition.

It's over 750m away - that is totally unrealistic.

LXFlyer

Thrashssacre wrote: »

The portlaois stopping train seams too be once an hour (give or take) off peak and 2 an hour at morning and evening peak which is what is proposed for the new service.

Hopefully they can timetable it so that for station after kildare will have a service every half an hour towards either heuston or grand canal docks and every 15 minuites on peak it will be a lot more of a turn up and go service which can hopefully improve patronage for adamstown, clondalkin and too a lesser extent parkwest as they are quite underused for the size of population they serve

Again look at the timetable.

Plenty of other trains stop between Kildare and Heuston during peak times - the Portlaoise trains are only one part of the service on that route.

Hence my comment that the peak weighting in terms of service will remain in favour of Heuston.

Jamie2k9

Hopefully they can timetable it so that the stations after kildare will have a service every half an hour towards either heuston or grand canal docks and every 15 minuites on peak it will be a lot more of a turn up and go service which can hopefully improve patronage for adamstown, clondalkin and too a lesser extent parkwest as they are quite underused for the size of population they serve

That is madness for such a service south of Kildare you need to find the population density to begin with.

Currently we have:
Monasterevin - at least once hourly
Portarlington - more less twice hourly (one express)
Portlaoise - more less twice hourly (one express)

Such service levels are more than adequate and will be for a long time.

Thrashssacre

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

That is madness for such a service south of Kildare you need to find the population density to begin with.

Currently we have:
Monasterevin - at least once hourly
Portarlington - more less twice hourly (one express)
Portlaoise - more less twice hourly (one express)

Such service levels are more than adequate and will be for a long time.

I ment after kildare towards heuston so celbridge, adamstown, clondalkin and parkwest sorry about any confusion

Jamie2k9

Thrashssacre wrote: »

I ment after kildare towards heuston so celbridge, adamstown, clondalkin and parkwest sorry about any confusion

Ok they already have an hourly service outside Newbridge/Nasss/Celbridge there is no need as they are like ghost stations even at peak hours. A lot of housing development in the area will have to take place first. It's really Dart Underground which is suitable for those stations.

Kildare/Newbridge also have a good number of express services as well as commuter.

Thrashssacre

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Ok they already have an hourly service outside Newbridge/Nasss/Celbridge there is no need as they are like ghost stations even at peak hours. A lot of housing development in the area will have to take place first. It's really Dart Underground which is suitable for those stations.

Kildare/Newbridge also have a good number of express services as well as commuter.

Ah I thought those stations were some of the busier ones on the line there's definitely people in those towns who use public transport as Dublin coach have been doing very well in those areas I wonder when the leap card is introduced in kildare will that improve the situation

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

It's over 750m away - that is totally unrealistic.

Dublin Airport's skybridge is not unrealistic.

cowboyjoe

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Ok they already have an hourly service outside Newbridge/Nasss/Celbridge there is no need as they are like ghost stations even at peak hours. A lot of housing development in the area will have to take place first. It's really Dart Underground which is suitable for those stations.

Kildare/Newbridge also have a good number of express services as well as commuter.

One of the main reasons these stations are like ghost stations is that the existing service only brings them as far as Heuston. So people opt to drive or get a slower bus service. Given a regular and decent train service to the south city stations, there are more than enough people willing to rail commute from these areas who would do so. Naas, Celbridge, Lucan, Adamstown, Clondalkin etc are all huge existing residential areas and a massive target market for this service.

Jamie2k9

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Ah I thought those stations were some of the busier ones on the line there's definitely people in those towns who use public transport as Dublin coach have been doing very well in those areas I wonder when the leap card in introduced in kildare will that improve the situation

Leap goes to Celbridge, the problem is most of the old stations were moved and paid for by developers so they lie in the middle of nowhere because of how the property market went.

Michael D Not Higgins

cgcsb wrote: »

Dublin Airport's skybridge is not unrealistic.

Apples and oranges. The skybridge is less than half the length of a walkway from Platform 10 to Heuston. It also cost millions but handles 10 million passengers a year.

alias no.9

cowboyjoe wrote: »

One of the main reasons these stations are like ghost stations is that the existing service only brings them as far as Heuston. So people opt to drive or get a slower bus service. Given a regular and decent train service to the south city stations, there are more than enough people willing to rail commute from these areas who would do so. Naas, Celbridge, Lucan, Adamstown, Clondalkin etc are all huge existing residential areas and a massive target market for this service.

