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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

RoundBox11

Pairing Luke Marshall with Cave in the centre and Payne at fullback could be really good for the wolfhounds backline. They should know each other inside out. Then Gilroy could be on one wing.

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smiley_face

clsmooth wrote: »

Not a chance. He needs a good performance to seal his place in the squad. Kearney is treated like Heaslip on here. Many will only miss them when they're gone.

I wouldn't be so sure, I can't remember Kearney doing anything special in the 6 nations, and gives no excitement when running the ball or joining the line as a strike runner.
Horses for courses, depends on opposition I suppose.
The one thing that stood out in my memory in the defeat to Wales was the disappointing loss of a lot of high balls, which hurt our gameplan hugely in terms of possession and territory, Leigh Halfpenny is small compared to most fullbacks yet was able to rise above and claim the ball in the air, among a few other Welsh players.
I hope whoever plays in the back 3 in the World Cup will redress that.

smiley_face

clsmooth wrote: »

Why do you say 'unchallenged' when you just disagreed with a previous posters opinion of Jones being the weakest player in the match day 23? Jones is his competition, and if you feel he doesn't challenge Keanrey for the 15 jersey, then you're agreeing with the fact that Jones must be the weakest member in the 23.

Unchallenged in that Jones wasn't really given an opportunity to challenge during the 6 nations with such a paucity of match time.
Kearney played every minute of the 6 nations in 2014 IIRC too.

clsmooth

Buer wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from but I think even his detractors know how good Heaslip is and simply don't like the guy too much; you're not the test Lion two tours in a row and an IRB nominee without being undeniably world class.

RK is someone his detractors don't see what he brings to the table or don't like the type of player he is. Plus, he's not at the level that Heaslip is overall, I reckon.

True, I'd rate Heaslip ahead of Kearney overall as well. Although many of the detractors want Heaslip to burst through tackles etc and want Kearney to slice through defenses in attack. Kearney is a 'boring' and 'solid' choice at 15. But his ability in the air and positioning are world class, and he's not a player an opposition team can target easily. Fingers can be pointed at his counter attacking, his one on one defense and vision for picking a pass, but for the game teams play in the northern hemisphere and we play in Ireland, he's a perfect fit.

.ak

smiley_face wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure, I can't remember Kearney doing anything special in the 6 nations, and gives no excitement when running the ball or joining the line as a strike runner.
Horses for courses, depends on opposition I suppose.
The one thing that stood out in my memory in the defeat to Wales was the loss of a lot of high balls, Leigh Halfpenny is small compared to most fullbacks yet was able to rise above and claim the ball in the air, among a few other Welsh players.
I hope whoever plays in the back 3 in the World Cup will redress that.

Thank feck excitement doesn't win you trophies.

I can't think of one fullback in the world, bar maybe la roux, that has a better positional radar. I think it's the basics that people overlook when they look at RK. People don't remember his performances because he didn't make that scything run, or that offload, or setup that counter attack.... But people are all too eager to forget the ignore the basics he does well; the ground he covers, his positioning, his aerial skills, his kicking game, his physicality, his handling, his communication, his decision making. All boring things but that's what wins you game.

Buer

One thing I'll always point out when people ask what's his purpose in the team is to think back to our games and try to remember how many times the opposition managed to win territory with a kick to touch. It's a rare sight for that to happen against us which has a huge impact on how our defensive structure can be set.

He's not an exciting full back but he's not in the team to be one.

clsmooth

smiley_face wrote: »

Unchallenged in that Jones wasn't really given an opportunity to challenge during the 6 nations with such a paucity of match time.
Kearney played every minute of the 6 nations in 2014 IIRC too.

So he's the only consistent member of the back 3 who started and won back to back 6 Nations. Fair enough he didn't do anything exciting, but who did? And far more importantly I don't remember him making any serious errors.

molloyjh

smiley_face wrote: »

Speak for your self, I disagree for one anyway.

Anyone think Zebo could actually take Kearney's heretofore unchallenged No. 15 Jersey with a good performance?

Zebo replacing Rob Kearney at full back!?

smiley_face

clsmooth wrote: »

True, I'd rate Heaslip ahead of Kearney overall as well. Although many of the detractors want Heaslip to burst through tackles etc and want Kearney to slice through defenses in attack. Kearney is a 'boring' and 'solid' choice at 15. But his ability in the air and positioning are world class, and he's not a player an opposition team can target easily. Fingers can be pointed at his counter attacking, his one on one defense and vision for picking a pass, but for the game teams play in the northern hemisphere and we play in Ireland, he's a perfect fit.

I know the point you are trying to make, that his reputation as a good challenger in the air and that he will always look to do the same simple thing with the ball which leaves little margin for error is why he is a good fit for our boring and non-counter attacking play from fullback i.e. Look for the nearest person that will ruck over him and go into contact and hit the deck in front of his support.

