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Off the Fence....and looking to go sub 3 hrs

FBOT01

New Year with new challenges ahead…..going to try this log thing out and share my experiences in the hope that the boys and girls of the “boards.ie” community might be able to help me on the road to a sub 3hr Marathon. Yep I said it and it is now out there. No more sitting on the fence..... sub 3hrs is the next big goal!

A little bit of background to put my goal and the challenge ahead in context.....

I’m a 44 yr old 5’ 6 “ late starter with no history or background in running. After hitting 40 and been given a choice between Statins or exercise I choose running. I kicked off my running “career” in January 2011 at the Raheny 5 with the Connemara Half in April 2011 as the target goal. After graduating to the DCM in October 2011 I caught the running bug and have been ticking along enjoying almost every step since.

Marathon History
DCM 2011 03:42:12 (‘FIRST’ training programme)
DCM 2012 03:28:12 ( ‘FIRST’ programme again with extra running days and 10 week pilates course)
DCM 2013 03:13:16 (P&D 18wk /55m – no pilates and it showed in the last 2 miles)

PB’s
5K - 18:19 Parkrun St Anne’s – Oct 2013
5m - 34:20 Raheny 5 – Jan 2013 (only 5 miles I have run is Raheny 5 and until this year I would have been coming off a Nov/Dec break and a heavy Christmas)
10k - 39:05 Docklands – Jun 2013
10m – 1:04:36 Frank Duffy – Aug 2013
½ marathon - 1:28:56 Kildare - May 2013
Marathon - 3:13:16 DCM – Oct 2013

Total Mileage for 2013 was 1,900 miles.

Diary for 2014 starts with Raheny 5 at end of Jan and will be followed by Ballycotton 10 in March and Connemara Marathon in April. Original plan was to work towards a crack at 3hrs in Berlin but didn't manage to get a slot in the lottery so I guess I will have to try it on home soil in DCM 2014 all going well.

I am currently on week 7 of the 18 week P&D 55 to 70 mile program and all is going OK at the moment touch wood........did my first +60 week 2 weeks ago and still motoring.

Last week runs were as follows:
Mon – 7m @ 8:02 avg pace
Tues – 12.39m @ 8:19 avg pace
Wed – 5.87m @ 8:34 avg pace (Recovery)
Thurs – 10m @ 8:09 avg pace
Fri – 5.22m @ 9:02 avg pace (Recovery)
Sat – 12.28m @ 7:58 avg pace followed by St Annes Parkrun 5k @ 6:20 avg pace
Sun - Rest

Week = 55.9m
MTD = 95.8m
YTD = 95.8M

Look forward to getting your views, thoughts and advices over the coming weeks, months, years............and for all they might be worth sharing mine!

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FBOT01

05/08/2015 - 14.2m @ 07:40 avg pace (MLR - Progression)

Can't remember too much of this other than seeing some of the 10 in 5 guys struggling round Howth on Marathon 4. I'd say that they were rightly focked by Saturday. I also remember bouncing through the last 4 miles section of sub 07:20 pace.

Splits were:
Distant | Avg Pace | Splits
5 miles | 07:59 | 07:42/07:56/08:00/08:00/08:12
5 miles | 07:42 | 07:48/07:47/07:36/07:35/07:38
4 miles | 07:16 | 07:15/07:17/07:17/07:15

06/08/2015 - 11m @ 08:00 avg pace (MLR - Easy)

Long day including a up and back to Belfast. If I hadn't have had an unplanned rest day on Monday I could have easily canned this one. But I did so I didn't. Hit the road late and was running in the dark pretty quickly. Haven't done that in a while. All went fine and enjoyed the run once I was out. Took in the drag up to Santry then on up past DCU before returning via Griffith Ave and the coast.

Slow mile to start but had a couple of faster ones at the end that evened things out.

07/08/2015 - 7m @ 08:06 avg pace (General Aerobic w10x100m Strides)

Legs left heavy for this one and with one eye on tomorrow's LR I keep things nice and easy. I did the strides on the grass along the coast for a change and the legs felt much looser by the time I got through the first 5.