Outside of about an hour in the morning inbound and about an hour in the evening outbound, these stations have on average one train an hour each direction.

Rather than the train only going to Heuston, it's the lack of frequency that's a killer, the Luas and 145 link Heuston with the CC nicely.

Miss a train, wait an hour, if you split the existing trains between Heuston and Connolly, outbound you miss a train, you wait two hours. If you miss the alternative bus, you're looking at a 15 or 20 minute wait.

Public transport modes are habitual. A couple of 50 minute waits for a train will see you switch to the bus very quickly and permanently. Even if the time on the bus is longer, the door to door time by train is worse most of the day.

[Deleted User]

lxflyer wrote: »

It's over 750m away - that is totally unrealistic.

Probably the best solution would be to use Park West as a transfer station for people who are on the "wrong" trains to change to go to/from the relevant Dublin station.
Some passengers will also want to stop at Heuston from the east coast lines as well, I personally know at least two who live by the Dart line and work near Heuston.

McAlban

Coming to this late. (I've always known I was a train infrastructure Nerd, but now I know there are others). I've had to trawl through the thread to make sure I'm not repeating people.

Bare with me for some Crayonism without the actual crayons. But some ideas for the long term future for the PPT line:

Aard wrote: »

Three things:

1. I hope they allow access to platform 10 from Clancy Quay, Conyngham Road, or St John's Road West. That way people from Islandbridge and Kilmainham will be able to use the new route without having to backtrack from the main entrance of Heuston.

Couldn't Agree more. The Clancy Barracks site (being developed as Clancy Quay for some reason) across from Platform 10 is still being redeveloped AFAIK. And there's about more than an acre there that I assume is owned by Irish Rail. So would it not be prudent to use Platform 10. Add a footbridge/accessible bridge and then sell this as access to the Phoenix Park (5 Minute walk to the Chapelizod Road Entrance). And also the residents of Clancy Quay. A Possible Islandbridge Station? I just can't figure our what the purpose of Platform 10 actually is? Where is it accessible from?

Also there's loads of space. c.12 Acres up in Cabra behind Carnlough Road. It used to be a siding for bulk freight (gravel or some such) after the cattle markets around Drumalee Road were closed. A very densely populated area so another possible station? In Fact CIÉ use your brains. Sell off 10 Acres for sustainable development (raising some funds) and build a station.

The Former Glasnevin Station. Which I believe the station building is now in the Beer Garden of Porterhouse North? Is only 700m from Glasnevin Cemetery / Museum and 800 from the Botanic Gardens. More Possible tourist footfall here if re-opened?

In Ideal world of course this would be for Dart Services with a commuter interchange at the Future DU station in Inchicore. Again depending on DU.

Long Time Lurker wrote: »

Total random comment here but I think its rather pathetic that a TD (now minister) from a party, which has been in successive governments since the foundation of the state that has done very little but preside over the destruction of railways in this country, should turn up for a photo op in front of a Victorian tunnel as if its some major investment in rail infrastructure in the capital city.

It was built by the British before his great grand father was born. It was probably one of the last major rail infrastructure investments in this country and it was installed while we were a colony. He and his colleagues cant manage to connect an airport, moving in excess of 21 million passengers a year, 6 miles away from it to Dublin city centre yet he turns up for this. They should have flung rocks at him.

Eh. Most of that is simply not true.

FG have not been in successive governments. Ever. It was Mostly FF who tore up the Railways, and even then only due to lack of use in a lot of cases

PPT was built by the Great Southern and Western Railway a Private company not the "British".

When a cabinet minister secures a funding of €13.7 million for a project that has been campaigned for by the public for 15 odd years then it is actually a "major investment". Of course he should show up at the press conference!

lxflyer wrote: »

It's over 750m away - that is totally unrealistic.

Nope. Been on plenty of them in Europe of similar length. Admittedly not in a train station. And they are usually maxed out at about 150-200m But even a Series of 2 or 3 of them is possible and not too expensive. However... I take it you mean the sheer number of rail lines between platform 10 and the end of the nearest platform!!