I'd challenge that evaluation, and suggest we have at least 3 players between Jones, R Kearney and Zebo that can execute exactly that gameplan, and Jones and Zebo possibly more in terms of counter attacking, vision and pace.

Also trademark moves such as kicking the ball back to the opposition, up and under kick-chases, and sporadic attempts at a drop goal, are other facets of the Kearney mold that can be easily replicated by either Jones or Zebo.

To be fair to Kearney though, he has specific instructions no doubt and he may not be allowed try anything special.

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from but I think even his detractors know how good Heaslip is and simply don't like the guy too much; you're not the test Lion two tours in a row and an IRB nominee without being undeniably world class.

RK is someone his detractors don't see what he brings to the table or don't like the type of player he is. Plus, he's not at the level that Heaslip is overall, I reckon.

He's still a few levels above Zebo at this point in time though.

Awesomeness

Kearney is an attacking threat. Not from his strike running but from his ability to claim high balls that sexton or that he puts up himself gains us a lot of yards

[Deleted User]

smiley_face wrote: »

Speak for your self, I disagree for one anyway.

Anyone think Zebo could actually take Kearney's heretofore unchallenged No. 15 Jersey with a good performance?

Nobody is going to take anyone's place in the team in the back of the warmups, forget it. It'll take someone getting injured or a catastrophic loss in form for a change to occur in about 14 of the 15 positions, the one remaining position being left wing.

[Deleted User]

smiley_face wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure, I can't remember Kearney doing anything special in the 6 nations, and gives no excitement when running the ball or joining the line as a strike runner.
Horses for courses, depends on opposition I suppose.
The one thing that stood out in my memory in the defeat to Wales was the disappointing loss of a lot of high balls, which hurt our gameplan hugely in terms of possession and territory, Leigh Halfpenny is small compared to most fullbacks yet was able to rise above and claim the ball in the air, among a few other Welsh players.
I hope whoever plays in the back 3 in the World Cup will redress that.

Posted this in another thread but last 6 nations Kearney had more defenders beaten, meters run with ball and turnovers than Halfpenny. He was double some of Halfpenny's stats which would indicated to me that he has a stronger influence on the overall game without being too "flashy".

Tox56

total former wrote: »

So, one of the main criticisms of the 2007 world cup preparation was that the starting XV was cast in stone and that the remaining players were disillusioned and unhappy.

Is it any different this time? With the exception of left wing (maybe), no one has any realistic prospect of breaking into the first team.

I know Eddie took it too far with separate training schedules etc, but it would be interesting to know how guys feel knowing they're traveling purely to make up the numbers.

My points on this:

1) Our 15 is set in stone with the exception of left wing because its immediately obvious who are 15 best players are in every position, except left wing. Look at the players in our first XV, and there really isnt a debate over who should be starting in any position except 11. Ruddock over POM is the closest I can get, and thats pushing it and not particularly relevant anymore anyway. Pretty similar story on the bench. What else do you expect really? They are obviously our best players so they will obviously start our important games at the world cup. It would only be an issue if nobody else was getting a look in, which leads me to..

2) Our depth is as good as it has ever been, and the players outside the 15/23 are not just travelling to make up the numbers. The only players reasonably likely to travel (imo at least) who havent been involved in Ireland's last two Six Nations campaigns are Earls, Strauss, D Ryan, and Bent. Thats pretty much every player in the squad who has been involved in 10 games, specifically very important high profile games (and there are more who were involved like TOD, Keatley, DK, McFadden who will probably be left at home). If we make it to the final/3rd place playoff we'll be playing 7 games. Its unfortunate, but injuries are inevitable, and players who arent likely to be involved right now are very likely to be needed at some point. I mean, who wouldnt be surprised if some or all of the 4 I named above as not having played any Six Nations games at all under Schmidt end up playing a big part in the squad for one reason or another? Of our likely squad, I think Bent is the only one who hasnt started a game for Ireland in the last 2 years. As I said, this is the best depth we have ever had, and that isnt just down to the ability of the players involved, Schmidt has managed them very well.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Posted this in another thread but last 6 nations Kearney had more defenders beaten, meters run with ball and turnovers than Halfpenny. He was double some of Halfpenny's stats which would indicated to me that he has a stronger influence on the overall game without being too "flashy".

As Irish fans, there's a chance that we're going through Kearney with a fine comb and comparing it to Halfpenny's highlight reel too

irishbucsfan

The problem in 2007 wasn't really anything to do with the first choice being unchanged, the problem was that noone else had been getting a look in for quite a while before the competition. The environment wasn't the same as it is now, so much so that when changes were made they were a huge deal (Reddan starting for example). There was major stagnation in the squad whereas I don't think it would be nearly as surprising if Schmidt incorporated somebody new into the squad.

Buer

smiley_face wrote: »

.

Also trademark moves such as kicking the ball back to the opposition, up and under kick-chases, and sporadic attempts at a drop goal, are other facets of the Kearney mold that can be easily replicated by either Jones or Zebo.