08/08/2015 - 21.4m @ 07:56 avg pace (LR - Progression)

Wasn't my normal structured progression as route/terrain didn't really allow for this. I ran the first 6/7 miles solo over to Ashtown where I met up with Yaboya. Biggest challenge for 1st section was to safely negotiate Murph's swans which I did.

After I met Yaboya everything got a little easier as the company and chat made the miles disappear much quicker. Trying to figure where we were also kept the mind occupied

We headed out the Canal then turned toward the Liffey and when we hit that we headed down river towards the PP. Hit everything for narrow canal side trails to narrow windy roads with no paths on route. Did the last few miles in PP before coffee and cakes with the novices at the visitors centre. They all looked happy out and enjoyed their miles around the park. DG appears to have them in great shape.

Will add splits later as don't have the time or patience at the mo

09/08/2015 5.5m @ 08:31 avg pace (Recovery)

Nice easy recovery run with Ferris around our old stomping ground.

All in all this was a good week with a decent LT session and LR under the belt. Two more tough week before the next recovery week though :pac:

tang1

Your coming into shape nicely M, whats the goal time for Frank Duffy?

FBOT01

tang1 wrote: »

Your coming into shape nicely M, whats the goal time for Frank Duffy?

Cheers B. 10m PB is 01:01:23 and last year FD time was 01:02:06 so nailing them to the mast Gold would be 01:00:xx , Silver would be a PB and Bronze would be better than last years result.....if I was a sandbagger I would be telling you about the 120miles or so that I still have to run between now and then and how I don't know how that will effect my chances but I am not so I will just plod through it then run like fock and see where it gets me

tang1

FBOT01 wrote: »

Cheers B. 10m PB is 01:01:23 and last year FD time was 01:02:06 so nailing them to the mast Gold would be sub 01:00:xx , Silver would be a PB and Bronze would be better than last years result.....if I was a sandbagger I would be telling you about the 120miles or so that I still have to run between now and then and how I don't know how that will effect my chances but I am not so I will just plod through it then run like fock and see where it gets me

I meant to say to you there was a strong field around your level(60mins) at Mullingar this year, no doubt it would have helped you if you ran. Like the simple plan of run like fock & see where it gets you.

FBOT01

10/08/2015 - 6m @ 08:26 avg pace & 4m @ 08:47 avg pace (Recovery)

First double day of the programme. Didn't get out early enough for the am run so only end up with 3hrs between finishing one and starting the other.

Both were slow and steady recovery run around some of the usual local loops. No probs.

Meant to say on previous post that I got back to the stretching at the weekend after pretty much a month of none. Hopefully, I can build them into the routine a little more regularly from this point on. Still no real S&C. Note to self: Must try harder/Must commit!!

ThebitterLemon

You must be in great shape M if you targeting 1.00. That's a great position to be in at this stage. Best of luck with it.

TbL

FBOT01

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

You must be in great shape M if you targeting 1.00. That's a great position to be in at this stage. Best of luck with it.

TbL

Cheers, C. Sure if you don't dream

FBOT01

11/08/2015 - 14.7m @ 07:44 avg pace (MLR - Progression)

Was a bit sluggish for this one. Couldn't really find a rhythm. Mind was wandering and had a bit of stiffness in my right hip/glute. As a result of the mind falling asleep I didn't hit the paces for the first 2 sections but with a concerted effort to concentrate on form and a couple of downhill miles to finish I was there or thereabout for the 3rd Section.

Splits were:
Distant | Avg Pace | Splits
5 miles | 08:07 | 08:03/07:57/08:12/08:14/08:08
5 miles | 07:45 | 07:48/07:43/07:45/07:42/07:44
4 miles | 07:19 | 07:18/07:21/07:21/07:19/07:13

Anyone got any views on the merits of these progression run or on my interpretation of how they should be done. P&D's view is that Long Runs and Medium-Long Runs should start out at MP + 20% and gradually progress to finish in the MP+10% zone. My interpretation has been to break them into 3 sections and run them as MP+20%, MP+15% and MP+10% rather than progress gradually mile by mile. This is probably down to my need for structure and a reference pace rather than the auld run by feel method. View? Comments? Opinions? Experiences?

