nav[aria-label="Primary Navigation"] { padding: 0; & ul { list-style: none; width: 100%; display: flex; flex-direction: row; justify-content: start; align-items: start; gap: 30px; padding: 0; & li { margin: 0; } & ul li { list-style: none; } } }

Child Item

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread IV

RoundBox11

Pairing Luke Marshall with Cave in the centre and Payne at fullback could be really good for the wolfhounds backline. They should know each other inside out. Then Gilroy could be on one wing.

Find more posts tagged with

Quick Links

Comments

Tox56

total former wrote: »

So, one of the main criticisms of the 2007 world cup preparation was that the starting XV was cast in stone and that the remaining players were disillusioned and unhappy.

Is it any different this time? With the exception of left wing (maybe), no one has any realistic prospect of breaking into the first team.

I know Eddie took it too far with separate training schedules etc, but it would be interesting to know how guys feel knowing they're traveling purely to make up the numbers.

My points on this:

1) Our 15 is set in stone with the exception of left wing because its immediately obvious who are 15 best players are in every position, except left wing. Look at the players in our first XV, and there really isnt a debate over who should be starting in any position except 11. Ruddock over POM is the closest I can get, and thats pushing it and not particularly relevant anymore anyway. Pretty similar story on the bench. What else do you expect really? They are obviously our best players so they will obviously start our important games at the world cup. It would only be an issue if nobody else was getting a look in, which leads me to..

2) Our depth is as good as it has ever been, and the players outside the 15/23 are not just travelling to make up the numbers. The only players reasonably likely to travel (imo at least) who havent been involved in Ireland's last two Six Nations campaigns are Earls, Strauss, D Ryan, and Bent. Thats pretty much every player in the squad who has been involved in 10 games, specifically very important high profile games (and there are more who were involved like TOD, Keatley, DK, McFadden who will probably be left at home). If we make it to the final/3rd place playoff we'll be playing 7 games. Its unfortunate, but injuries are inevitable, and players who arent likely to be involved right now are very likely to be needed at some point. I mean, who wouldnt be surprised if some or all of the 4 I named above as not having played any Six Nations games at all under Schmidt end up playing a big part in the squad for one reason or another? Of our likely squad, I think Bent is the only one who hasnt started a game for Ireland in the last 2 years. As I said, this is the best depth we have ever had, and that isnt just down to the ability of the players involved, Schmidt has managed them very well.

[Deleted User]

smiley_face wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure, I can't remember Kearney doing anything special in the 6 nations, and gives no excitement when running the ball or joining the line as a strike runner.
Horses for courses, depends on opposition I suppose.
The one thing that stood out in my memory in the defeat to Wales was the disappointing loss of a lot of high balls, which hurt our gameplan hugely in terms of possession and territory, Leigh Halfpenny is small compared to most fullbacks yet was able to rise above and claim the ball in the air, among a few other Welsh players.
I hope whoever plays in the back 3 in the World Cup will redress that.

Posted this in another thread but last 6 nations Kearney had more defenders beaten, meters run with ball and turnovers than Halfpenny. He was double some of Halfpenny's stats which would indicated to me that he has a stronger influence on the overall game without being too "flashy".

[Deleted User]

smiley_face wrote: »

Speak for your self, I disagree for one anyway.

Anyone think Zebo could actually take Kearney's heretofore unchallenged No. 15 Jersey with a good performance?

Nobody is going to take anyone's place in the team in the back of the warmups, forget it. It'll take someone getting injured or a catastrophic loss in form for a change to occur in about 14 of the 15 positions, the one remaining position being left wing.

Awesomeness

Kearney is an attacking threat. Not from his strike running but from his ability to claim high balls that sexton or that he puts up himself gains us a lot of yards

stephen_n

Buer wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from but I think even his detractors know how good Heaslip is and simply don't like the guy too much; you're not the test Lion two tours in a row and an IRB nominee without being undeniably world class.

RK is someone his detractors don't see what he brings to the table or don't like the type of player he is. Plus, he's not at the level that Heaslip is overall, I reckon.

He's still a few levels above Zebo at this point in time though.

smiley_face

clsmooth wrote: »

True, I'd rate Heaslip ahead of Kearney overall as well. Although many of the detractors want Heaslip to burst through tackles etc and want Kearney to slice through defenses in attack. Kearney is a 'boring' and 'solid' choice at 15. But his ability in the air and positioning are world class, and he's not a player an opposition team can target easily. Fingers can be pointed at his counter attacking, his one on one defense and vision for picking a pass, but for the game teams play in the northern hemisphere and we play in Ireland, he's a perfect fit.

I know the point you are trying to make, that his reputation as a good challenger in the air and that he will always look to do the same simple thing with the ball which leaves little margin for error is why he is a good fit for our boring and non-counter attacking play from fullback i.e. Look for the nearest person that will ruck over him and go into contact and hit the deck in front of his support.

I'd challenge that evaluation, and suggest we have at least 3 players between Jones, R Kearney and Zebo that can execute exactly that gameplan, and Jones and Zebo possibly more in terms of counter attacking, vision and pace.

