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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

RoundBox11

Pairing Luke Marshall with Cave in the centre and Payne at fullback could be really good for the wolfhounds backline. They should know each other inside out. Then Gilroy could be on one wing.

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Yeah_Right

awec wrote: »

It's a puff piece, nothing more. It'll take more than a nice photo and an interesting wee tale in the indo to win me over when it comes to Mr Lacey.

Out of curiousity (and at the risk of re-opening old wounds) what did he do to make you dislike him so much?

awec

phog wrote: »

Wasn't sure where to post this but as he's an IRFU ref I posted it here.

A look at the rise and rise of John Lacey as a ref.

I know he's not everyone's cup of tea but I think this gives some insight into how he has progressed.

mfceiling wrote: »

*sticks fingers into mouth and whistles*....AWEC

thomond2006 wrote: »

Boards.ie needs a tag function....awec where are you?

It's a puff piece, nothing more. It'll take more than a nice photo and an interesting wee tale in the indo to win me over when it comes to Mr Lacey.

.ak

total former wrote: »

Furlong is injured anyway.

Yep, but even if he was fit... Far too inexperienced and young, even if he is going to be the next 'big' thing...

... Sorry.

Noopti

MattD wrote: »

White wasn't even originally named in the training squad ahead of Ross, Moore, Furlong and Bent, he's only been dropped in for scrumming competition after injuries. To leapfrog three of them from not being in the squad would be a big leap in Joe's estimations.

Bent is going as LH/TH cover. White would only be leapfrogging Moore and Furlong. Moore is the incumbent but is recovering from surgery and hasn't even played yet. Furlong wouldn't have been much ahead of White anyway and is also recovering.

So to say it is a big leap just isn't the case. Especially now that White has actually played, and they haven't. Of course it would be a bit of a surprise to have White in the squad, especially if it was said 3 weeks ago, but to be honest I would not at all be surprised now to see Ross/White, McGrath/Healy and Bent travel. If Healy doesn't make it then Kilcoyne going in his place.

Will be very telling who is chosen to start/bench against Wales. If White starts then it is a given he is going. If he benches then probably also a given. Also if Marmion benches then it looks very ominous for Boss.

total former

.ak wrote: »

There's not a chance Furlong would go to the WC. Not one.

If Moore is injured, White will take his place I reckon.

Furlong is injured anyway.

.ak

There's not a chance Furlong would go to the WC. Not one.

If Moore is injured, White will take his place I reckon.

MattD

Noopti wrote: »

Based on his performance from the bench, and the fact Moore is recovering from surgery and has yet still to play....in my mind White is 80% already on the plane to England.

Whatever about giving Healy right to the last minute to prove himself, Moore isn't in that league. If there is any doubt at all about Moore or if he doesn't play the next game then he is not going to be in the WC squad.

White wasn't even originally named in the training squad ahead of Ross, Moore, Furlong and Bent, he's only been dropped in for scrumming competition after injuries. To leapfrog three of them from not being in the squad would be a big leap in Joe's estimations.

total former

Well, Moore is definitely the more proven prop at international level, doesn't mean he's better but definitely more proven. Had White been fit in November, he'd have won three caps then and we'd have a better idea of where he's at.

I'd have no major issues with either of them travelling, it's a far cry from 2011 when the choice was between Tony Buckley and a very, very old John Hayes. Jesus when you think back to it...

Noopti

Based on his performance from the bench, and the fact Moore is recovering from surgery and has yet still to play....in my mind White is 80% already on the plane to England.

Whatever about giving Healy right to the last minute to prove himself, Moore isn't in that league. If there is any doubt at all about Moore or if he doesn't play the next game then he is not going to be in the WC squad.

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

Define "proven". White is IMO ahead of Moore at the moment in terms of quality. Not in the pecking order, but White getting injured at a crucial time last season ruined his chances, while Moore grabbed his chance when he got it. If White hadn't got injured we might have a very different pecking order. Moore having more caps is down to luck, doesn't mean he's demonstrably better.
Agree on Bent though, if we're only taking 5 props he has to travel, which is unfortunate for Kilcoyne and White/Moore.

Listen I'm a fan of White, really I am. And maybe if he hadn't have gotten injured he'd have gotten his first cap earlier. But I'm not at all sure I'd say he's better than Moore. That Moore took his chance shows how good the guy is. And his career is only going one way right now. White is more dynamic than Moore is but in general TH play I'd take Moore over White myself.

Zzippy

Deleted User wrote: »

That was an incredibly reasonable statement, are you saying that Healy, McGrath, Ross, Moore are not the proven best two LH's and TH's in Ireland?

If you agree that they are, then you also by default have to agree that an argument against Bent because he is 3rd best in his province does nothing at all to quantify his ranking nationally, as those ahead of him are also ahead of everyone else.

There is no bias in total formers post. Plenty in this thread mind you, but none in what he wrote.

Define "proven". White is IMO ahead of Moore at the moment in terms of quality. Not in the pecking order, but White getting injured at a crucial time last season ruined his chances, while Moore grabbed his chance when he got it. If White hadn't got injured we might have a very different pecking order. Moore having more caps is down to luck, doesn't mean he's demonstrably better.
Agree on Bent though, if we're only taking 5 props he has to travel, which is unfortunate for Kilcoyne and White/Moore.

Stheno

There seemed to be three scrums we lost in the first half in quick succession that I am thinking of, memory might be wrong though, just seemed we'd three penalties in a row which were hard to understand.

The Lost Sheep

Stheno wrote: »

I was too high up to see badness in the scrum yesterday, but what happened to cause Ireland to be penalised three times in scrums

Was it illegal wheeling?