FBOT01

12/08/2015 - 5.2m @ 08:47 avg pace (Recovery)

Nice easy loop around St Anne's with Ferris taking in most of the new path. Hip still a little stiff so will have to hit the roller or do a bit a stretching before tomorrow's LT run.

dublin runner

Personally I would focus purely on effort on those progression runs. After two or three will learn how to judge the run. A worthwhile experiment if nothing else. A change of focus may be a worthwhile persuit, focusing on effort rather than the thing strapped to your arm!

I would only be really concerned with paces after a period of running by feel. If that makes any sense!

rooneyjm

I've been looking at your progression run times with interest. I've been doing them as long progression runs (LPR), alternating each week between LR and LPR. I do 1 hr in Z2 heart rate zone (less than 145bpm) then for example 45min @ 7.15, then 30mins @ 6.50(or as close as I can get) and 10 mins easy to finish. This is more from Macmillian style progression runs where you finish at MP or slightly harder if you can do it.

I thought your progression paces were a bit slow with respect, considering your LT times are much better than mine and your 10mile time is 1.02. Should you be pushing a bit harder or am I going to hard? Maybe the P&D plan pushes the paces in the progression runs a bit more in the weeks ahead?

FBOT01

dublin runner wrote: »

Personally I would focus purely on effort on those progression runs. After two or three will learn how to judge the run. A worthwhile experiment if nothing else. A change of focus may be a worthwhile persuit, focusing on effort rather than the thing strapped to your arm!

I would only be really concerned with paces after a period of running by feel. If that makes any sense!

Cheers DR. Yep it makes perfect sense and it is along the lines of the way I am thinking I need to go if I want to progress.

Unfortunately, I have always (when I say always I am not at this that long) run by pace even when I only had me auld €10 Casio.

Just not sure of the timing of the change. In reality with 10 weeks to DCM I am unlikely to do it in now but I will certainly be changing things up after DCM whether I hit my target or not. As if I hit my target the "pressure" will be off and if I don't my current approach is obviously the wrong one

Thanks for the input. You seem to be hammering along nicely. Hope you get to the end of the week intact and enjoy the hols

FBOT01

rooneyjm wrote: »

I've been looking at your progression run times with interest. I've been doing them as long progression runs (LPR), alternating each week between LR and LPR. I do 1 hr in Z2 heart rate zone (less than 145bpm) then for example 45min @ 7.15, then 30mins @ 6.50(or as close as I can get) and 10 mins easy to finish. This is more from Macmillian style progression runs where you finish at MP or slightly harder if you can do it.

I thought your progression paces were a bit slow with respect, considering your LT times are much better than mine and your 10mile time is 1.02*. Should you be pushing a bit harder or am I going to hard? Maybe the P&D plan pushes the paces in the progression runs a bit more in the weeks ahead?

Hi RJM, I am happy with the P&D approach to pace ranges and I think the MP+10 to MP+20 ranges works for these runs when you combine them with the specific sessions in particular the LT sessions and the MP miles incorporated in some of the LR. I think if I was running the MLR much harder they would seriously take away from my ability to hit the LT paces, etc.

I am not familiar with Macmillian stuff so don't know how the faster progression runs fit in the overall programme. I will certainly have a look at it as part of my research for change options. Thanks. I hope your training is going well.

*I will have you know that my 10mile PB is 01:01:23 :P

dublin runner

FBOT01 wrote: »

Cheers DR. Yep it makes perfect sense and it is along the lines of the way I am thinking I need to go if I want to progress.

Unfortunately, I have always (when I say always I am not at this that long) run by pace even when I only had me auld €10 Casio.

Just not sure of the timing of the change. In reality with 10 weeks to DCM I am unlikely to do it in now but I will certainly be changing things up after DCM whether I hit my target or not. As if I hit my target the "pressure" will be off and if I don't my current approach is obviously the wrong one

10 weeks is loads of time

. You could experiment on the odd run. Wear the garmin but turn off the screen and run by feel. I go through phases of this odd time (not enough). I generally run everything at the start too fast but settle. It's a confidence thing. It's hard to separate yourself from the watch at time and trust yourself. Sometimes it goes a bit wrong but it's all about the overall development.