Also trademark moves such as kicking the ball back to the opposition, up and under kick-chases, and sporadic attempts at a drop goal, are other facets of the Kearney mold that can be easily replicated by either Jones or Zebo.

To be fair to Kearney though, he has specific instructions no doubt and he may not be allowed try anything special.

molloyjh

smiley_face wrote: »

Speak for your self, I disagree for one anyway.

Anyone think Zebo could actually take Kearney's heretofore unchallenged No. 15 Jersey with a good performance?

Zebo replacing Rob Kearney at full back!?

clsmooth

smiley_face wrote: »

Unchallenged in that Jones wasn't really given an opportunity to challenge during the 6 nations with such a paucity of match time.
Kearney played every minute of the 6 nations in 2014 IIRC too.

So he's the only consistent member of the back 3 who started and won back to back 6 Nations. Fair enough he didn't do anything exciting, but who did? And far more importantly I don't remember him making any serious errors.

Buer

One thing I'll always point out when people ask what's his purpose in the team is to think back to our games and try to remember how many times the opposition managed to win territory with a kick to touch. It's a rare sight for that to happen against us which has a huge impact on how our defensive structure can be set.

He's not an exciting full back but he's not in the team to be one.

.ak

smiley_face wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure, I can't remember Kearney doing anything special in the 6 nations, and gives no excitement when running the ball or joining the line as a strike runner.
Horses for courses, depends on opposition I suppose.
The one thing that stood out in my memory in the defeat to Wales was the loss of a lot of high balls, Leigh Halfpenny is small compared to most fullbacks yet was able to rise above and claim the ball in the air, among a few other Welsh players.
I hope whoever plays in the back 3 in the World Cup will redress that.

Thank feck excitement doesn't win you trophies.

I can't think of one fullback in the world, bar maybe la roux, that has a better positional radar. I think it's the basics that people overlook when they look at RK. People don't remember his performances because he didn't make that scything run, or that offload, or setup that counter attack.... But people are all too eager to forget the ignore the basics he does well; the ground he covers, his positioning, his aerial skills, his kicking game, his physicality, his handling, his communication, his decision making. All boring things but that's what wins you game.

clsmooth

Buer wrote: »

I can see where you're coming from but I think even his detractors know how good Heaslip is and simply don't like the guy too much; you're not the test Lion two tours in a row and an IRB nominee without being undeniably world class.

RK is someone his detractors don't see what he brings to the table or don't like the type of player he is. Plus, he's not at the level that Heaslip is overall, I reckon.

True, I'd rate Heaslip ahead of Kearney overall as well. Although many of the detractors want Heaslip to burst through tackles etc and want Kearney to slice through defenses in attack. Kearney is a 'boring' and 'solid' choice at 15. But his ability in the air and positioning are world class, and he's not a player an opposition team can target easily. Fingers can be pointed at his counter attacking, his one on one defense and vision for picking a pass, but for the game teams play in the northern hemisphere and we play in Ireland, he's a perfect fit.

smiley_face

clsmooth wrote: »

Why do you say 'unchallenged' when you just disagreed with a previous posters opinion of Jones being the weakest player in the match day 23? Jones is his competition, and if you feel he doesn't challenge Keanrey for the 15 jersey, then you're agreeing with the fact that Jones must be the weakest member in the 23.

Unchallenged in that Jones wasn't really given an opportunity to challenge during the 6 nations with such a paucity of match time.
Kearney played every minute of the 6 nations in 2014 IIRC too.

smiley_face

clsmooth wrote: »

Not a chance. He needs a good performance to seal his place in the squad. Kearney is treated like Heaslip on here. Many will only miss them when they're gone.

I wouldn't be so sure, I can't remember Kearney doing anything special in the 6 nations, and gives no excitement when running the ball or joining the line as a strike runner.
Horses for courses, depends on opposition I suppose.
The one thing that stood out in my memory in the defeat to Wales was the disappointing loss of a lot of high balls, which hurt our gameplan hugely in terms of possession and territory, Leigh Halfpenny is small compared to most fullbacks yet was able to rise above and claim the ball in the air, among a few other Welsh players.
I hope whoever plays in the back 3 in the World Cup will redress that.

clsmooth

smiley_face wrote: »

Speak for your self, I disagree for one anyway.

Anyone think Zebo could actually take Kearney's heretofore unchallenged No. 15 Jersey with a good performance?

Why do you say 'unchallenged' when you just disagreed with a previous posters opinion of Jones being the weakest player in the match day 23? Jones is his competition, and if you feel he doesn't challenge Keanrey for the 15 jersey, then you're agreeing with the fact that Jones must be the weakest member in the 23.

Buer

clsmooth wrote: »

Not a chance. He needs a good performance to seal his place in the squad. Kearney is treated like Heaslip on here. Many will only miss them when they're gone.

I can see where you're coming from but I think even his detractors know how good Heaslip is and simply don't like the guy too much; you're not the test Lion two tours in a row and an IRB nominee without being undeniably world class.

RK is someone his detractors don't see what he brings to the table or don't like the type of player he is. Plus, he's not at the level that Heaslip is overall, I reckon.

clsmooth

smiley_face wrote: »

Speak for your self, I disagree for one anyway.