Those are elements that RK is head and shoulders above them at. If they could be easily replicated, they would be. Zebo's line kicking is the only element there that's comparable.

smiley_face

Buer wrote: »

Those are elements that RK is head and shoulders above them at. If they could be easily replicated, they would be. Zebo's line kicking is the only element there that's comparable.

Up and under kick chases are not difficult, literally any player that plays in the back 3 positions can kick the ball high and chase the kick.
Impossible to say who is better at drop goals as rarely see them attempted.
Kicking for territory is also hard to compare, but again, it's bread and butter stuff, all players at international level can do it.
It's much more difficult to be an effective ball-carrier and counter-attacker than it is to kick the ball.
That's where the weakness is at the moment.
Again, perhaps Kearney is just not allowed to try anything special, and is only following specific instructions.
He probably could do more with the ball in hand but I'm guessing he'd get in trouble with the management of he decided to try anything out of the ordinary.
Perhaps that's why Jones is a good backup as he will do exactly what he is told also.
Zebo will think for himself and plays more heads-up rugby which is probably to the disliking of the current management.

LEIN

molloyjh wrote: »

http://media.giphy.com/media/VBUIvFMG4eEOQ/giphy.gif

Zebo replacing Rob Kearney at full back!?

Thanks for that, I needed that laugh.

Buer

smiley_face wrote: »

Up and under kick chases are not difficult, literally any player that plays in the back 3 positions can kick the ball high and chase the kick.
Impossible to say who is better at drop goals as rarely see them attempted.
Kicking for territory is also hard to compare, but again, it's bread and butter stuff, all players at international level can do it.

You're being extremely simplistic about things. Chasing kicks is not difficult. Actually making an impact and claiming them is. RK is known as one of the top kick catchers in the world and has been for about 7 years now.

Impossible to say who is better at drop goals? No, it's not at all. RK is well known for having a huge boot and being able to strike them well from distance. He doesn't score a lot of them but has popped them over a few times. Neither Zebo nor Jones have ever scored one in their professional careers. I'm sure most of us recall RK's effort against Australia when the game was tied up. Zebo/Jones simply don't have that option in their skill set, very few do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g55Rg4FAwVQ

All players at international level can kick for territory? Have you ever seen Andrew Trimble's kicking from hand? Or Shane Horgan's? Woeful stuff. There's vast differences in their kicking abilities. Zebo has a wonderful left boot. Jones is a conservative kicker from hand and doesn't have a great range. Rob Kearney would be similar to Zebo in terms of distance and accuracy.

Thelomen Toblackai

Zebo has no chance of claiming a starting FB spot. I'd imagine his only hope for the WC is showing himself to be better Winger/FB cover than Jones is FB/Wing cover which even at that I think Joe has probably already decided on.

I would have liked to see Payne an option at FB to offer something different to Kearney though.

irishbucsfan

So Rob Kearney has been reduced to 1) Up and Unders, 2) Drop Goals 3) Kicking for territory?

This might be a new low for this thread!

[Deleted User]

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So Rob Kearney has been reduced to 1) Up and Unders, 2) Drop Goals 3) Kicking for territory?

This might be a new low for this thread!

Going by this thread Kearney would be as well off just packing it in at this stage. He can only do the simple things that any back three can and otherwise is mostly crap.

Amazing that he's bluffed his way to this level.

aimee1

Deleted User wrote: »

Amazing that he's bluffed his way to this level.

part of 4 european trophy winning campaigns with leinster
A grand slam, and two other 6n titles
3 x pro 12 titles
2 lions tours

chap is a spoofer

[Deleted User]

Is it unreasonable that I'm irritated by people wearing a Munster jersey to an Irish match...

andymx11

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it unreasonable that I'm irritated by people wearing a Munster jersey to an Irish match...

Perfectly reasonable. I'd say something to the individual if I were you..

smiley_face

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So Rob Kearney has been reduced to 1) Up and Unders, 2) Drop Goals 3) Kicking for territory?

This might be a new low for this thread!

You wouldn't be trying to ignore a few posts and selecting a small portion of it to make a cheap remark by any chance?

[Deleted User]

Just saw some wanker in a Leinster jersey. Balance has returned to the universe

irishbucsfan

smiley_face wrote: »

You wouldn't be trying to ignore a few posts and selecting a small portion of it to make a cheap remark by any chance?

No, but you are guilty of ignoring the vast majority of the game and selecting and misunderstanding a small portion of the game to come to a minority opinion on Rob Kearney.

Territory is not as easy to come by as you seem to think it is.

PTH2009

Is there less pressure on our bigger players eg Sexton, o connoll, Murray, heaslip etc in these warm up tests because they know there going to be in the world cup squad.

andymx11

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just saw some wanker in a Leinster jersey. Balance has returned to the universe

At least Leinster have a strong presence in the irish set up....