I would argue that 10 weeks is plenty of time but I know where you are coming from. Something to think about even if you don't feel it necessary during this cycle. You are going well, fair play.

rooneyjm

FBOT01 wrote: »

*I will have you know that my 10mile PB is 01:01:23 :P

Even better again. Some light reading 4U. https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/articlePages/article/id/2/showVideo/1#article2

R you still doing the pliates classes, did you find them much help? Did 30k today but tightened up badly at the end, might need to get some yoga in

FBOT01

dublin runner wrote: »

10 weeks is loads of time . You could experiment on the odd run. Wear the garmin but turn off the screen and run by feel. I go through phases of this odd time (not enough). I generally run everything at the start too fast but settle. It's a confidence thing. It's hard to separate yourself from the watch at time and trust yourself. Sometimes it goes a bit wrong but it's all about the overall development.

I would argue that 10 weeks is plenty of time but I know where you are coming from. Something to think about even if you don't feel it necessary during this cycle. You are going well, fair play.

I am hearing you, DR. Might try a couple of experiments over the next couple of weeks and see how it goes.

rooneyjm wrote: »

Even better again. Some light reading 4U. https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/articlePages/article/id/2/showVideo/1#article2

R you still doing the pliates classes, did you find them much help? Did 30k today but tightened up badly at the end, might need to get some yoga in

Cheer RJM. I haven't started back at Pilates beacause the class i was doing last year finished up and I haven't found another one locally yet. It is still on the agenda and I would highly recommend it. Need to find one that works for you though. I was through 3 difference class until I found one that I wanted to go back to. I have been recommend a yoga class in Drumcondra so I am going to try that next week. The back end of the LRs are where I really feel the benefit of any form of core work done.

FBOT01

13/08/2015 - 11m @ 07:30 avg pace (LT w/5 @ 10mp/hmpish)

The LT sessions are the ones I have always found the most difficult in any of the P&D plans I have done. This one should have been 11 w/6 @ 10mp with 10mp being sub 06:10 on a good day and sub 06:15 on a bad one.

I roped Yaboya into joining me for this one but I probably shouldn't have. It was a little unfair on him as he hasn't been doing as much training as he would like and has been a little under the weather at the same time.........but these sessions are easier in company so as I said I roped him in.

We meet up at lunchtime in the PP with the sun splitting the stones and the temp higher than was ideal. Sensible options would have been to push it back til later in the day or dial back the pace. Had no window later in the day and not enough sense to dial back.

Off we went for 4m warm-up. Pleasant jaunt along the South side of the park and up past the Wellington Monument onto Chesterfield, bitching about everything and anything along the way. The plan was to do the LT up the Avenue, down the North Road and then back up the Avenue again. Kicked off the faster stuff and the first mile actually didn't feel as bad as it might have. However, Yaboya's reduced training load and increased work load caught up on him here and he decided to back off towards the end of mile one so at least one of us got sense. Felt a bit bad that I hadn't given him an out earlier.

Mile 1 was 06:11 and given the fact it was uphill I was happy enough. Things started to get a lot tougher pretty quickly after that. Mile 2 was 06:17 and I consoled myself by saying I would get it back going back down the North Road. Turned onto the North Road and the wind was into me and the sun seemed to be baking me WFT. Mile 3 didn't get any better and the watch beeped at 06:18. I was cooked at this stage. Plugged on down past the zoo with mile 4 at 06:28. Pace targets were gone now and I was just trying to hold effort. Heading up the Avenue on mile 5 was like running in treacle. Glanced at the watch at one stage and it was showing 07:xx. :eek: Hit the end of mile 5 at 06:46 and pulled the plug. The horse was dead so no point in flogging it. Jogged out the last 2 miles to at least get the 11 in, meeting up with Yaboya again along the way.

Schoolboy errors made by both of us. In reality given the heat yesterday the way to do this would have been to dial back to 06:20 or 06:25 from the off and if all was going well push on for the last couple of miles. This would have been a far more positive experience all around.

The average for the 5 faster miles I did do was 06:24.

We live and learn....hopefully:rolleyes:

annapr

So what were yiz bitching about? g'wan... tell us!

yaboya1

annapr wrote: »

So what were yiz bitching about? g'wan... tell us!

How long have you got?

Dublin Bus
South Dublin County Council
Fingal County Council
DLR County Council
Politicians.....etc.

adrian522

Was pretty hot yesterday alright ,even on my easy run I noticed I was slower than I'd normally be.