Kilcoyne didn't drive in straight and was penalised once. Cant remember other occasions. I don't think it was wheeling more than 90 though.

sydthebeat wrote: »

I thought he was very good on Saturday.

I know a lot of the nordies don't like him because of THAT game, but always came across as a decent assertive ref on the pitch.

He was good on Saturday. 1 game doesn't define a referee just like any player but some people don't seem to see that about officials...

.ak

One was for killers boring in.

Teferi

Stheno wrote: »

I was too high up to see badness in the scrum yesterday, but what happened to cause Ireland to be penalised three times in scrums

Was it illegal wheeling?

Late in the game in one of the scrums the Scottish loosehead was trying to twist White and lost his footing (intentionally I reckon). We got penalised for it.

Stheno

I was too high up to see badness in the scrum yesterday, but what happened to cause Ireland to be penalised three times in scrums

Was it illegal wheeling?

thomond2006

Boards.ie needs a tag function....awec where are you?

sydthebeat

I thought he was very good on Saturday.

I know a lot of the nordies don't like him because of THAT game, but always came across as a decent assertive ref on the pitch.

mfceiling

phog wrote: »

Wasn't sure where to post this but as he's an IRFU ref I posted it here.

A look at the rise and rise of John Lacey as a ref.

I know he's not everyone's cup of tea but I think this gives some insight into how he has progressed.

*sticks fingers into mouth and whistles*....AWEC

phog

Wasn't sure where to post this but as he's an IRFU ref I posted it here.

A look at the rise and rise of John Lacey as a ref.

I know he's not everyone's cup of tea but I think this gives some insight into how he has progressed.

Flipper22

Wang King wrote: »

Imo, that's a ridiculous and laughable statement, but, that's just my opinion.

Kilcoyne has gone in for some pretty dodgy scrummaging at times. I thought he'd improved but he was very illegal at times yesterday and rightly pinged a few times. He bores in a LOT and is happy to take a scrum down if it suits.

I'm not sure if Bent is a better scrummager (Kilcoyne is certainly better in the loose), but it's not a ridiculous statement, not by a long way.

Flipper22

penybont exile wrote: »

Paul James might be asked to do this ........

Ah but he said TOP teams.....

:pac::pac:

errlloyd

smiley_face wrote: »

Is that actually true?
I never heard that. I'm referring to the match last year where McGrath made no attempt to stay on his feet right in front of the referee while the referee shouted at him not to do it.

Firstly that match never happened, it got called off due to fog over dublin airport meaning the All Blacks couldn't land.

Owens has since said he might have been mistaken with that call, I think JS took it up with him after the match (in a presumably nice, professional Joe Schmidt way, if Cheika had taken it up with him it might have lead to pressing charges).

irishbucsfan

smiley_face wrote: »

Agree that McGrath is a great player, my only point is every player can make a mistake, and I don't think Kcoyne deserves to be called a penalty machine.
I don't recall him being a problem for Munster last season in that department, i.e. specifically in the scrum.

He gave away a couple of penalties yesterday, let alone last season!

I don't think it's a huge issue though, I wouldn't be massively concerned if we lost Healy and Mcgrath and ended up with Kilcoyne starting and Buckley on the bench, just shows how much depth we've got in the position.

smiley_face

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Funny you mention that seeing as Nigel Owens said since that he got that one wrong.

Is that actually true?
I never heard that. I'm referring to the match last year where McGrath made no attempt to stay on his feet right in front of the referee while the referee shouted at him not to do it.

smiley_face

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Funny you mention that seeing as Nigel Owens said since that he got that one wrong.

Also easy to ignore how well our scrum went that day before and after McGrath came on. A luxury we wouldn't have had with Kilcoyne who, whilst a talented player, is still a long long way behind McGrath.

Agree that McGrath is a great player, my only point is every player can make a mistake, and I don't think Kilcoyne deserves to be called a penalty machine.
I don't recall him being a problem for Munster last season in that department, i.e. specifically in the scrum.

[Deleted User]

smiley_face wrote: »

I'm sorry but I still haven't forgotten a certain penalty for losing his feet in a simple ruck that gave NZ back the possession with 30 seconds left and 6 points up.

Funny you mention that seeing as Nigel Owens said since that he got that one wrong.

Also easy to ignore how well our scrum went that day before and after McGrath came on. A luxury we wouldn't have had with Kilcoyne who, whilst a talented player, is still a long long way behind McGrath.

smiley_face

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If he was closer to McGrath / Healy in terms of ability then we could probably stomach his indiscipline but having someone who gets sin binned so regularly is a real liability for a team with a game plan based around discipline and not leaking penalties.

I'm sorry but I still haven't forgotten a certain penalty for losing his feet in a simple ruck that gave NZ back the possession with 30 seconds left and 5 points up.
McGrath is not that far ahead of Kilcoyne in terms of ability and in terms of not giving away silly penalties.
Hate to bring it up but this myth that Kilcoyne is a penalty machine and the others don't make mistakes too is just annoying me.

connachta

Anyway It's a nice problem/dilemma to have, 8 props to international level is a situation a lot of teams would love..
Not the same for SHs though

[Deleted User]

twinytwo wrote: »

If your gonna pull stats from a year ago you might as well get it right. By last season i assume you mean 2014-2015 (One of the yellows was against leinster and it wasnt for the scrum) How many yellows did he get this season?. Your whole arguement is irrelevant and utter nonsence.

If he was closer to McGrath / Healy in terms of ability then we could probably stomach his indiscipline but having someone who gets sin binned so regularly is a real liability for a team with a game plan based around discipline and not leaking penalties.

Anyway, the primary point is that Bent is superior in the scrum to Kilcoyne and yesterday was a prime example of that.