Anyone think Zebo could actually take Kearney's Jersey with a good performance?

Not a chance. He needs a good performance to seal his place in the squad. Kearney is treated like Heaslip on here. Many will only miss them when they're gone.

Buer

smiley_face wrote: »

Speak for your self, I disagree for one anyway.

Anyone think Zebo could actually take Kearney's Jersey with a good performance?

Don't think there's any chance whatsoever of that. RK is one of those players that Schmidt has marked as central to how he plays the game, retains possession and governs the backfield.

smiley_face

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

He may be testing out Zebo today.
...
I think all here would agree that Jones is the weakest player, furthest from international standard, that we had in our 23 last year.

Speak for your self, I disagree for one anyway.

Anyone think Zebo could actually take Kearney's heretofore unchallenged No. 15 Jersey with a good performance?

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Which is the exact opposite of how it was suggested that Schmidt uses subs.

He may be testing out Zebo today. But with no contender or alternative style player up to R Kearney's level, a tactical sub at full back has not been an interesting substitution for Ireland to consider.
Too late for them now but had Earls or Fitz proven to be capable of playing international level fullback, then they would have been an option as better strike runners or counterattackers from 15 than Rob and so an interesting change of tactic if game circumstance needed with 20-30 minutes to go. But they arent.
Zebo may well still have the possibility to develop into that role.

Without one of the above, Joe is choosing the safe defender who plays full back most naturally. So a stop gap to hold the fort if RK is injured rather than be a strength in his own right.

I think all here would agree that Jones is the weakest player, furthest from international standard, that we had in our 23 last year.

[Deleted User]

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Jones is break-glass-in-case-of-emergency only sub for Joe.
He is not part of any proactive strategy for use as an impact sub, x factor game changer, exploiter of tired defences late in a game, etc.

Which is the exact opposite of how it was suggested that Schmidt uses subs.

sydthebeat

aimee1 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/clubs-and-provinces-to-receive-4m-from-irelands-six-nations-success-31452140.html

hopefully that gets filtered down to teh clubs....

leinsters semi final appearance might hahelped, but the big christmas aviva game against bath wasnt a success

Buer

Wang King wrote: »

Didn't Joe say at the time that Zebo was carrying an injury?

Don't think he said he was injured but had some "wear and tear" and then brought him as the 24th man....was all a little peculiar.

Wang King

Didn't Joe say at the time that Zebo was carrying an injury?

total former

Interested Observer wrote: »

Yes, plus the poster didn't specify the most recent 6N, Murphy did replace TOD on the bench in 2014 to much howling and outrage and Denis Leamy articles in the paper and all sorts.

The 2014 6N isn't really relevant. Just ask Fergus McFadden and Gordon D'arcy.

total former

Clearlier wrote: »

Didn't Fitz come in for Zebo?

Doh!

[Deleted User]

Clearlier wrote: »

Didn't Fitz come in for Zebo?

Yes, plus the poster didn't specify the most recent 6N, Murphy did replace TOD on the bench in 2014 to much howling and outrage and Denis Leamy articles in the paper and all sorts.

Clearlier

total former wrote: »

We didn't see any rotation of the bench options, TOD only came in because of injury to Heaslip. There were no changes made in the 6N that weren't injury-related.

Didn't Fitz come in for Zebo?

total former

stephen_n wrote: »

I think we all know what the best 15 is, but we haven't seen any player under perform yet and hold their place. I don't think Joe would pick on sentiment, if a player wasn't performing in training, they'd do well to hold their place, regardless of hierarchy. We have seen the bench options rotate to suit games in the 6N, the likes of TOD and Murphy swapping in and out, I
Think it's considerably different than the Eddie scenario, which is probably what's driving the consistent level of performance, there are no free rides.

We didn't see any rotation of the bench options, TOD only came in because of injury to Heaslip. There were no changes made in the 6N that weren't injury-related.

The Rape of Lucretia

jm08 wrote: »

Felix Jones would not agree with you - 23 minutes of playing time in the 6Ns, the only unused sub v. Scotland (Eoin Reddan got 1minute) and even less time than Felix Jones overall (19 mins). Iain Henderson usually got about 10-15 minutes when Toner was completely wrecked.

Jones is break-glass-in-case-of-emergency only sub for Joe.
He is not part of any proactive strategy for use as an impact sub, x factor game changer, exploiter of tired defences late in a game, etc.

jm08

stephen_n wrote: »

I think we all know what the best 15 is, but we haven't seen any player under perform yet and hold their place. I don't think Joe would pick on sentiment, if a player wasn't performing in training, they'd do well to hold their place, regardless of hierarchy. We have seen the bench options rotate to suit games in the 6N, the likes of TOD and Murphy swapping in and out, I
Think it's considerably different than the Eddie scenario, which is probably what's driving the consistent level of performance, there are no free rides.

The under performance of the whole team wasn't due to the players getting an easy ride - it was down to their conditioning and lack of match day practice. I'd imagine any of the subs or squad would have similar issues as the starters.