* May be because of laziness.

FBOT01

adrian522 wrote: »

Was pretty hot yesterday alright ,even on my easy run I noticed I was slower than I'd normally be.

* May be because of laziness.

In fairness Adrian I don't think we were being lazy. Well I know I wasn't. Maybe Yaboya was? Were you just being lazy yesterday, P?

yaboya1

FBOT01 wrote: »

In fairness Adrian I don't think we were being lazy. Well I know I wasn't. Maybe Yaboya was? Were you just being lazy yesterday, P?

I wish!

adrian522

I was referring to myself!

Mrs Mc

yaboya1 wrote: »

How long have you got?

Dublin Bus
South Dublin County Council
Fingal County Council
DLR County Council
Politicians.....etc.

Thank god I don't appear Anna !

FBOT01

Mrs Mc wrote:

Thank god I don't appear Anna !

Etc........;)

FBOT01

14/08/2015 - 5m @ 08:52 avg pace (Recovery)

Lunchtime recovery run along the coast and into St Anne's. Nothing to report.

15/08/2015 - 21.5m @ 07:46 avg pace (Long Run - Progression)

Up and at it early for this one, hitting the road with nothing other than a small glass of water. Target was to be back at St Anne's parkrun to help out by 9:30/9:40.

The route I had in my head was up through Santry out past the Airport as far as the Estruary Roundabout then in through Malahide, Portmarnock and Baldoyle and finally along the coast to St Anne's. Hadn't checked the distance but had done it before last year and knew it would get me the planned 20 and maybe another one or two. Glorious morning and a perfect route choice for the day that was in it. Bit of a nip in the air when I started but warmed up nicely and before it got too warm and very accommodating cloud jumped in front of the sun to let me see out the run with no requirement for a water stop.

I would normally run these as progression run broken into 3 sections so for a 20miler it would be 7/7/6 @ avg pace of 08:00/07:40/07:20 give of take. After discussions on here earlier in the week I decided to run it with as little reference to the watch as possible so started the watch and then put it back to time. Only looked at the lap pace when it beeped after mile 5, 10 and 15 and I even lose count so didn't know until I stopped at St Anne's whether I had run 20 or 21. Turns out I did 21.5.

The results of the experiment were a pleasant surprise. It appears I am not as bad at running by feel as I thought. Was particularly delighted that when I moved between progression sections I moved into the right pace zone quite naturally. I wasn't surprised that I was a little off in the last section as the breeze started to become a factor and the last couple of miles along the coast where into a stiff head-on breeze. I could have pushed on a bit for this section and may have done so if I was checking the watch but the effort was good so I just held it solid.

Distance | Avg Pace | Splits | Comment
7 miles | 08:07 | 08:40/08:13/08:07/08:01/07:53/08:02/08:02 | 1st mile was a wake up mile and the rest were uphill. Decent drag from the Coast to the Airport
7 miles | 07:37 | 07:34/07:35/07:34/07:36/07:48/07:32/07:42 | Hip stiffened up after the downhill at Airside and took a mile or so to loosen out. Literally gave me a pain in my ****s during mile 9 (TMI I know but you need to record these things for future reference

)
7.5 miles | 07:24 | 07:27/07:25/07:22/07:24/07:26/07:20/07:27/03:51 |

Felt pretty good throughout with the exception of the hip/glute pain/stiffness at mile 8/9. Am booked in for a sports massage so that should help work it out.

Arrived in St Anne's in plenty of time to do my duty before joining the crew for post-run coffee. When I got home I did the Hartman Stretches for good measure..........now what's the plan for the weekend

tang1

Nice run on a fairly testing route M, the mojo has returned by the looks of things, either that or you robbed Mrs Mc's!!

rooneyjm

Nice going. I got the P&D book and was flicking through it last night. Couldn't see any reference to Progression runs in the description of the MLR. Is this something you have added yourself?

Firedance

Nice work. I was at St Annes today (first time) did have a quick scout around to see if I'd recognise anyone but obviously not well enough!

Mrs Mc

Firedance wrote: »

Nice work. I was at St Annes today (first time) did have a quick scout around to see if I'd recognise anyone but obviously not well enough!

That's a pity didn't realise you were there I was marshalling at the corner of the tennis courts today.